Yes, I like HTs, but they don't (like Lionessrose et al) do that well with our cold winters. I do have

1. Elizabeth Taylor (my favorite HT)
2. Paul Shriville
3. Black Cherry
4. Tournament of Roses

that have overwintered. But many, many, many others :) haven't made it. But I keep trying new ones (just one or two a year).

However, Austins, Mordens, Explorer do MUCH better at overcoming winter. I've found that Austins do the VERY best. There is no BS here, so that doesn't worry me.

Carol

It's funny Maryl, my small gardening space is why I don't have HT's, at least not many. I, like Joebar, love floribundas. For the same space you get 5 or 10 times the number of blooms. I am never without cut roses in the house. One snip on a floribunda and you have a great bouquet. I want them to look good in the landscape and in the vase and floribundas and Austins do that best for me.
Nancy

Certainly, they aren't for everyone and isn't that the case with many things?

Still, it is difficult to drive down the street in Santa Cruz, or for that matter Santa Barbara, and see them in absolute splendor, laden, dripping with, spilling over with... perfect blooms and not be moved.

Having now driven around the block on this issue (so to speak) I feel it's more important, actually more imperative to be completely frank, that one grow precisely whatever rose(s) moves one emotionally and do whatever is required to care for them.

The notion that one "needs to" or "should" stick with certain classes of roses strikes me as being dismally constrained.

It becomes tiresome, if not downright sad, to see people who were once enthralled with particular hybrid teas settling for something else because that something else is "healthier."

One imagines such folks standing around at their 30th high school reunion gazing longingly across the floor at Jimmy McWright, their first true love, knowing that their life has been wasted without him...

...and still, when that point in the evening comes, they'll stand by their Mr. Wrong and talk about all his success down at Wrong, Wrong, and Wrong and how they vacationed in the Turks and Caicos last season, etc. etc., blech, blech, blech... ad nauseum. Later still, on the drive home they'll discuss who's had implants... and how 'good' they look.

Really now.

So, to recap:

1) One should grow the roses one wishes to grow

2) If that necessitates spraying then one should spray

3) If one does not wish to spray then one shouldn't grow roses at all if it means settling for roses one does not wish to grow.

M

Nancy, you also like cut flowers then like I do, so I'm sure that you would agree with my statement that the class of the rose doesn't matter, just as long as you are pleased. Not all Floribundas are profuse bloomers or good cut flowers, just as not all HT's are those things either. That's the fun of this game called gardening; finding out what you like and what works for you. The question was: are you a fan of HT's and I have to say yes, I am. It doesn't mean I don't grow other classes of roses.

I like the variety, everything from species,old gardens, to ht's etc. My first ht's were dainty bess and she has certainly given many of my ogrs a run for their money. I like so many, and I don't hold their "class" against them. It's more about them as an individual.

My knee-jerk response is "if you don't like hybrid teas, get off the modern rose forum and go to the Antique Rose Forum".
Many people here grow hybrid teas, and it sounds very insulting to me to have your dislike of the roses I, and many others, absolutely love, thrown in my face. I don't go around saying I can't stand antique roses (actually, I enjoy them all), so I expect the same courtesy in return. You don't have to grow a single HT, nobody is insisting on it, that I've noticed anyway. There are some awfully nice people over on the Antique Rose Forum, I'm sure you'll enjoy it. Sorry to sound off a bit, but this has come up before, and frankly I think it is just rude.

i apologize if this was insulting;it was not my intention at all.i am particularly frustrated with one (HT) right now. i actually would have more if they were as robust and hardy as some of my others. for me, i like to solve puzzles, and these roses are like rubik's cubes to me lol. i love all roses- don't get me wrong. i thought that these forums were to vent, discuss and build camraderie and solve problems. there are great people that i am familiar with on here and have recieved a great deal of info and help. my garden is proof that i must be doing something right through much trial and error and research.
For those who took this thread personally, this wasn't about you per se; it was about a plant :)

No need to take it personally, mossy. I recall a few modern roses besides Hybrid Teas.

I'm sure there are those among us who view any expression of opinion with which we disagree as rude. If so, we might rethink why we are reading a public forum.

I like all roses, but I am drawn to some more than others. One in particular I photographed today has found a place on my favourite list.

Neptune
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I wasn't aware that this was the "Modern Rose Forum." The header reads:

Roses Forum

This forum is meant for the discussion of roses--how to care for them, recommendations for selections, sources for plants, etc.

Mossy, you seriously need a longer fuse.

Deanna

My favorites are the floribundas... I don't cut roses to bring in much, and I don't give them away... I want a garden full of color, and floribundas have more flowers on them...

When I drive by a house with HTs out front I just wish they would plant something in front of the HTs because they look so silly with just the flowers on the top of 6' stems...

The HTs I do have, I try to cut down to 12" in the spring so that the bottoms aren't so bare... They are surrounded by lavender and daylilies in either case, so you can't see the bottoms...

My favorite HTs are: Chicago Peace, flaming peace, fragrant Cloud, Ingrid Bergman, Lasting Love, Marilyn Monroe, Nancy Reagan, and Neptune

Perhaps one day when I have more property, I'll plant a cutting garden in some back corner and can experiment with more HTs...

I don't see any reason for you to apologize joebar.
This forum is full of opinions and mossy was out of line to jump on your comments like that.
All are welcome to their opinions so I was shocked to see that post and I don't think there is any place for that here.
Perhaps a chill pill is needed.
Please feel free to offer your opinion anytime.

Beautiful photo of Neptune, Kayli. Such beauty in form and fragrance is why I love and grow Hybrid Teas (as well as all the other roses).

i am a rose slut-they all come home with me ; ) But not everyone gets to stay.

Why settle when there are so many to love?

I love most of them as well. There are some individual roses that don't do anything for me. I think that's just part of being human! We do tend to put those who look like they belong in the military (love that mental picture, Jeri) in the back yard, and have put a lot of the fuller Austins, floribundas and shrub roses out front.

:0) Phyl

I, too, don't see the need to criticize any particular class of roses. Or to try to create some theory of evolution, replete with snobbery, based on the likely transition to OGR's. Most of us begin with HT's because they are so available. We learn about other types and move on. However, that doesn't mean one still can't appreciate the unique qualities of a Hybrid Tea Rose.

I also find it silly to try to characterize all Hybrid Teas with phrases like "hard to grow", "bare-legged", "flowers on sticks" or "pointed blooms". Grown well, HT's can be rounded, bushy and foliated to the floor. Some of my HT's, such as Peace and Heirloom, produce nice, soft, rounded blooms without any points at all!

Even the most awkward form can be worked into a mixed bed with perennials and annuals to produce a stunning effect. That's the fun part of landscaping.

I like all types of roses. I grow many types of roses. I fail to see one type as superior to any other.

Being a newbie to rose growing, right now I am not biased in any way. I do love the form of a HT, but I also love the big cabbage rose form too. I just planted 2 own-root HTs; if they make it through next winter, I will be pleasantly surprised because New England winters are tough. I guess perhaps we shouldn't have expectations that are too high. I like the challenges roses throw at us. You just never know.

If my HT's survive til next year, I will probably follow Decobug's advice to cut the bushes down to 12" in the spring. Decobug, does that actually minimize the legginess associated with HT's?

My, hasn't this been a fiery little thread--and just when I'm about to shovel prune 3/4 of my HTs because they are the most prone to bs, deer, and bugs. Despite claims to disease resistance for many of them, they are the least hardy, not including winter. Maybe it's because they are all on grafts. At the moment, all my HTs are naked twigs. I'm no-spray and am not willing to poison the environment for the sake of a pretty bloom. I know there are exceptions, Queen Elizabeth being the only one I have.

When I suggest to clients they put in a few roses, the first response is always, "Oh. I've tried roses. They are so much work and they all just get sick and die." Invariably, they have tried HTs they get in the local nurseries. I have to reeducate them, convince them to try other kinds. So HTs have given roses a bad reputation.

That's my experience and consequently my opinion. Nothing personal. If you can grow them, more power to you.

It minimizes the length of the legginess... Since the new canes pop out of the existing growth and the length that the new canes will grow is predetermined by the cultivar, you are still going to have blooms up above the lower part of the bush. Long Canes is the main attraction for Hybrid Teas so that they make superb bouquets...

For Instance, I trimmed Peace down to 24" because she is new and I wanted to encourage growth, well now she is over 4 feet tall, and the 24" canes are just there with nothing growing out of them...

The thing you really want is basal breaks. These will come from the bottom rather than the existing canes, and they can cause flowers to bloom shorter up the bush, as well as make the bush more rounded...

Another thing I do is right after the first flush I cut down the canes to make the bush rounded and not so tall, that way the second flush is at about the right height...

It's all about knowing the individual flowers, what height they want to be, what height you can make them be, and interject them into an overall scheme of beauty and harmony...

Hoov, Well said.

Carla
grower of Some HT's

IMHO, HTs do not make good garden plants. The habit is all wrong, the blooms are gorgeous but one per stem does not produce very many blooms and it looks awkward next to plants that bloom profusely. They are also not very cold hardy in my garden and their repeat is much slower compared to other roses. They usually have those ugly bare feet and plants in front restrict air circulation and thus make them more susceptible to BS. If I wanted to grow them, I would plant them in rows like corn and have them in a not so noticeable location.

But, that's just MHO.

Barbara

"I'd rather grow a rose that has some history behind it rather than something manufactured last year."

ingrid vc, I really do not care who grows what, but don't you think that is a rather broad statement to make regarding HT's? Seems to me they've been around for some 140 years.

Decobug, thanks for the info. I see you are also in zone 6a, so maybe my little HT's do have a chance. That being said, from the comments and opinions made on this thread, I'm glad I only invested in 2 HTs!!

"I am a rose slut-they all come home with me ; ) But not everyone gets to stay."

Mauirose - that was the best laugh I have had in a while.

I guess those that can... grow hybrid teas. Those that can't... grow the easier varieties. :J/K!!!

I grow a nice mix of floribundas, climbers, hybrid teas, and ramblers, with lots of daylilies and clematis thrown in for good measure. Finding the right combination of bushy ever blooming floribundas with the right amount of hybrid teas thrown in between is part of the fun and challenge.

I see absolutely no reason not to try any or all of the various rose varieties if that is what makes one happy. If you aren't gardening to please yourself, then why bother? I refuse to let others dictate my likes and dislikes for me.

Remember, beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

In my neck of the woods, hybrid teas grow as they were intended to. I cannot resist them. But I also cannot pass up all the others that will grow here. I only wish I could grow all those old roses that are the only candidates for our East Coast friends. Thanks to Jeri for making me aware of Teas, Chinas and noisettes. I am only now beginning to try them as once, long ago, before I read the Rose Forum, I was told I could only grow Hybrid Musks, HTs, and floribundas in So. Cal. Nonsense! All roses are roses and I'm hopelessly afflicted.

I said I would stay away from hybrid teas because of their reputation for fussiness. I already had a few bodybags that I got super cheap, and a couple of those are doing smashingly.

Nevertheless, when Oklahoma opened her first bloom of her second flush, I promptly called my DS at work and asked him to bring home two more plants, lol! (He works at a landscape supplier's.) That fragrance! That form! That color! I think it is by far my favorite rose of mine so far. Of course, this is still my first year with it, and I may feel very differently by next Spring.

Oklahoma

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I grow around 40 HT bushes in Z6 Connecticut. I also grow climbers, OGRs, florabundas, minis, mini Floras, and shrubs. No teas yet--but one of these days I'll try to grow something like Lady Hillingdon.

zack lau - I tried quite a few Teas, and although I could get them to survive the winter, they just never could overcome the winter cold and hard pruning, and bloomed very infrequently. That is except lady Hillingdon, who has done just ok.

I have, I guess, mostly HTs. Of my 470 (+/-), I have about;

Climbers - 5
OGR - 10
Buck - 70
Shrub - 10
FL - 90
HT - 285

Now of course I know that my HT's will not survive my zone 5 winters, and I did have to sp 4 this spring, but they are the roses that I find the most interesting.

I, too, don't see the need to criticize any particular class of roses. Or to try to create some theory of evolution, replete with snobbery, based on the likely transition to OGRs.

Very well said, Harryshoe.

I grow different classes of roses, HT, OGR, floribundas, Austins, climbers. I do not find any class of roses as a superior to any other. Its wrong to say that floribundas or OGR, for example, are much healthier than HTs. There are disease prone roses in every class, as well as there are more or less disease-resistant roses in every class too. Also, insects, deer, and rabbits do not care what class of roses they eat.
I do not think itÂs harder to grow HT than any other rose, they all need to be shaped, watered, and fed to perform and look their best. From my observation, well cared for roses also develop better disease resistance with maturity

I like all roses, but not every rose excites me. If I do not care for some roses with unimpressive flowers, I wonÂt grow them in my garden no matter how much history is behind them.
I love huge, fragrant blooms, and that is why I grow my HTs. It's annoying when people criticize whole HT class using phrases like "flowers on sticks", "ugly bare-legged plants", "soldiers", and etc. You are the gardener, you have pruners, so you are in control how your plant, rose in particular, will look. Roses, as any other plant, have certain requirements to thrive. If their requirements are met, i.e. fertile soil, good drainage, enough food and watered, and plenty of sunshine, roses will grow new branches, from the graft or from the lower part of a cane. Roses do not stay one or two cane "wonders", if they are happy.

It takes some effort but itÂs possible to grow bushy and well foliated HTs. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words. All photos below are pictures of HTs growing in my garden.

VeteranÂs Honor (itÂs still a baby, only its second season in my garden).
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Peter Mayle, over 6 foot tall, 7"across flowers
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Bronze Star, with at least 6" across ruffled flowers.
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Yves Piaget, 5 foot tall by 7 foot wide, with 6" peony-like flowers
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Oh Alla, those are beautiful roses! Could you start a separate thread and explain your rose-growing regimen? I do find growing HTs to be much more difficult than the Austins or shrubs or ogrs. I don't do anything with my Bucks or knockouts, and they keep blooming. I must be doing something terribly wrong because my HTs don't look anything like yours!
cindi

I love all classes of roses and find it a bit difficult to understand why we would choose based on the class alone - i.e. statements like "I don't grow HT's.", "I don't like floribundas", "I only grow OGR's." One might have a special interest in a particular class, but to discount roses from any specific class is puzzling to me, unless it's for reasons of them being unsuitable for the local climate.

Different situations call for different types of roses in my garden. When we wanted something to scramble 15 meters up into our cedar, we chose Kiftsgate. When we wanted high centered cut flowers, we acquired Folklore, Gemini, etc. When we wanted something big to cover our arbour, we went for Parade. For a heavy bloomer with one glorious "Bam!" of a show, we have A Shropshire Lad. And for the neglected back terrace, where plants are ignored most of the year, there are flower carpets, and a Fantin Latour inching it's way up a Pieris japonica.

And some roses are simply grown because we fancied having one - the forms and colors of Pierre de Ronsard, and Moonstone really appealed to us. And we love the awesomely fragrant, voluptuous rich pink blooms of Peter Mayle (Alla, youe Peter Mayle is the biggest and most awesome I have ever seen). The striking yellow of St. Patrick. The unusual colour of Cologne Carnival. If it's a rose we really fancy, we are prepared to put in a bit of extra effort to make that rose happy in our garden.

Of course, knowing the particular characteristics of each class is useful in rose selection, but ultimately, we choose a rose as a rose, not as an HT, or a HP, or a Fl, or a Gr, or a B.

Roses like Frederic Mistral and Peter Mayle have gone a long way towards dispeling the myth that HT's are finicky and difficult to grow. Of all the nonclimbers in our garden, Peter Mayle is one of the most vigorous and healthy of all the roses in our garden, second only to A Shropshire Lad.

On the other hand, if I were to be a competitive rose show exhibitor, my criteria for rose selection would be very different.

I know I grow flowers on sticks but they are worth it to me. I have 5 Mr. Lincolns. I get lots more blooms from all my other roses but because the HT blooms less it makes it more valuable.
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mgleason, you're right of course, hybrid teas have been around for a very long time, and I must admit that I was thinking of the majority of hybrid teas that are commonly grown, which are of much more recent vintage. Reading over my comment I think I could have voiced my sentiments less strongly. On the other hand, hybrid teas don't know how to read and don't know how to log on to a computer, and it never occurred to me that people who like hybrid teas would take offense. I happen to love the old roses but if someone said to me "They're sprawly and too big, some of them bloom for about five minutes a year, I don't like those fuzzy, shapeless blooms and they just leave me cold" I'd have to agree with some of those assertions and wouldn't take offense at any of them. All I could say is "Oh, but they make me so happy in so many ways". Is that snobbery or some wish to be different or superior? No, it just comes from the heart.

Ingrid

So much beauty to choose from. I love my HTs. Nicely formed and packed with perfume. Some of them last and last as cut flowers and many bravely stand the heat when others with more fragile petals have burnt or shattered. I love all my roses. No group is better than another and soon it will all be so mixed up anyway. If your HT looks sparse below, then plant something at the base to fill in the gap. I look at my La France on her graceful long canes with her amazing tall buds and I try to imagine the spell she cast so long ago. Each plant has its own personality, faults and virtues. My philosophy is- Grow what makes you happy, and let others do the same.

ingrid - I take no offense to what you said, I was just pointing out the errors in your statement :>)

Happy belated birthday by the way!

Back when I knew little about growing roses, I planted mostly HTs--and had little success. Like some of you, I swore off them forever. Then I discovered Austin roses--it was love--I had to have them. When I had a number growing (plus some other rose shrubs), I realized one day I missed those big fat HT blooms. So I set up one path in the garden and planted some HTs along it (curvy path, so the HTs don't grow in the straight military line). By that time I had learned so much from this forum and the new HTs are growing well and looking so good. I wouldn't be without them, but everything else except that one HT area is either a shrub, or climber, or floribunda. So I think I have the best of all possibilities now.

As to the bare-legs/bare-knees on HTs--I really don't know what that means. Mine don't look like that. Nor do they look like sticks. Mine don't get as big and full as those of alla_pa (pics above), but my HTs do look much more like those than like those negative descriptions some other posters have given. Don't know what makes for the difference.

Kate

Joebar -- It's okay with me if you don't like the look of hybrid teas, but find rose varieties that do well in your micro-climate, either by asking local rose folks or by trial and error.

My first garden had all heritage varieties, but over the years I have come to love the modern roses too.

I grow many types of roses at my current home, ones that thrive here at the coast and can get by with minimal or no spraying.

Depends on what they are I'm not a fan of the leggy high center jobbies of the 60s thru 80's. I do like LaFrance and many of the earlier ones.

mgleason- thank you (It was a good birthday; I had chocolate)

Ingrid

Cindi in KS,
Thank you for your complement.
I do not think I will start a separate thread to explain my rose-growing regimen, because I do not want to sound as an expert. Everybody's soil medium and microclimate is different. I have years of experiece in gardening, but by no means I'm an expert, I believe that gardening is a life-long learning process. Probably, it's because I enjoy the challenge of growing a wide variety of plants, not just roses.
But I'd be happy to try together with you to figure out what should be done to make your HTs happy. If you are interested, email me through my GW member's page.

I started with HTs because my Mother said "that is what you want, they have large flowers" she was never a fan of floribundas, for example, or any flowers that were small en masse.

I am a variety girl so I like a little of everything. I love the Austins, they led me to some OGRs, I still like HTs and Floribundas. Shrubs are great but take up a lot of room.

When I asked one local grower why she didn't have any OGRs she said they were too big. That is my only frustration with HTs at all....that many people think that is all there is.

I do like the large flowers of HTs.

Mgleason and others, What I would love to know is how do people get bushes out of HT's. Look at Alla's pics. If I could master that, the disease wouldn't bother me as much.

Carla

Carla - I wish I knew the secret! Alla is right in that every one's garden is different. I do fertilize a lot, but in small doeses. I also really amend the soil, and add lots of organics like shredded leaves and mulch. I also winter protect some of my HT's. I can tell you this; it has taken me some 4 years on some of my ownroot HT's before they even start looking decent!

I'd suggest Artisty as a HT that looks good as a bush. It is a Jackson Perkins rose I've been growing since 2003.

It is typical for HTs to only grow at the top parts of the canes. If you start off with long canes after a winter, there will be no growth on the bottom parts of the canes. In some places, this isn't a problem, since no long canes actually survive winter. But, how bad this "top growth only" tendancy is depends on the variety.

Many of my HTs are bushy. It depends on the variety. Years of fertilizing with organics and a lot of water helps a lot. Some are just narrow (Andrea Stelzer).

this has been one helluva thread! i know how things can look in print and to those who responded positively, i thank you for your feedback. for the record, i do like the large HT blooms and i love the bushy growth on some of the pics on here-awesome...

I think adding lots of compost to the soil is very important for any rose, they respond to it by growing a few new canes every year. I noticed it after I started mulching my rose beds with mushroom compost instead of wood mulch; its much cheaper for me too. Of course, rose growth benefits a lot from plenty of water (especially when it gets really hot and dry) and enough fertilizer.
It's true that some HTs are genetically bushier than others. But I also believe in pruning. I don't think every Ht should be chopped down to 12 inches. I prune every rose, including HTs, differently depending on their growth habit.
Ill give examples for the three roses I posted pictures of.
No matter how much Ill fight, Peter Mayle wants to be very tall. His canes are very fat and strong, so they support nicely 3 foot or longer new spring growth. So I cut off about 2/3 of the canes leaving about 3 foot tall central canes with a cut made above the outward growing bud. The outer canes are cut more (on any rose), leaving maybe 2 feet, to form a nice shape. After a spring hair cut Peter looks kind of oval all around, this way hell grow flowers not only on the top. I try not to leave canes looking like long sticks. I try to cut above the places when the main canes branching out. I know, its not recommended leaving any branches growing inside of the bush and letting them cross with other branches, but I do not follow this rule. First of all, every branch will make a few new branches and the bush itself will look very full, well foliated, and produce more flowers. Secondly, next spring all those mechanically damaged from wind and rubbing each others canes will be cut off anyway.
If at spring pruning time, a cane looks aged or damaged, Im not scared to cut it off all the way to the graft, because I know that as soon as a rose looses one of the main canes, it sends a few new ones to replace the lost cane.
It is recommended to cut off all weak side growth of the main canes. I do not do that. Those weak short branches are good for growing foliage to cover the lower part of the canes.

Yves Piaget does not throw long strong canes, it has more graceful habit of growing, and it likes to be wider than taller. It is already a well-developed and mature plant. So the purpose of pruning in this case is to shape it up. I trim off only a foot or a foot and a half, as much as is needed to make the rose pretty from all sides. This spring I had to cut off two major canes, and now Yves is growing, probably seven new canes. It will allow me next spring to get rid off a few older canes to keep the plant younger and more floriferous.

Bronze Star almost every spring gets really bad canker and spring pruning leaves very few 18 inch or so ugly looking stubs. But she is a strong grower and in no time sends lots of stems and by the first flush shes already over three-foot tall ball and loaded with lots of huge flowers.

I continue keeping the pleasant shape of roses every time I deadhead them, even if "deadheading" means cutting 2 feet off.

Sorry for this long and probably not very clear explanation, its much easier to do or show than to describe.

Thank you, alla_pa, for that very helpful information. You must be doing something right--look at those gorgeous roses you grow!

Kate

Gosh, I think there needs to be some "chilling out" done here with some people. Since when is it so terrible to start a discussion such as this? I think some feedback was being sought after by the person who posted this, and I can't believe anyone would take it as a personal insult! I enjoy all the various types of discussions. That's what makes this discussion forum interesting.

The flowers of many hybrid teas are beautiful, but most hybrid teas are not attractive garden plants no matter what you do to them. Climate also factors in here. Some people love the flowers and don't care about garden form.

I like roses that have nice flowers and are also attractive shrubs, with little fuss. Where I live, this means that chinas and teas fit the bill perfectly. They make up the bulk of my rose garden. I do have a few of the older hybrid teas, and a few other older types of roses.

We all like different roses for different reasons, and that is what we should each personally grow. I enjoy hearing all the experiences people have with their roses. Sometimes it will prompt me to try some roses that I otherwise would not have tried. Other times, it has saved me money.

I am trying some of the new varieties that Roses Unlimited is selling that have been bred for disease resistance, as well as attractive growth habit. Many of these are hybrid teas and I am going to grow them in pots throughout the summer. If they can stand our hot and humid summers in a pot, with strictly organic means of controlling disease and feeding, AND still look attractive, then I will consider them keepers. (I feel pot culture is the ultimate test of a rose in a harsh climate).

Sandy