Jim, if your wouldn't mind, could you describe your watering and fertilizing process during the season? Also, some description of the microclimate in your yard (wind plain, full sun, direction the beds face, etc.). And sorry if I don't remember correctly, but I think that you've had a soil test. Would you share those results with us? If you haven't had a soil test, you should get one.

Also mention where you're buying your roses from.

My main bed is in full sun no trees even close. Outside of a small hamlet with typical Upstate NY weather. Watering is normally by rainfall which we get enough of. Fertilizing I have been negligent and will increase it this year.

I buy all grafted on multiflors mainly from Pickeering and Hortico. The several own roots from Vintage have been mainly a total failure. I've had a couple of soil analyses which reported high P&K apparently adequate organic matter and a pH of 6.8. Somewhat low on Iron according to Berndoodle. Soil is mainly clay but drains well by my own digging a hole and watching the water drain.

Roses like Rugosa Alba is a true pest and I plan to dig it up including the 50 or so suckers that no doubt are sapping stuff from nearby roses. Roses like Jacques Cartier do fine as does Officinalis, Rosa Mundi, Hippolyte, Enfant de France and Fritz Nobis. To name a few.

Hybrid Rugosas in another bed also do fine. Elmshorn of my Kordes roses is a real champ also a few other K's.

Oh Jim, I would love to have Rugosa Alba.
If you could ship it soiless it couldn't be that much, guys?

Carla

What roses have done bad for you, Jim?

In my experience, Hortico's plants are often very very weak, Jim. Hortico also sometimes ship them very late, too late - without further notification they sent me roses in June after they had previously told me were not coming that season. These did not make it. And their plants never look as good and strong as any of the ones I got from any other reputable vendor. I know that Hortico carries a lot of Kordes roses which you like so much, but it may be a good idea to look for better vendors. Pickering is usually, but not always, good. Check out Palatine roses - I've heard only good things about them, and I think they carry a lot Kordes roses. DA has a decent selection of OGRs and classics, and the plant quality and service is usually top notch (although I've received some plants with RMV from them a few years ago, but they will reimburse you if this happens). In my experience, even under excellent growing conditions, the quality of the plant really really matters a lot.

Andrea

Here is a link that might be useful: Palatine Roses

Jim, what does high in P&K mean to you? To me, it means toxic level, but then you might be using it to mean adequate. I am just not sure here, but could it be you need more N? I accidentally spilled about a handful of potash on a rose unintentionally when I fell (wheelbarrow and all) in the garden and there was about a cup of potash in the wheelbarrow as I dumped it. Within a short while, the rose was no more. It was a HT that might have gotten S/P'd anyway due to its ugly color, but I did not mean to kill it but that potash saved me the chore. So, I guess what I am asking is whether or not you have too much of K and P?

If I can grow roses, anyone can.

Whether anybody considers himself/herself as a success or failure in rose growing depends so much on expectations. I set my expectations about half to three quarters of the way up in the range from horrible looking roses to perfect looking roses. And that works perfectly for me. The criteria for success allows for some yellow leaves, aphids, galloping black spot. I know I don't grow roses to the point of perfection that Pappu does, but I am a happy gardener just to be able to grow them to my own level of expectations.

Which is why people are more likely to feel failure and dejection when growing the fancy new introductions. Very few gardeners can expect to grow them to the perfect specimens illustrated on the sales pitch pictures that promote them. And, which is why old garden rose are more likely to be tolerated by gardeners - there isn't an artificial expectation of perfection associated with them.

Joe, I wish I could have stated my thoughts as perfectly as you did. Very well spoken.

Randy

I am new to the forum but this thread caught my eye. I have found with roses the best thing is to stick with the shrub or garden roses. I also do not pick roses all by myself but instead work closely with one rose nursury (Ashdown Roses) and if I order one that will not work in my area, they will let me know and change it to something that will. This year I am starting all my Roses on the Peter Beales Natural Rose Care system and so far they all love it.

Jim, good luck with the roses you do have that are working.

I have been disappointed in HT's myself. Which is why I don't grow many anymore.

Carla

I've looked repeatedly for a pattern in my success or failure with a rose from different angles, like vendor, breeder, class and then at my soil,climate and care.

Now soil is something that has been repeatedly stressed here as being something that you can change, at least improve. But I haven't done that other than build a couple of raised beds using outside top soil but from this area so probably it is much the same as my own.

The only pattern I see is what is often commented on in rose books "grows well in poor soil". That is the only pattern I see. Poor soil never defined but I assume that is what I have and not knowing quite what is bad about it.

Older rugosas fit that group. OGR's mostly do also. Grafted on multiflora also seems to fit but to be perverse I've had own roots that also have done well. I've had Hortico roses same as well as failures. Same with Pickering. Vintage not so good but exceptions there also.

Since the care has been the same for all roses that I planted that proves something but not sure what other than improving my care might change the outcome. Will try to do that.

But I'm also going to begin interplanting which will reduce the stess on selecting roses based on their ability to repeat bloom. Won't that be a relief and return choosing a rose based only on the beauty and fragrance of the flower!

Watering is normally by rainfall which we get enough of. Fertilizing I have been negligent and will increase it this year.
Jim, maybe patricia43 is on to something with the high P&K. I'll have to find my Compendium of Rose Diseases when I get home and consult. The other observation is on the watering. Rain may not be enough. Especially for roses in the first 3 - 5 years. Most of them want water, and lots of it. Even if it rains during the week in growing season, I still water once or twice more that week. After 5 years, then mine can go without as much water, I water less often but deeply.

Jim, I agree with diane_nj. It doesn't sound like you are watering them often enough. The first roses that I planted were knockouts and I didn't understand why they were looking so pitiful - bare limbs, no blooms - when I'd heard that they were so low maintenance. I helpful neighbor of mine walked over one day and asked me about my watering schedule for my knockouts and like you, I was pretty much leaving it up to rainfall. This was 4 years ago before our drought. She told me that I wasn't watering nearly enough and that I should water them every over day - even if it rains - while they were still young. I followed her advice and WHAM, they came back beautfully.
If I were you, I'd water more often and see if that makes a difference. It's time consuming if you water by hand like I do, but well worth it.

Good luck and don't give up.
Hope

We tend the garden. What we need to remember is the garden is the boss. It determines what will grow and how well it will grow. The secret is to listen to the garden. If you have roses that are doing well, buy more of those and sprinkle them around. Let the garden tell you what it wants to be. Don't try to force it to be something that it can not attain.

Plant 10 roses. If two survive to the next year then you are two ahead of the year before... It's a long process, but eventually you will have a garden that thrives and that is happy with itself.

Rule of thumb: 1" of water penetrates about 3" of clay. If your roots are 12" down, you need 4" of water at least once a week, twice a week when they are young/new.

Pay attention to recommended zones. Many hybrid teas and most teas, chinas, noisettes all like it warmer.

Good suggestions.

I've been using in recent years Rosetone. I need to check their label. But I've often wondered why a soil analyses cames back with those high results for P&K then follows up with recommendations to add more.

Some time ago I bought some urea thinking it was a high source of N and no other stuff. I used to work for a company that made urea so I thought like them. Used it and don't notice any difference.

I'm watchful about water but maybe for new roses I need to use my moisture meter more often. Of just plain stick a finger in the ground.

And as to following success with more of the same I really have done that. Which is why I've ended up being such a booster of Kordes roses. All 9 of my Austins died. But stil I could try some in containers and overwinter in my greenhouse. Maybe I'll do that.

So after all of this soul searching I'm not going to worry about repeat bloom but go for a once bloomer regardless. Fill in the spaces with other plants and get some variety instead of all that bark filler.

So you see I've not totally given up!

What kind of winter protection did you give them?

Jim, I've felt badly about your being discouraged with roses - you really do work so hard at it. I'm wondering about the watering issue, like some of the other folks are. I checked on the average rainfall a month in your area, and it doesn't even come to quite 1" a week. Unless you have a fair amount of clay in your soil, your roses may be thirsty. I have sandy loam and during the hotter weeks of summer I have to make sure my roses get at least 3" a week. I didn't realize how thirsty they were until we put in irrigation which is on a timer. I was hand watering quite a bit, but not as consistently as the irrigation system is now, and the difference is amazing! Try more water and see what happens. You could even do a test - extra water for some and not others, to see if that is the case. I also use an all-organic rose mix similar to Mills Magic (bonemeal, cottonseed meal, bloodmeal, alfalfa meal, fish meal an azamite). Our rose society mixes and sells it and it really helps improve the soil as well as the roses. Just a few thoughts. You work too hard and love roses too much not to get lots of much-deserved blooms.

I dont know what your set up is but Lowes and HD have these battery operated timers that attach to your spigot. Then you can attach a soaker hose or sprinkler. It will automatically turn the water on and off. Great for those who cannot afford an irrigation system or for folks like me who have a house built on rock and no way to trench deep enough to pipe in a system.

I am not sure at all that the roses coming from Hortico are grafted on multiflora. Some are, some do not look like multiflora rootstock at all. I am not suggesting that the other root stocks they use won't work in your area, I just want you to be aware that some roses maybe grafted on other rootstock - canina or even Dr. Huey.

Jim if you are in western ny, i can't hardly believe it would be lack of water. With all that lake effect snow and such.

We get a ton of lake effect snow her on Lake Michigan too, but I still need to provide extra irrigation in the summer.

Maybe you rely too much in your selections on a book that is written for English climate not northern NY.

Yes, I think other than when we experience a bona fide drought in the summer, which isn't that often, we in the northeast receive enough rainfall to easily sustain roses. I went one summer without supplementally-watering any of my roses. They did fine, although they probably would have bloomed better if I'd watered.

Yep England and northern NY are worlds apart climate-wise.

I think it really depends on your soil. If Jim's soil is more sandy than clay or loam, it takes more water. At least that has been the case for me. I've been building the soil in my beds for about 15 years now with compost and organic mulches, and although I don't have to supplement watering nearly as much as I originally did, I still have to during long periods of no rain (two summers ago we went 6 weeks without rain - last summer 4 weeks).

Thanks so much for every one's concern. But all of this has helped me figure out what to do next. And that should have been obvious long ago.

Go with what works. Stop trying to figure out why an Austins flunks my garden and something else doesn't. Plant those instead! And stop seeking the "perfect" rose. Continuous bloom, no disease, big flowers, great fragrance and vigor to spare. Like buying a car reading every word in in the annual issue on cars by CU.

Still I will be forever pondering the whys. For example why does Rugosa Alba colonize a 10x10' area and would keep going unless butchered and another rose won't even grow? I guess it has to do with the predatory ability of Alba to seek needed nurtrients and keep them for itself fighting off other roots (let go or I'll eat you!) Some such thing.

So instead of planting an exhibit of roses without regard to how they look together I've decided to concentrate on what looks good and what does well. And forget about that other stuff. Fritz Nobis is beautiful and likes it here so plant more than one even if it blooms only once. And others as well. Plant those less hardy in containers, in the greenhouse for winter and out in the spring. With those the soil can be to suit no freetting with my natural soil.

And last of all intermix with other plants. What a dummy I've been planting all those boring areas with only roses!

Jim! You've had an epiphany! And your insights benefit all of us. Thanks for being a sharing member of the forum.

Jim,
Although I consider myself somewhat of a failure of a rose grower, I do have great success growing powerful roses as foliage plants. No matter where I buy them, grafted or own root, which rootstock, or type of rose. They all grow big. I don't fertilize or water much. Knowledge very limited. Erratic spray program. No winter protection. Its pure luck here.

So, don't be too hard on yourself.

If you decide to go with hardy once bloomers, consider adding some clematis vines for summer interest. I think they are hardy in your area. The Viticellas are pretty easy to grow.

Harry

My wife is the perennial gardener. I mentioned the C's to her one day only to learn she tried several times and couldn't grow them. I've read a bit and see they need an alkaline soil. Will try that in pots.

Yeah, an epiphany!

Come to think of it I may have let those 6 new ones do dry or at least didn't water enough. That was one of the main reasons I lost it!

My soil isn't alkaline but 6.5 pH in most areas in the garden. I have no problem to grow clematis if they get enough water and nutrients.

My soil runs from about 7.5 to (yikes) 4.5 in one area. I have clematis growing throughout my garden. My only wish is that we got more chill in the winter to make them more prolific and floriferous.

Jim, I could have written your message. ha! that's why i'm sticking to Species zone 3, water, and horse compost. they seem to do the best.

foo-foo roses and fancy tea and fertilizers don't work for me. i'm near the mississippi and hit hard clay a foot under the topsoil.

Jim, I think you are on the right track. Grow what likes your climate and soil and forget the rest. All my roses are in mixed beds with lots of perennials and annuals and I'm a pretty casual gardener. If it doesn't grow well, or I don't like it, I try something else. When I think of all the other "once bloomers" in my garden (like Iris, lillies, phlox, etc) it seems silly to plant only HT's. Once blooming roses are glorious and there are lots of other flowers to fill in the time and space when they aren't blooming. Good luck this year.
Kathy

Maybe you could grow one or 2 fussy roses in pots, watering often by hand and bring them in in winter. I am doing this with some Austins that needed constant spraying and it helped. Then you could have a few that go year round while the once bloomers have the main spots in the garden. I have the best luck with a 15 gallon size or larger because more roots seems to equal more flowers. Anyway, you could then see if it is soil or watering that is causing the problems. The same rose in the ground grew slower for me and had fewer repeats than its twin in a big pot on premium planting soil with regular watering.