MANY excellent points in this thread! "Obsessives" (myself included) would want to offer every rose possible. Unfortunately, that is a guaranty for failure. The only way to succeed is to offer only those varieties which propagate quickly and easily, producing the highest quantity of Grade 1 plants, using the methods you prefer; limit the number of varieties to what you can realistically handle and primarily to only those which SELL in large quantities. It is/was wonderful for obscure and unusual beauties to be so readily available, but you can't make the required return on investment to make them pay their way. At best, quantities will always be limited compared to the ones which sell due to their names and reputations. And, very many of them were absolute witches to propagate, which is probably why many of them fell out of commerce as quickly as they did. I'm sorry you have to work outside your passion to keep the doors open, John. That has been the case with MANY nurseries here in the US for easily the past fifteen years. Michael's Premier, Amity Heritage, Spooner's Oregon Minis, Tiny Petals and a host of others, including Vintage, had to resort to generating the necessary outside cash flow to permit them to continue their passions. The reasons are legion, but most boil down to too few have too limited resources to support most businesses and products. Without becoming too political, I think we're all familiar with the underlying sins responsible for our shared current mess. I don't know what the figures are here currently, but by the late 90s, early 2000s, the basic wholesale cost to produce a quality, budded, unpatented bare root in any quantity was $2.25. That is what it cost Arena and Ashdown to produce budded, unpatented roses. Perhaps larger concerns could shave a few cents off that price due to quantities, but the labor cost was fairly standard across the industry for stock produced in Wasco, CA due to the unionized Irish Farms which supplied the majority of labor services to most in the area. Patented and "specialty" types (Austin, Poulsen, etc.) varieties had royalty costs added. We've had the "luxury" of "dumping" excess, unsold stock as well as the "culls", those which failed to develop into at least Grade 1.5 plants, to mass merchant suppliers who offered them as cheap, canned, bud and bloom plants. It has been common to find patented varieties identified as older, unpatented types so the inferior plants could be sold to recoup their costs without having to pay the required royalties. Then, there were the "schlock producers" who supplied the cheap market. Their offerings were available in fairly large numbers to wholesale growers at costs of roughly $1.80 (not what they cost them to produce, but what they SOLD them for) each, bare root. These are/were the mostly misnamed, unpatented, usually fairly badly virused canned plants, usually produced by companies employing unprotected, "farm worker" type labor, you could often pick up for $10 (sometimes less) for bud and bloom, 5 gallon plants. It was common to find several varieties of fairly similar appearance all labeled as the same variety. We still find them at big box home improvement stores, but their ilk has more recently given way to stock from the remaining suppliers who used to rely upon larger independent nurseries to move their products. At one time, you would NEVER see Monrovia stock at a Lowe's or Home Depot. Now, it is common in my area. Sad. Kim

flora_uk: I agree with part of what you said..."For me the idea of buying in or driving to collect material for composting and fretting over ratios always has a worrying tinge of losing the point." Composting can be for more than one reason. Composting to reduce the load on our local landfills and to keep nutrients on our property is one thing. Composting to improve the overall quality of our garden soil is another. Buying alfalfa pellets to achieve the right C/N ratio is counterproductive if all I am trying to do is reduce my curbside waste. However, I am interested in creating a significant quantity of compost to improve the condition of my sandy Florida soil, so I may get better results from my garden. Leaf mold would work, but as this is my first year collecting leaves, I am impatient and do not want to wait 1-3 years for the results. So I have gathered more leaves than I think I need this year. Some of them are getting the extra nitrogen from alfalfa pellets (and some with 26-2-1), so I can get the end result this year. The rest will be left as-is and will be ready for use as leaf mold in the future. In the following years I will be able to have leaf mold, as well as mixing stored fall leaves and summer greens for compost. And I have to say this, my F-150 gets horrible gas milage, but it gets better milage than the big truck that drives around our neighborhood each Friday. I have brought home enough leaves to fill half of one of those trucks. I'll bet I have burned less gas and done less damage to our roads that that truck would have. So collecting a neighbors leaves, in my opinion, is a net gain for society. Convincing my neighbors to not put it out there in the first place would be better, but what I do is a close second. Everyone: I guess I understand it enough. 30:1, damp like a sponge, turned regular for oxygen, and it all works out quick and efficient. O, C, N and water are all present in proper ratios. Do this with a 3x3x3 pile and the optimal temperature part works out also. So is the problem with a 20:1, ratio too much heat? And too little heat with a 50:1 ratio? It would then seem that temperature control would allow for variations on the C/N ratio. Right? If the microbes are made up of N and water, and consume O and C to live, with heat and compost as a byproduct, then more N and water means more C and O is consumed, resulting in even more heat. With the wrong C/N ratio, there is either too much or too little mass (the C) to dissipate the heat, resulting in a non-optimum temperature range. At 30:1, as the carbon is processed the mass stays the same, so as long as O keeps coming, the temp and microbe activity stays steady. Once all of the carbon is processed, they die due to lack of food. At 20:1 (assuming O and water are non-limiting factors) there are too many microbes thriving, there is not enough space for the heat to spread to, so the microbes cook themselves. At 50:1, the microbes living do not heat up the pile enough to create the perfect temperature for the right microbes to thrive. Does this explanation sound reasonable? kimmsr: According to Britannica, via google, "Vegetable: In the broadest sense, all plant life and plant products (vegetable matter); in common, narrow usage, the fresh edible portion of herbaceous plants (roots, stems, leaves, flowers, or fruit), either eaten fresh or prepared in some way." Columbia University Press (also via google) says: "vegetable: term originally used for any plant, now the name for many food plants, most of them annuals, and for their edible parts." I think you are correct in your assertion that vegetable and vegetative are interchangeable in many cases. You were talking over me when you used vegetative and vegetable interchangeably. Well, you were, now I know. I always appreciate learning something new. However, in the context of discussing C/N ratios, greens and browns, I think it is confusing. I think vegetative= browns vegetable= greens is the most effective in communicating with the largest number of people. According to the above definitions, current, common usage agrees with this. Thanks.

Great forum here and a great education! I just picked up a Homelite 150 Automatic model UT 104324, serial number 380600059. It appears to have had little use, is completely old-school as far as safety brake and that sort of stuff, but I put a tank of 50:1 regular gas in it and it fired right up, idled just fine, and cut as well as its not-so-sharp chain could be expected to do. I have a couple of questions as I get to know and trust the saw, and any input is greatly appreciated. 1. Did I injure the engine with a short run of 50:1 fuel, and should the octane be higher than regular fuel? Should I definitely be using a 32:1 mix? 2. How do I know if the automatic oiler is oiling? The oil tank had oil in it, and I topped it off with bar and chain oil: how much oil residue should I see on the bar? 3. Does the safety tip wheel fit onto the roller tip bar on this saw, and can Bill Walcott send me one? 4. Is there a retro-fit toothy-poker plate available to mount on the engine face like more modern saws use? That seems like a good stabilizing/safety device. 5. Is the Oregon 72 the proper chain? The bar protrudes 16 inches past the engine face. Thank you all so much for what you have created here: this has been a great tool! Glen Moore, Seattle WA

You may have swung a little to the too N side (too many greens) of the pendulum. ;^) Once you got it hot, that's the sign that the mixture is right. If you keep adding greens, you are going to go the other way. 30:1 C:N ratio is the standard. A higher ratio 40:1, 50:1 is too brown and will slowly break down, but no stink, also no heat. A lower ratio 20:1, 15:1 is too green and may cause a stink, especially if it mats down and there isn't enough air flow. The bin has gone anaerobic and that's the stink. (good news: it is composting - bad news: the wrong bacteria are doing the work) To help, add some coarsely shredded corrugated cardboard (which has 'air vents' built in) or some straw if you have it. Mix that in the bin to the point that it is evenly distributed. This will help to put the bin back into balance, and will allow for more air flow through the "pile". That should eliminate the odor rather quickly. When it heats up again, just turn the bin every day or two to keep the oxygen levels up, and check the moisture level - not too wet, not too dry. DON'T add to the bin. Barrels like that need to be done more in batches than a continual addition process. Once this is finished, empty the bin, let it cure in a new location, and start a new batch.