Cliff seems to have alot of success with polyanthas. He also grows many Lens HMs. I hear they bloom better in the heat than other HMs. Gregg Lowery was working with the Albequerque botanical garden on a dessert rose garden. I can't remember everything they planted but pernetianas and bourbons were important in that garden.

I don't know if this will make you feel any better, Ingrid, but this week we here on the usually cooler Calif coast also had 'crispy critters' from last week's ferocious winds, even from roses that are usually just fine with heat. I don't think any blooms could survive well in those conditions.

And we too have a "summer dormancy" between spring and fall bloom. To fill the gap we've planted a lot of heat-loving companion plants and enjoy the guara, gladiolas, agapanthus and naked ladies while our roses rest.

I don't think the clay soil is a problem - our roses and fruit trees love it. If the alkalinity gets to them we follow Jeri's advice and add sulphur pellets.

Mendocino rose's ideas about pernetianas sound good to me. Gruss an Coburg (which we love)survived the winds better than most. And old tea G. Nabonnand did pretty well too.

Ingrid, I am in the same situation as you are. Trying to find roses that can take the intense sun and heat here in Crete.
My experience is very limited so far, but I can tell you that Sombrieul is in full sun all day, without any problems. So is Archduke Charles and Blush Noisette.
Another rose I have, that I can highly recommend, is Colombian Climber. I bought this in winter 2008 without knowing anything about it, and am very glad that I did. It was the first to flower both last year and this, and was still flowering in December. It never seems to be without flowers in between.
It also has a lovely perfume. In fact, it doesn't seem to have any faults at all.
Help Me Find, now list it. They say that it was found by Victor Lens in 1929.
The New Dawn, was in full sun last year, and did extremely well. (This year she is in shade, climbing an apricot tree.)

Papa Gontier and Archduc Joseph, have both been banished to the shade, where, so far, they are both doing very well.
I do have Gruss an Aachen, SDLM, climbing SDLM, Buff Beauty, Marechal Niel, Devoniensis and Golden Celebration this year, but do not yet know how they are going to do in these conditions.
Daisy

Ingrid, Cliff is a very good idea.
Also what about the rose society in your area? Do they have a public garden? If they don't, they would more than likely have consulting rosarians who could advise you.

The Master Gardeners could put you in touch with the rosarians.

It gets very hot here, and when it is over 100, I often spray my roses when I want to. Often at night or in the morning, I think they should be cooled off. But even though we get the heat, my zone is barely 7, and that cannot be as hot as 10.

Good luck
Sammy

it hasn't been -that- hot at Huntington... , like maybe 80, but that's not that hot. I went last,last weekend and several roses had just started blooming and were fine, the next weekend (last weekend) when I went again, a couple of them had crisped buds. in particular, a purple bourbon ('Pierre de St.-Cyr')
I was really surprised. From what I could tell, it was in a partially shaded position. Most of the HT's, Polyanthas, Floribundas and Austins looked totally fine, and they were in more sun. (in fact the Poly, Flori and HTs are in blistering sun all day, all the time.)

so it's not like that bourbon was getting 100 degree temps or fried by the sun, it seemed like, to me. They did get a decent amount of wind in San Marino, though, too, because there were a good number of tree branches on the ground. (because I know we were talking about wind issues, here.. too)

Ingrid... You're zone 10, but you haven't said what your Sunset Western zone is. Do you not know what it is? That might help because it would tell more about your climate. Is it really windy where you are?

because... did you know that Huntington Gardens is zone 10?? (their zipcode is 91108 )

I think maybe you should just hang in there. Huntington is known for having amazing roses almost year round. People come from all over to see them.
I think maybe it's not just the hot/dry... there must be something else going on like other people are talking about. I don't think you should have to have a huge dormant season,... or that you should have to give up on all your roses, etc.. (maybe just a small dormant season? not the whole summer)

that other thread I was linking to had some interesting discussion about shade cloths, too... if you can't go with a tree to add a bit of shade. Or some kind of plant that helps to block/support your roses a bit.

Because there are plenty of people who live in dry zone 9 and 10 who have roses. Maybe it's just part of what you said, that perhaps they just need more time to establish? I guess they are getting enough water, right?
I wouldnt base your feelings on this one weekend with the crazy winds and weather we've been having.
Don't give up!
How long have you lived at your current place?

Here is a link that might be useful: Heat Tolerant Roses Thread.

I live in the Phoenix area, which is very hot and dry. I grow teas, noisettes, chinas, etc and am fairly new at growing roses (4 or 5 yrs or so). My roses looked great 2 weeks ago but are now mostly crisp and dry. It has been in the 70's and 80's lately and we had a couple days of 90+ a couple weeks ago. I pretty much accept that when we get into May, the roses will mostly go dormant and I take a "break" from gardening for the summer.

I start working out in the yard starting late August (short spurts as it is still very hot) and really get into it in October. My roses bloom mostly from October through April so that doesn't seem too bad. However, I haven't gardened anywhere else so can't compare.

We have had alot of dry wind lately and I think that has hurt the rose blooms. Sometimes I wish I gardened in a cooler, wetter climate but then there are probably drawbacks to those climates too. I was in the Denver area this weekend and was thinking how it would be to grow roses in an area that get LOTS of wind and goes from warm to cold in a couple days.

I do appreciate that I can grow teas, noisettes and chinas in my climate as they are incredibly beautiful. I would miss growing them if I couldn't.

I do try to create shade with trees, pergolas, etc but when it get really hot here, none of that helps much.

I would love to live in teh "perfect" gardening spot but that probably isn't going to happen (does it exist?) and try to do the best with what I have. My garden does has periods of real beauty and I appreciate those times and also know they won't last.

sammy, how do you find a Master Gardener or a Rosarian to talk to?

I'm frustrated, too, because... with all plants, not just roses, people seldom talk about their HEAT TOLERANCE, or whether they need winter chill to do well, especially in books. Like Sunset Western Garden is supposedly the bible of plants for these areas... but lots of people say, for example, that Chinese Magnolia don't do well out here, but SWG lists them as being fine in this zone... and I've seen them do well in some gardens...
and then SEVERAL of the rose books I have say Albas and Damasks and and and... all do fine within my zone (and higher!) they don't say anything about needing winter, but then people on the forums have grown them in my zone and haven't had luck with them.

I tried to call a garden once to ask for advice because they had several plants I was interested in and are close to me (so similar zone) they never called me back. :(

so what are you supposed to do? It's hard to know how to research a plant when there's so little information on hotter zone tolerances.

Aimee, you have Consulting Rosarians right here.

I am one.
Several other folks are.

Cliff Orent is a C.R. AND a rose judge, and very very knowledgeable -- ground-up, nuts and bolts knowledgeable about growing roses in hot, windy conditions.
There are several other C.R.s in the Palm Springs area, the Phx area . . .
Check the websites of those rose societies for a contact for them.

Even here at the California coast, where the summers have traditionally been mild and cool, the climate is growing hotter and drier.
No one here EVER had air conditioning -- we now have a.c. in one bedroom.
Here, roses bloom like dynamite through late Fall and Winter, through Winter into Spring, but when oven-like heat hits -- East winds off the desert -- blooms crisp, and the plants slow down.
It's natural.
And since I don't want to go out and deadhead in dry 90-Deg windstorms, that's just fine with me.
It's just part of the wheel of seasons. It's natural.

Jeri

Thanks Jeri, I do really appreciate you bearing with all my questions. :)
Can I email you sometime? I just feel like I don't want to bug people by keep bumping threads, etc...
(I'll probably keep doing that, too, though. :) :) )

Aimee, you can email me ANY time.
Occasionally, I disappear for a few days, to someplace where there's no internet access at all, but I'm otherwise at your disposal.

:-)

Jeri

hello Ingrid
Have you thought about R.Stellata mirifica or some of Harkness Hulthemia hybrids. I would love to grow the gooseberry leaved rose (stellata) and may have a punt as East Anglia is classed as semi-arid although we do not get the californian heat.

Ingrid, what I meant is that with temps only in the 80's now, if your roses are showing problems, is it a hot drying wind or lack of water right now that is causing your roses to show such problems? I know that later on the intense heat will be a monumental problem, but right now, is the problem related to water?

Just an anecdotal observation--in my hot, dry Ojai garden the Duchesse de Brabant was spectacular. Full sun too.

Colleen

Around here the Master Gardeners have a listing in the phone book. Also the State of Oklahoma has a site that gives you information about what to plant in Oklahoma. They list what is good, what is invasive, and there are even pictures of weeds.

For most rose questions the Master Gardeners refer people to the Consulting Rosarians. Those people are listed in the local and national rose societies. Since you found Jeri, she can give you all kinds of information.

Sammy

The other thing is, even EYE had roses dry out like potpourri through this period of very dry, very strong winds.
And we weren't (and aren't) that hot.

Dry winds suck the moisture right out of rose petals.
We just snap off those blooms and go on.

Nothing in nature is perfect.

Jeri

Ingrid, if you decide to try some of the Pernetianas, I remember that Luanne (I THINK it was her) had a gorgeous picture on the forum of Irene Churucca (Churruca?). If you do a search on the name on the forum, you might bring it up, and possibly some others too. Also, if you have the Vintage Gardens catalog, there are 5 pages of color photos of Pernetianas. If you don't have the catalog, go to their website and look at Colette Clement, Pilar Landecho, Golden Sastago, etc. - I don't actually have any of these, but their photos are beautiful. I also don't know anything about how Pernetianas would do for you, but since several people mentioned them, I thought I would tell you about these beauties.

Laura

I'd suggest three things,
1. Earthkind roses and
2. 3-4 rose classes that are more closely bred to wild roses that are native to warm climates in China: Old Garden Tea, China and Noisette
3. growing the roses listed above in partial or filtered shade , in your latitude.
"Earthkind" is a designation given to those few roses that won this designation after being tested, for 4 years and more, by scientists in test gardens in Texas. The winners of the Earthkind designation have proven that they are tolerant to both "drought and heat", and "do well in a variety of soils" and were grown with no chemical pesticides or other sprays.
Earthkind roses include China, Tea and Polyantha (a class that originated from a rose from the China class, X Rosa multiflora, another Asian rose, and others. I believe that roses that have more China in their breeding may be naturally more suited to warm climates.
"Mme. Antoine Mari" my favorite Earthkind rose. A pink Old Garden Tea that shows " exquisite delicacy" in its' bloom style.
Belinda's Dream
Caldwell Pink
Cecille Brunner (Polyantha-Old Garden Tea) I love the Spray form which is big enough (7 feet tall by nearly as wide) to cast shade on a row of shorter roses on its east or west side, My grandma, mother and I've grown one plant of the original form of this rose ,Mlle. Cecille Brunner" for c. 70 years. It appears to be quite long lived, and still blooms normally.
Ducher" a lovely white Tea. I love its fragrance.
Cl. Pinkie
Duchess de Brabant" nearly constant bloom.
Georgetown Tea
Mutabilis" China class. Nicknamed the " Butterfly rose" for its delicate blossoms of several colors.
Perle d'Or" Gold yellow Tea shaped blossoms. I've seen this grow to be 10 feet tall when left un-pruned.
Reve d'Or" if this frizzles, I'd suggest growing it against the Northern wall of your house.

"La Marne" a very pretty Polyantha with very attractive foliage.
"Seafoam" a white rose that has Rosa bracteata as a grandparent.

I grow many of my Old Garden Tea roses,China, Noisette, and Polyantha roses, in partial shade with only half a days sunlight and they all bloom normally, in Oakland, Calfornia. Latitude and altitude make a difference in growing roses in partial shade, if you live closer to sea level in Southern california I'd think your Tea, Noisettes, China and Polyantha roses could take quite a bit of shade and still bloom normally. Especially the roses of those classes named that have fewer than 35 petals, because roses with more petals need more heat to open.
My roses never frizzle even in the high 80's F.
You could plant a large circle, or oval of tall Old Garden Tea roses, for shade purposes, and put the smaller plants of China, Tea, Noisette and Polyantha within the circle where they would be partially shaded.

Lux.

Ingrid, may I be a pain in the butt and suggest mulch again. I know you said whatever you try blows away in the wind, but what about rubber mulch? Unfortunately, it's expensive (Sam's has it for about $8 a bag), but I was thinking you could pick up a bag or two and conduct an experiment. Use the whole bag around one rose. That will make it pretty thick and hopefully prevent a lot of evaporation. See how damp the ground underneath is at the end of the day. If it's at all damp, that's a plus and might be worth the investment. Also, when you water, do you really soak them so that the water goes deep into the root zone? I can't pretend to have any expertise about your conditions. Just grasping at straws here, but I know the bad effects of wind and sun. Keeping the root zone damp will keep it cooler, though at some point your heat will just get too hot for the plant to function and then it will stop everything until things cool down. Your roses are young and haven't had time to establish strong root systems that can withstand your conditions, so it may be too early to judge them. I would water more and baby them until they get better established which may take longer due to your harsh conditions.

Shade cloth comes in different densities and might not be a bad idea even just temporarily until your roses get a little older. I'm sure it could be tastefully done well on a pergola-type structure in place of the horizontal cross pieces. For a few years I sure would be ready to try anything to keep the roses I love.

All the best to you, Ingrid.

Sherry

Hi Ingrid,

I really don't have any advice as we're gardening in different climates but my heart goes out to you from one rose lover to another. Like you, my dream of a rose garden filled with glorious bloom hasn't come to fruition *yet* due to a very difficult garden site beset with numerous problems (shade, wind, gophers, tree roots etc). I know that no garden site is perfect but sometimes it just doesn't seem fair. But little by little there are ways to sidestep the problems so I know you'll find the roses that can survive.

Diane

Hi Ingrid, I feel your pain literally. Today, the hot dry wind was getting to me and I went into the house for a while and read your post. At least I don't feel so alone. Today, it got up to 92, southern wind gusting to 33mph, plummeting the fabulous spring flush, double yikes. Thursday, a record setting 99F predicted. But at least there not a freeze warning.

Crispy critter blooms are a way of life here as well. I can suggest some roses that do better than most.

The SdlM clan, you already have.
Stanwell Perpetual
Quatre Saisons Blanc Mousseaux
Maggie
LePactole
Spice
Ducher
Natchitoches Noisette
LeVesuve

I turned on the water sprinklers and that helped considerably. I hope those ladies who were harassing vuwu didn't see me wasting all that water...

I'll add t the water question Ingrid, do you hose, drip or ???

It's too late for me to reply at length but I want to thank you all from the depths of my heart for your concern, caring and great ideas and suggestions. I think I'm ready to put together a game plan that's based to a large extent on your input. I'll get back to you on that tomorrow.

Ingrid

Ingrid, there is another posting in this forum, something about get the shovel. The poster mentioned what a horrible rose Perle des Jardin is. Balls. And I posted a comment that come a hot dry August Perle des Jardin perks up, opens completely, and loves the heat. You might try it as it may be perfect for you climate. It is, when it is not a tight brown ball due to humid weather, a very nice rose of ivory.

newtie, I had Perle de Jardin in another hot dry garden. I don't remember it balling too much but of course there weren't that many blooms to ball on it. Thank you for the suggestion though.

This is my game plan:

1. Give the roses a chance to mature. I'll give all the roses I have another two years before I shovel prune ANYTHING. Patience is not one of my strong points but I think it's necessary in this case.

2. Mulch, mulch and mulch some more. I'm even looking into rubber mulch which I'd never heard about before, but feel a little skeptical about the idea. I'm going to get a few large bags of bark from the nursery and put that over my leaf mulch. Mulch in the long run is probably cheaper than water.

3. Consider putting up a pergola.

Lagomorphmom, I water with a hose. Drip systems just don't turn me on; I've used them before and don't like them although I know many of you swear by them. Greybird, I have Spice and Le Vesuve. Spice so far is drooping even though both of my plants get afternoon shade but they're young. Le Vesuve, of which I have four plants, does very well in the sun (that's why I have four). At this point I'm not adding any new roses, no matter how wonderful, until I find out how mine do in the long run.

harborrose, my roses get plenty of water. It's my site that's the problem. It's shaped like a half-bowl with the highest part above us, and the steep site and huge boulders just soak in the heat, even when the temperature isn't that high. It then reflects all that heat back onto the garden. A rosarian friend who visited in mid April when it was cool said he understood now what I was talking about because as soon as he stepped into the sun the temperature change really surprised him.

aimee, I'm not basing my feelings on one week. The same thing happened last year and the year before. On the other hand I've gardened here for less than four years and a lot of my roses are younger than that since many in my first batch were discarded and I bought new bands. I'm not sure what my Sunset zone is but I know my microclimate is not typical of my zone. Ebb Tide and Route 66, which I bought as 5 gallon plants, fried completely before the real heat of summer even set in. Abraham Darby, planted from a 5 gallon pot, drooped in his morning sun only spot. However, I think with time I'll be able to find out which roses do best in the sun, and those are the ones I'll grow.

Thanks again, everyone has been so wonderful and understanding. I think I'm going to concentrate less on moaning and groaning here and more on the joys that rose gardening can bring. My first blooms of William R. Smith opened yesterday. Beautiful!

Ingrid

Ingrid, I can totally understand how you feel. I have exactly the same problem here in dry,hot Melbourne. It is really disappointing to look forward to a whole huge flush of blooms and then when they finally do open, they get burnt to a crisp within the first two hours. In my experience I've found that the more established roses do better, and I don't mean three year old roses, I've seen the same roses grown by my neighbours and others (in rose gardens, etc), which are in full sun and cope much better than mine. These roses are normally atleast over 5 years old and have huge stems (like trees). I think you and I just need to give our roses some time to establish themselves. It probably takes longer in our hot areas than 3 years. Last year I mulched twice (in spring) and then 3 months later, and thought it helped a lot. Of all the roses I've grown, Tuscan Sun (its a modern rose, a floribunda) seems to take the heat really well. It blooms non-stop for 9 months of the year and looks really pretty. I know you don't like modern roses, but it doesn't have typical hybrid tea type flowers, its flowers are more informal, though I wouldn't call them old fashioned looking. Your new game plan sounds sensible. Also try watering very deeply on the very hot days (you probably do that anyway).
You could also google in "kelly's cottage garden roses" and come upon a website (outside Sydney) in Aus, where the weather is quite similar, she seems to grow the most wonderful old roses. I haven't personally been there yet. Don't be disheartened, dear Ingrid, your garden is beautiful, just give some time for your roses to establish themselves.
Cheers,
Sanju

And DON'T worry about moaning and groaning. We can handle it!! You're definitely worth the trouble, Ingrid.

Sherry

Oh, I think your plan sounds perfect.

Sherry

Hi Ingrid,
I know you said you're not adding any new roses. But after today, with the 98f temps, I could not resist to suggest more. Coquette des Blanches held up great all day, no crispies. All my Old Europeans, particulary the damasks, did remarkably well. The albas Semi-plena and Maximus did best of all, not at all fazed by the heat and direct sun all day.

You may not want one-bloomers. But if you have the winter chill for them, the wealth of the spring bloom is nothing short of astonishing. In my Old European bed that was established in the fall of 2008, many have already grown quite large. Bloom times amongst the different varieties varies, and it looks like the blooms will keep up for some time. The fragrance of the damasks is strong, heady.

At one time, I did not think I would want a rose that had just one bloom cycle. But I find these OGRs give me more blooms than the repeaters do all growing seasons.

To tell you the truth, I don't know if I could stand it If my Old Europeans bloomed all season, I would surely die from beauty and fragrance intoxication.

Something I was meaning to add: the more dirt your roses have to dig their roots into, and the better mulched they are, the better they'll do. Keep working on the soil, and keep a thick organic mulch on everything, if you don't already. It will keep the roots cooler and more moist. How the top part of roses do has everything to do with what's going on underground.
Melissa

Sanju, Sherry and greybird, you're such special people. It astonishes me how close I can feel to people I've never met, how in some way you feel like family. There's such warmth and caring here; it's not just about the roses. Perhaps it is at first, but then the names begin to assume different personalities with endearing personality quirks, and different points of view, but all united in this crazy passion we have for our roses.

Sanju, thank you for telling me about Kelly's cottage garden. What a beautiful place! Her site is definitely worth looking at. She has the garden I dream of having. Thank you even more for sympathizing with me and being so sweet and comforting.

Sherry, I feel as though you're my comrade in arms since we started our gardens more or less at the same time and of course we share our love for Le Vesuve. We have a lot to look forward to in the coming years. You have an unparallelled gift for expressing yourself in words; this forum would be so much the poorer without you.

greybird, I don't have the winter chill for the old European roses, although I've always admired them greatly. However, I'm happy to say that I have a little Coquette de Blanches, which I loved in a rosarian's garden nearby, and one bud is already showing a little color. I can't wait for it to bloom. To me it has that old European rose look and yet will grow for me, and bloom more than once. I love how you described your feelings about the once-blooming roses.

Ingrid

It gets very hot here in the summer. Caldwell Pink does well, so does Mutabilis and Buff Beauty, but my absolute best and fool proof rose is Perle d'Or, its similar to Cecile Brunner, but a much better rose and roots very easily. Maggie also does well.

"There's such warmth and caring here; it's not just about the roses."

Well said, Ingrid! This is an exceptionally positive forum.

Ahem....at the risk of going against this ;-)

Can you tell me what you didn't like about drip watering? (no judgments, I'm just a science-based, pushy problem solver ;-)

You know, Perle d'Or is not only an Earthkind Rose, it's also a U.C. Davis (CA) "Valley Star."
It's a WONDERFUL rose!

Jeri

aw, I'm glad you've got more of a gameplan now and aren't giving up. I know I don't know much, but I just can't bare to think that you cant grow a beautiful rose garden. I'm hoping what others have said is true, that it'll just take time and some adjustments, because... it just really seems that your situation can't be that extreme that you couldn't have a beautiful rose garden of your dreams, or something close. Good luck!

Hi Ingrid -- I don't have hot or dry, but I wanted to point out to you that Cliff is giving a talk to the Cal Coastal Rose Society on May 18 at 7pm at Heritage Hall at Magee Park in Carlsbad. He will bring roses to the meeting for you if you order them in advance and ask him to bring them. So . . . if you hear about something you want that he has, this is at least a way to avoid the cost and wear and tear of mailing them.

Kathy

Ingrid, I woke up this morning (or was it when I was falling asleep) thinking that I should have told you something else, and now my old brain is failing me. I think it was basically what Melissa just said. Be sure to use some organic mulch like manure compost under the rubber (or whatever you choose) and lay it on pretty thick. It holds moisture and will be transported down by worms, etc and will totally transform your soil, making it all more moisture and nutrient retentive. I recommended the rubber because it's heavy, but you definitely want to use the organic material as well (and spread it beyond the drip line for root expansion). I used oak leaves as mulch in the back last year and was very unhappy with it (but it was free!). If I had had 4" of it everywhere, that would have been fine, but in lots of areas it was thin, and the wind blew it away. Pretty soon I had no mulch over my compost. This year I bought pine bark mulch (more than $150 worth) and laid it on pretty thick but really only 2"-3". I was trying to make it go further. I hope I didn't make it too thin.

Take care.
Sherry

Ingrid, thanks for your lovely words. You do express yourself so beautifully. This is really a wonderful forum that I really miss when I don't have time to check in. It is really surprising that we are all conversing with each other from different parts of the world and still feel so close to each other. Just goes to show that distances, countries, etc don't really matter. What really matters is caring and sharing and spreading happiness around, isn't it? I love the people here, Lagomorphmom's description of herself made me smile.

I think you've got some great advice here from people. Like Sherry, I do mulch with manure too. It does help a lot. In some areas where my soil is totally sandy, the flowers dry out much faster, whereas some other areas where I've taken the trouble to mix in heaps of organic matter like manure and compost, the roses have done better this year.
Sanju

Thank you all, you lovely ladies. Jeri, dare I confess that I've grown Perle d'Or and it wasn't my cup of tea? It grew well, lots of flowers, big plant and yet my heart just doesn't yearn for it again. I do think that many of my roses will do much better when they mature.

When you mention manure, do you mean the actual raw product or are you talking about the bagged kind? I'd like to know what you recommend. My soil could certainly use it and I can see where it would get to work under the mulch and enrich the soil. It's not easy to get hold of the real thing and I don't know if the bagged kind is any good.

lagomorphmom, I think it's the clogged emitters that bother me and just the look of it. You can never hide the whole thing completely. However, we've started to implement a cutting garden in an out-of-the way place where I'm putting roses I like more as cut flowers than landscape plants, and that will not be hand watered. This will already be a saving in time and water since that area is shaded by the trees in the afternoon. I've already begun to mulch everything more heavily and hopefully I'll also be adding manure. Eventually I hope to keep or have only the best, most heat-resistant roses and cut down on their number once they become large so that the garden will be more low-maintenance.

aimee and sanju, thank you again for your support. It's so much easier with help along the way.

Thank you.

Ingrid

Well, if you want to splurge on the good bagged stuff, there's Black Kow. Lowe's (and others, I suppose) have their generic bagged composted cow manure. I usually buy them 10 at a time! If there are stables or livestock farms in your area, then you can get fresh and bring it home and let it rot in the sun. It doesn't take long. Or if they pile it up and let it rot, it's ready-to-go compost. You may have to shovel it yourself. My horse lady has a little front end loader, and she loads our truck for us. Horse manure does not smell, I'm told by a co-worker who has horses, because they are vegetarian. Beyond that, I only know it works. The bagged stuff is better than nothing.

Sherry

I know RogueValleyRoses recommends bagged chicken manure on their rose handouts!

Thanks, I'll try the chicken manure until I can see if horse manure is available. Some people nearby have emus; I wonder if that would work. They just had babies which look like watermelons with heads and feet attached. Too cute.

Ingrid

Yikes! Be careful with *fresh* chicken/bird manure. Dunno about emus but chicken manure is HOT and should be composted first. This is because of the concentrated ammonia compared to other manure.

Ingrid, re: drip...

I think drip is a solution of circumstance in each location: water thriftiness, time, location in the yard vs closeness to a water bib, etc.

For us, since we are not full time at the mountain weekend/retirement place it started as a necessity, so unlike my old pre-marriage house I couldn't procrastinate until I had planned it ever just so.

Also, it sounds like we may have less property, just 1/4 acre in all. *As far as unsightliness*, almost all of the 1/2" line is run either along the fence line, or under the rocks defining pathways or garden plots and doesn't show. The 1/4" line on the roses on the fence don't show at all because of the bushes, the rest where it shows now, the bushes are either growing to cover soon or I guess I can't care cause it's not much.

*As far as clogged drippers*, I'm with you on that one, but that's an easy one to fix at least for me and a time trade-off with watering, but I think I come out ahead. Have you tried 'FLAG DRIPPERS'? As I've mentioned umpteen times here on the forum our WW water you can 'bout stand a spoon in it is so hard. Flag drippers are great because the end (flag) can be either twisted or removed. Twisting usually releases the mineral buildup, if not or if there is debris in the line, you can take the end off to clear the line. The latter mostly happens on drippers to the end of the line. In the summer I do this when the drip is running ;-) The ones that I get aren't anything special, I get them at Lowe's. For roses, with the hard water, I usually use two 2gal drippers per plant (none are more than 6x10'). Since, ad nauseum, we are so hard, I check to see if they are running well every couple of weeks, but still, this is less time than watering. This last year, after oh, 3 years I guess, I got another set of drippers to change out so I could soak the existing ones in hot vinegar to clean them. I'll swap them out as I prune/fertilize again in a year or two now that I've had this idea (saves time on the knees/back to do it all at once).

*Re our environments* Well, I think I can top you on dryness, it was 9% 'humidity' when we came up on Friday morning, BUT only 70deg. In the heat of our summer we only get a month hovering around 90+. When the daytime gets warm enough, I switch the drip over from morning to evenings so the plants have more access to the water. This is a foreign idea for me growing up by the coast as evening watering of anything only promotes fungus; however, someone up here suggested it and since we are so dry it made a lot of sense and I could see the improvement.

*Re since you asked for opinions* Ok, since you asked (and just my opinion, you know how I love to share ;-) so not a judgment) but based on a small slice of similar weather, humidity, and as I recall you also have decomposing granite soil as a base, a couple of thoughts...

You said your roses get enough water, but it would seem not the case if they wilt so quickly, right? - OR, so to speak maybe the *AVAILABLE* water could be improved (???), which is where I *subjectively* anyway think that the drip gives me an advantage, at least on my weather/dirt - more water gets to the *deep* roots, less to evaporate, and better still, less weeds. Otoh, I do still need to hose water to work in fertilizer, alfalfa, etc.

All that said as I contemplate, I DO have an advantage of our pines that filter here and there a little bit during the day. Otoh, I do have more UV radiation at my elevation. TOO MANY VARIABLES!!! ;-)

I may have inferred that you had drip at a former house? If that is the case, it would be a really interesting experiment in your current location if you ran a short drip line off from your hose bib (you could put in a Y so you could still use your hose) and see if the dripped roses do better than before. That would be really interesting!!!

As for mulch, I keep adding over time and as everyone says, it just keeps improving, I've now actually found earthworms so I guess it's working ;-)

My very best to you, I hope you get this figured out so it best suits you and your garden!

Kerin

I don't use manure myself, but my understanding is that you can use fresh manure as long as it doesn't come in contact with the roots. I would put it on the ground, then cover with an organic mulch; and I would use less chicken manure at a time than I would horse or cow. Or you can let it dry out or compost first before using it.
I can hardly express too strongly the importance of organic matter in a soil that's poorly supplied with it. Our land is deep gray clay, and we've been keeping four inches of hay on it as a regular mulch for years, renewing it whenever it gets thin. (We also reincorporate all organic material coming from our garden plants, mown grass, weeds, etc.) You may remember the forty-odd (long!) tons of rotten hay we bought two years ago: well, it's nearly all used up. I was out looking at the Biscione yesterday, a long bed of particularly poor soil that we began in 2005: the mulch has gotten thin and the soil is still gray! On the other hand, roses are beginning to grow there and the whole almost begins to have a thriving look; this in a place where Bermuda grass barely survived when we began. We just heard about a fellow up the valley who has a lot of two year old hay, too old for livestock, that he may be willing to sell. The hay is worthless to anybody but us, but we're paying for transport and labor. I'm glad that we're going to resupplied, because we still need it.

Melissa

Ingrid, I normally buy the bagged manures from the nurseries (chicken and cow). The chicken has worked much better for me. The bagged ones are normally composted, so they can just be put straight on the ground around your roses (just keep them away from the stem). You will notice that the soil holds the water much better, and does not dry out as quickly.
Sanju

Ingrid, Horse or chicken manure just isn't available here, but fresh donkey manure is.
What I have done, is mix a good amount of the donkey manure in the bottom of the planting hole. Then I plant the rose in a large cardboard box on top with some bagged compost mixed in. Then I add some fertilizer and mulch heavily.
The donkey manure should have rotted down by the time that the cardboard box rots, and the rose roots reach it.
Having said that, there are still lots of roses that simply cannot take the intense sunlight on their petals, no matter what precautions you take. It is just a journey finding out which ones!!!
It has been extremely hot here for the last couple of weeks, but all the roses I recommended in my previous post are still unaffected.
Daisy

Timing is everything, right? Yesterday I was in Lowe's and saw a product called Hydretain. I have googled it and found an old post from the GW Florida Forum. Also this link is informative. Their price is outrageous though.
http://www.composters.com/garden-products/ecologel-organic-hydretain_200_7.php

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: My Hydretain thread on Fl Forum

Here's a link to the manufacturer - which happens to be in right here in Ocala!!! Read the testimonials. I'm headed to Lowe's.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: Hydretain website

Say Ingrid, have you tried an anti-transparent? I had this thought yesterday but couldn't remember the name of what I used. Low and behold, there's a nice thread over on the roses forum about them (especially summer dosage). I wouldn't count on them for fungus, but you may find it gives you just enough protection from the heat.

Here is a link that might be useful: For Henry Kuska

I've tried an antitranspirant before, although not in this garden, and wasn't overly impressed. I've looked at the product that Sherry suggested, and which sounds great, but it needs to be reapplied every three months. For health reasons I have rather limited resources of energy and almost anything extra than what I'm doing already (which includes working) is just too much for me with 92 roses. But thank you so much for all your helpful suggestions; I can't tell you how much I appreciate the willingness and kindness of so many people to address my problem and offer solutions.

Ingrid