Jon, I have seen American Beauty and it is indeed really fragrant. I want it too but can't fit any more big roses:-(. I think ARE carries it.

Masha

Well, one way of making the garden "new" is to do what we're doing, and start ripping things out!

Jeri

This is going on my second year with roses, and so there's lots still to learn and it's necessary to spend lots of time looking up rose varieities and thinking about the roses I've ordered and then to do the landscape planning for them. And lingering over information and pictures in the zillion rose books that are absolutely essential...

But I'm not addicted to roses and likely never will be addicted to a single type of plant. I'm crazy about camellias, rhododendrons, and azaleas too! Oh, and bulbs! They are looking fantastic in our yard right now...

Mary

Oh, and bulbs! They are looking fantastic in our yard right now...

carolinamary, pictures or it didn't happen! :^)

Ingrid, isn't it funny how 80 or 90 roses ago it was so easy to get excited about new roses on a nursery website?? Now I can quickly pan the list and find nothing I want - except for my favorite nearby nursery. They have several more I could get excited about if I had room which I don't. Perhaps it's only a fleeting stage, but right now there is a settledness in my gardening perspective that arrived after the completion of the spring prep of the front garden. When it was done (quicker than I thought it would be), it seemed that a great weight lifted off me. I was pleased with the result and hopeful for the coming season which will be the 3rd for much of the garden but only the 2nd for much of it, too. Anyway, I seem to have more equilibrium now. I know there's always going to be a huge amount of work involved, but the work is doable and may not be as horrible as I thought, hopefully. With pretty much all the roses that I'm going to own in the ground there is a feeling of relief. I have one large bed for 3 major roses to finish (and a smaller area for 2 roses), the back garden spring prep to finish and virtually no pot ghetto. To a certain degree I am feeling freer to stop and smell the roses, content to give them time to reach maturity. Right now I'm flush with mellowness, and Mme Shovel couldn't be farther from my mind.

Sherry

Ingrid, thanks so much for the nice words. You put a smile on my face. I'm really enjoying the process. I have little bird couples hopping around checking all the potted plants, and just a chirping away. I'm so delighted! They do seem to enjoy the roses and camellias as much as the natives. Then they went down to the pond to play in the water, now that the brush is cleared away and they can actually get to it. I'm sure they were extremely distraught for a while while the heavy equipment was in there. I'm so glad there are many different types of holly trees to chose from, as they will provide berries for them this next winter.

I think it will look so much nicer to have roses mixed in the whole scheme of things. That's not to say there won't be areas that are strictly roses, but I'm hoping to have more of a garden with roses, rather than just a rose garden. I think that is one of Mike Shoupe's quotes.

Still, I've ordered quite a few roses this year, almost all teas. I lost all my potted ones due to the harsh winter. Just when I thought I was finished ordering for this year, Vintage sent me e-mails that several rare teas were now available, that were on my wish list.

I'm very weak.

Sandy

Sandy, you're welcome. I'm so sorry you lost your potted roses; that had to be depressing. I'm delighted though that you're ordering from Vintage, which is my main rose source. They have such a great collection of teas, don't they?

I'm also of the opinion that roses look best with companion plants. I do think that's best for the wildlife too, which has increased tremendously since we got rid of the grass and put garden areas in its place. If everyone got rid of their lawn and planted creature-friendly plants I think that would do a lot to help this planet.

Ingrid

Hi Hoovb,

I was thinking today that I ought to take some pictures of the daffodils scattered around, and then I started noticing the yard stairsteps thrown where a car driving off the road last October threw them to when the car ruined a significant portion of our yard next to the road. (The yard is still not repaired, though we're expecting a repair soon.) But I might be able to find a way for the camera to miss those thrown steps junking up the yard right now. Still, there's the problem of all the plants the car ran over that my husband put into little pots to give them a chance to renew themselves; they're sort of scattered all around where the bulbs are planted too. But I might manage. We'll see.

In the meantime, you can see the rhododendron that the car ran over and totally destroyed here last October; it was decapitated at its base. This picture was taken in 2005; it had actually grown a good bit since then. Unlike our other rhododendrons, this "Mother of Pearl" variety had a good bit of drought tolerance, and it was a great loss when that rhododendron plant (actually a tree) was destroyed. The handrail for the top of the former stairs is just visible on the left.

Best wishes,
Mary

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:224308}}

I'm another one of those who want a garden full of roses rather than a rose garden. Aside from that I have an apparently infinite ability to fall in love with plants. And I want a full garden, clothed top to toe with trees, shrubs, subshrubs, climbers, herbaceous perennials, annuals, bulbs. For me one of the things that makes a garden beautiful is complexity; always something new to look at and lots of little surprises. Architecture counts, but plants matter a lot. And I too want plenty of wildlife.
One of the biggest compliments anybody ever paid to my garden in Washington was when I took two people around it at two different times. They were both interested in plants and gardening. I asked them how many roses they thought I had, and they both said about thirty-five. In fact there were nearly a hundred, and they weren't small varieties, either. I took their answers to mean that I had successfully "camouflaged" my large rose population with other plants, and was pleased that the roses didn't overwhelm the garden.
Mary, I hope you get your garden in order without overmuch difficulty. It sounds like that was quite a crash!
Melissa

quick reply for Jon - Peter Beales has Conditorum and Mme Legras de St Germain.

Melissa, you must be channeling my twin or something like that! I've looked at enough landscape books now to know that complexity is a strong element of what I'm after. Your gardens sound wonderful!

Best wishes,
Mary

Now in my 5th year of growing roses, I am now able to see what the mature rose is all about. It is hard to judge when you have a small band, or a struggling bush. What I have learned....
1. I still love HT's for the flower and vase. Not so much for the bush and overall shape.
2. Teas are hands down the happiest specimens in the garden. It is as if they are on rose steriods. This year they have really spread and are HUGE!
3. Climbers come in different shapes and sizes depending on the class, that said I really do not like my HT climbers. They are just 10' tall twigs.
4. If I had to do it all over again. I would really spend time searching out mature, full size plants that I would consider planting - The size on the label in my growing zone9 = 3 to 5 times larger than what the tag said.
5. I would plant only Teas, Chinas, Noisettes and HT's that I am love with.

6. What I could live without - Climbing HT's - Some floribundas that have ugly flowers - Red ground cover that has converted to climbing slasher vines, ankle height.

As much as I didn't want to leave my teas and chinas in my southern garden, I realize that I've been given a chance to learn first hand the other kinds of roses that I most likely would not have tried growing.

So yes, it is a different stage, but three steps forward, two steps back. I know a lot more about designing a rose garden now, as this is #3, but totally different climate and opportunity. I always wanted to love albas first hand.

So I am grateful and slowly letting loose of my soon-to-be mature teas in a goneaway garden. On to different things.

Gean

I can relate to the idea of different stages but I find mine are less to do with specific plants and more concerned with the overall idea of gardening. I have only been gardening for around 10 years and have never been a tentative type. A frenzy of knowledge aquisition followed as I knew nothing. After 3 years or so, I started feeling quite confident and enrolled on a college course. Naturally, the more you learn, the more you realise how little you actually know. So, another few years of anxiety but now, a decade later, I feel qualified to call myself a gardener - indeed I am one, making a living from it. I can now accept the dearth of knowledge and realise that there are far too many plants I will never experience while feeling quietly competent about my limited abilities. Gardening is a wonderful interest - there will always be something new to learn and try forever.

Last year I put in a couple large perennial beds, for the most part deer resistant. The deer kept eating my roses. At the end of summer, however, the only flowers still going was the roses. I wanted more. Bought six Austins. I was planning on sitting back and watching how all my work from last year comes together. Mother Nature had a different idea. Thanks to a very unusual 7 degree temps, I have lost a lot of plants. I am not sure yet what all is not coming back. So far; 2 Lithodora gone, 2 barberries gone, the escallonia died to the ground last winter, bounced back, but this winter dropped all leaves and so far no sign of life, several mums gone. I walk around daily looking for signs of life. I should stop looking, I just heard it is going to get down in the 20's this week. The killing weather is not done. There has also been additional dieback on the roses from the occassional night freezes. Their poor little leaves get frozen.

This is an interesting post Ingrid. I too am in a different stage now than I used to be. I've been growing roses for about 14 years. I've been through a divorce and other changes. So for the past few years I've been scaling back the roses and flower beds to make my garden a little easier to maintain on my own. It's a balancing act for me to maintain the beauty and fullness of my established garden without feeling overwhelmed by the work to keep it up. I usually place an order for a few roses each year to try new varieties, but that order this year will be 5-6 new roses and not the large orders of past years. These aren't for new areas but replacements for roses that died or have failed to perform in a no-spray situation. I also love all kinds of plants and have increased the variety of stuff that I grow without increasing the space.

Gosh, I'm just getting started! I can't believe I've lived in this house for almost 40 years and did not have more roses. I guess raising kids, having grandkids living here for 5 years, as well as working full time has gotten in the way! However, not knowing any better, I bought an Abraham Darby years ago at our local nursery and the scent alone made me a believer in old roses. The history of these roses is in itself so fascinating. Actually, this has worked out well - I now have a new hobby, and am loving it! When I get my bands from last year planted as well as the 4 new roses from ARE, I will have about 25 roses, can hardly wait!

Retiring doesn't sound too bad, a new journey...

It's slow going at my age to get the new beds in, but when I retire will have something to work on :)

Gardens and plants pull you forward into the future.

Every year that I garden I seem to change my mind or methods. It is a constant ebb and flow of ideas and plants. Keeps this hobby interesting and exciting, full of expectations of what will work and not work.

I moved from a 3 plus acre garden to a town lot 100 x 100 three years ago. That caused me to rethink how I garden. It has been a challenge trying to fit plants in properly, in scale with the house. As long as there is grass there is a place to grow something new.

last year I had the side yard all dug up because I had to have a new well drilled. that nightmare mess will now become a vegetable garden. As soon as I see a new space I get ideas to fill it with plants of one type or another. I would much rather spend my time weeding than mowing. :)

Valerie

Ingrid I envy you. I'm so fickle. I think I'm content but it never lasts. I want more, different. My biggest problem (or my saving grace depending on how you look at it) is my tiny lot. It is 1/8th of an acre with house, patio, pool, garage and double wide driveway which leaves me not much to garden.
I love Sandy's thought 'I'm hoping to have more of a garden with roses, rather than just a rose garden.' That is my dream and I read landscape books that show roses interplanted with many other plants and sigh. But with so little room it is hard to give up space for anything less than the queen of flowers plus I have concerns about crowding in my hot and humid environment.
My current quest is to make it more organic and with 1/2 of my roses modern that is kind of tough in this environment.
I think it's the challenge that the changes bring that keeps me excited. I'm not the type to sit back and admire my garden but more of 'how can I make that area more interesting, colorful, blended, etc.?' kind of gardener.
Nancy

Nancy, fortunately there is no such thing as a static garden, so there is always something interesting going on, but I do have a feeling of tranquility in knowing that for the moment I'm done with purchasing more and more roses. There are still the companion plants to play with and roses to move to new, hopefully better, locations, and the constant assessment of whether the general landscaping plan is as good as it could be. This morning I spent some time in cutting back one part of Mutabilis which was threatening to crowd out Our Lady of Guadalupe. It was so satisfying to make more space for the smaller rose to grow and flourish. There is something new to look at virtually every day and that's what makes gardening such an addiction for me, and I suspect for many of us.

Ingrid

"Gardens and plants pull you forward into the future."

Melissa, this is so true, you can see it in the posts!

I'm one of those plop it here and plant it kind of people. It's not that it isn't well thought out, it just isn't planned on paper with a theme. I was never good at that. Wish I was. I guess I was destined to be an informal sort.

What I have been doing is studying the differing soils and drainage that exist on my property. Have an area with clay? O.K. Let's put a clay lover there (a Florida native tolerant of that). Areas that stay wet after a rain? No problem . Eight Bald Cypress have gone in. Sunny loam? All right! Roses! Shady loam gets the camellias, and natives that need that. A little boggy? Florida Red Maples and Fringe trees thrive in it. Ditto with the Bald Cypress. I'm done with extreme efforts to change what exists into something that wasn't meant to be. I do use compost as topdressing, because we should always give something back to the soil and make it better than how we found it. I just don't fight nature any more.

I'm letting the land speak to me, and sometimes I will get an inexplicable feeling that so and so should go here....or there. It's nothing rational at all, but the plants seem happy. For two weeks there has been a spot, very near the pond, which could conceivably flood now and then. One of my camellias kept saying it wanted to go there. I'm thinking, well, it's under a big oak and has beautiful, rich, well drained soil. So far so good, but....it MIGHT flood once in a while, and camellias don't like that. You know, the feeling was so strong that the camellia went in there. It looks nice. Twenty-five feet away is a spot on the pond edge that is mostly sticky clay. A Bald Cypress is there now. It's really cool having such diversity.

I was tickled pink last Thursday when the architects that are helping us design our house came to see our land and the site where we want to build our log home. They loved how I was incorporating the native plantings with my camellias and roses, and asked if they could take pictures.

I guess our instincts work if we listen to them. It's going to take some time to "get there" though. It's a large space.

My back and left shoulder have been screaming at me, and I slid in the mud several times (yes, I was crazy and was planting in the rain Sunday). I even slid into the pond once, and my sneakers are ruined...... but what fun!!!! I was 7 years old again. Just wish my shoulder knew that instead of thinking it's 56.
Sandy

Sandy, the way you're gardening is THE way to garden: nature as collaborator not as enemy. Great description of how you work. I bet you're going to have very happy plants.

Thanks Melissa. I think a lot of us finally reach a point where we quit trying to work against nature, and instead try to work with it. I did learn a great deal with my experimentation though, which has been valuable eduction.

Part of my changes in attitude have stemmed from finally biting the bullet and doing what my husband and I truly wanted in a lifestyle, which was to move back out in the country and own some land again. It took a lot of guts to make the change into the unknown, but we are so at peace now. I can relax and grow things I like because I actually have the space to do so. This means I can grow what roses I want because I don't have to try to force them all to grow in a small subdivision lot, where the conditions were not always suited to them.

I also have a passion for many of the Florida native plants, and was frustrated because I didn't have much room to grow them. Many of them attract pollinators, which we desperately need.

I love the quiet evenings when the birds start coming out. This is what gardening is all about, and which you've tried to drum into some of our heads. You always have great ideas, and I love hearing about your gardens. Actually, I love hearing about everyone's ideas here. What a lovely group of people.

Sandy

Ingrid, you always come up with the best topics. I had to think about my answer for a while. I am still in the frenzy period and have been stuck there for over 10 years. I hope within the next two years I can get everything settled in and then I can spend more time enjoying my garden and not agonizing over it.

I have a strange yard and have had trouble with the "bones" of my garden. I really need to work on the shapes of my beds and borders. I just posted my problem on the Landscape Design Forum. Maybe I should have posted on this forum instead.

I should have taken a break from ordering any new roses until I get everything in order. Instead, I have 16 new roses from Pickering arriving soon.

Maureen
(trying not to get discouraged)

Sandy, I just wanted to say how impressed I am with your desire to let the land speak to you, and your plans for a wildlife habitat. I know you have always been a 'green' gardener so to speak, and I think that your plans will bring you much joy. Thank you for posting,

Elaine

Since I'm in the process of replacing my 86 modern roses with OGR's (which I had totally ignored in the catalogues before), it seems like I'm starting from scratch :( And since I do love the HTs for the flower shapes and colours, I am planning to put them in pots, which means my garden is going to look like a rose nursery!! I have no clear idea as to what I'm doing, just on a spending spree. I do know that I dont like the upright, look of HT's in the garden, I want more graceful shrubs, so I am planning to slowly replace them with Teas, Chinas and Austins. Have vague ideas of putting some of the pots at the side yard (they can't be seen there) and making a cutting garden (bring roses in for the vase. Yeah, definitely I am on the honeymoon stage, my garden is definitely not what I want it to look like at the moment :(
Sanju

I will also (hopefully) be soon in a different place, figuratively and in reality. I went from living with more than 200 rosebushes to bidding on a house with a much smaller yard and my bid was accepted this weekend, now there is paperwork and planning to do.

I measured the front and back garden spaces today at " Rose Cottage" and plan to make the best use of a small space by going upwards, and put in an espaliered row of Tea roses, (I've helped espalier dozens of Tea rose cultivars) along the sidewalk that borders the street so I'll have more privacy and zillions of Tea roses in bloom.
A red climbing China on the west side of the house, will contrast well with the white wall. There are some spaces where I knew at first sight what rose I wanted to put where and that is one.
I intend to plant O.G.R.s with antique garden plants, I found some antique candlestick primroses today at Annies' Annuals that are very lovely and some antique carnations as well that will go well with 6 antique violet cultivars from the 1800's that I've collected.
After dozens of trials and errors I am hoping to grow only those roses that I most greatly love, the loveliest Tea roses and a red China or two.

wish me luck
lux.

I've really enjoyed reading everyone's comments here. I'll say it again...... this is a great group of people. I've gotten some wonderful and creative ideas from this forum. I won't always have time to chime in because we'll be starting house construction soon, but I'll be popping in now and again.

Sandy

I'm so happy to see that this thread is still continuing with wonderful contributions. Luxrosa, I'm enchanted by the idea of your small garden filled with only the most beautiful and best roses.

Sanju, I admit to a feeling of some pride that I was in some way instrumental in steering you toward the old roses. I know you're going to love them and your garden will embark on a renaissance of beauty and charm.

Maureen, I'm sorry that you're a little at a loose end right now. I looked at your post on the landscape thread and felt that the answer you received from the poster who had a picture of his back yard was rather inspirational. I also think that once your plantings achieve some maturity it will make a big difference. If I may say so, the proportion of grass to beds still seems a bit high, and if you enlarged your beds and perhaps made them all a more uniform shape, you might be surprised at the result. I think having ordered another 35 roses was a great idea, and if you make larger beds you'll have room for them!

Ingrid

I don't spray, and after a couple failed attempts never grew roses in Florida--they only offered high-maintenance HTs at the local nursery, and I hadn't discovered OGRs. When I moved to Washington and saw roses thriving in neglected backyards, I thought I'd give them a try. Some study indicated that Rugosas were ironclad--so we started with those. Then a Golden Showers bodybag--at $4, it was worth a try to see how "other" roses would do--it's now a gorgeous monster. More digging online, and I found OGRs--I think finding a picture of Basye's Purple when looking at Rugosas started me down the slippery slope, and I ended up placing an order online. Thought I'd try one each of several classes, planning to only keep ones that did well...and of course, they all did great! That was about 200 roses ago.

Now I'm entering a new phase. If they don't make pretty, healthy plants, they're going to meet Mr. Shovel. I've ordered a few too many that are gushed about as disease-proof only to have them get completely cruddy in my yard. So I'm growing my own. Last year was my first attempt at starting seedlings, and I have a few little plants to show for it. Still waiting for them to bloom, but so far the bushes are good. I have high hopes for this year's batch of seedlings. About 100 little plants so far, open pollinated seedlings from gallicas, mosses, hybrid musks, and ramblers, and more on the way. If they have halfway-decent flowers and a nice bush, they'll be replacing some of their not-so-healthy kin. Since they're yard shrubs, a healthy, attractive plant is more important than a perfectly formed blossom. And besides, it's a lot of fun to grow your own. This year I might even try some crosses.

Sherry, I do miss my Florida natives. We had a lot of wild coffee (such a gorgeous bush!) and firebushes, and they were always visited by Zebra Longwings and Eastern Swallowtails. When we found a dwarf Bald Cypress at the local nursery here, we had to get it for our yard. But plenty of Washington natives for the critters, too.

Melissa, I love your description of your garden with a lot of roses. That's what we're trying to accomplish here--maybe someday we'll get there!

Sanju, just a thought about your HTs. You could interplant among the OGRs. I only have one HT (Tiffany) in my garden and for some reason she has stayed tiny - maybe this year she'll get tall. Here HT's on fortuniana rootstock get to be 8' tall, so I'm envisioning these "bloom towers" rising above your OGR shrubs with their naked legs beautifully hidden. I could be all wrong, but it's a lovely sight in my mind.

Lux, your Rose Cottage sounds lovely with your antique plantings. I definitely want to see those espaliered teas!! How many roses do you think you have room for? And what will happen to the 200 you're leaving behind? You do have a camera, don't you?

Sherry

Sherry, I've thought of that, but considering that I'm planting mostly tea roses, I wonder if the HT's will even bother to grow with something that vigorous next to them. I will perhaps keep the ones that I love (like you suggested), and just move the others. I am a bit frustrated that the autumn spectacular flush that I was expecting doesn't look that great to me anymore since we've had a fair bit of rain, the leaves have all defoliated and the plants look like sticks with flowers on top. Earlier I was happy with that, but now that I know there is a better way, or rather different kinds of roses, I feel frustrated with my HT's. On the other hand, my floribundas seem mostly alright and seem to have much smaller and fuller bushes, so I will mix them in with the others.

Ingrid, you are definitely the one responsible for steering me towards old garden roses, and I feel very hopeful to think that my garden might one day look as beautiful as some of yours I've seen on gardenweb. I suppose I am not that creative and full of ideas, but am learning a lot from seeing all of your gardens, and reading all that I can on gardenweb. Thanks to all of you, I am avidly reading every single thing I can and am brimming with ideas for next year (poor DH, he is quite unsuspecting about the bill!).
Sanju

I'm definitely entering a new stage, since I'm downsizing my garden. Unfortunately, that meant giving away all of my once-bloomers (except for Edna's Rose - just couldn't part with her), and some of my more finicky teas.

I'm revisiting this thread. :)

I probably won't order any more roses for a good long time (I'm hoping at least a year) because I think I've run out of space in my craziness.... and my husband is very much like "ACK! Stop buying roses!" haha... so, it was fun to read this thread again.

I'm sure some of the roses I've bought over this past year will disappoint me or just not do well... so I'm sure I'll end up buying some more at some point, but I'm going to try to hunker down now and take care of and evaluate the ones I have for the next year or three. I can't buy the big number of roses I've been doing this year.

I have at least one rose from each class of rose I was interested in and I'm looking forward to seeing how they grow, how they like it here and how they differ from each other. It was really fun to study all these different types of roses and choose my favorites.

I'm so ignorant, I really have no idea what the garden will look like in 5 years. I can only hope that I've researched enough to make it generally successful without too much heartache. (ie the placement of larger plants like roses and trees...) I'm sure I'll have to move stuff, but some things can't be moved without a lot of work and potential loss of a plant.

I'll still have a lot of learning to do in particular with companion planting as I feel like in that, I'm at the "throw spagetti to the wall and see what sticks" stage. Even though I try and pick companion plants based on study, some still don't do well. So I think it will take some time to learn how to care for them better, and also, to choose ones better.
I'm still having a pretty bad time with bulbs, even though I followed the instructions carefully a lot of them have already rotted. But my irises seem to be doing fine... so... hopefully I'll get the hang of it. :)

Aimee, I was surprised to see my old thread come up and had to smile when I read what I had written because I was so wrong. I've just recently ordered another 12 roses which means 14 with bonus bands. I discovered that it's never over because roses don't reveal how well they'll do for several seasons, and then also my tastes have changed somewhat. The modern roses don't interest me as much or didn't work out well. Fortunately I've now found someone at work who is happy to have all the roses I don't want. I wonder if you'll also find after some time that not everything is working to your satisfaction or that you've simply learned more about what works and what you like or don't like. Fortunately my husband never tries to stop me from buying new roses and in fact encourages me even though he's the one who digs all the holes. Maybe you can let your husband know how lucky he is that you're not spending your money on bar hopping and wild parties! You're just making a wondrous garden for both of you. I hope you'll continue to share your gardening thoughts and experiences with us here. It's really a never-ending process for those of us who are hooked, and I'm glad that at least for me there's no end in sight.

Ingrid

Aimeekitty----I'm so happy you brought this post up again---
I missed it due to back surgery ----

Ingrid----thanks so much---It is a very interesting post

My gardening will be very limited from now on( Dr's orders)
but I can still enjoy the roses that have survived the neglect---Plus I can visit GW and get a "rose fix" when necessary.
I hope more folks will chime in ---

roses will always be very important to me--

Florence

Ingrid: "I wonder if you'll also find after some time that not everything is working to your satisfaction or that you've simply learned more about what works and what you like or don't like. "

I'm sure that will be the case. :) I'm sure that it will take a year or so for them to show me what they're like at all. Some I could see in local gardens mature, but many of them, I'm just going off descriptions and photos online,... so I could not like it or like it... it's really hard to tell. I'm sure my taste will change once I get more educated by my garden, too.

I'm sure if I wait for a year, my husband will be ok with me buying a few replacements. :) I did overdo it a bit this year in my enthusiasm :)

Golly, I'm just getting started so am enthusiastic about new ideas and purchases. We've lived in our house for 40 years, but for about 30 years raised and trained German Shepherds and Border Collies so forget about flowers and flower beds! But as time went on, we got older, the dogs got older, and as they passed away we didn't replace with more dogs. So...now I can put in beds, plant the roses and flowers and shrubs to my heart's content. I'm thoroughly enjoying this new endeavor and can still be outside much of the time, which I love.

At this point I am so ready to retire and just putter about the house, the yard, and read good books, just enjoy. Yes, life is good!

aimee, generally bulbs and clay do not go well together, with only a few exceptions. It is a constant source of frustration for me, since my previous garden was sandy loam and I have many bulby favorites, but after 6 years of trying, clay won really and I resorted to one big sandy bed of the biggest favorites only. /0\

Some things just are as they are, it is either a lot of work to change the planting conditions, either choose what grows well in the given soil.

elemire,
That's not the case in our conditions. We have clay soil and many bulbs--narcissus, tulips, Dutch giant crocus, chionodoxas, hyacinths--love it. I think good drainage and a summer dry spell during the bulb dormancy are important, though; our steep hillside and summer drought with no watering take care of these requirements. Tall bearded iris is also very much at home here. I agree with you though that the best thing is to plant plants that like the conditions you have.
Melissa

I found 3 chinese ground orchids coming up today, so I must not have killed them all. haha. XD

The tall irises I planted from my mom's yard this Dec are doing great, I think the reblooming bearded ones will be ok, too.

But the naked ladies, I think they all rotted. :\
I've seen them growing around here... I wonder if I planted them higher up maybe in a raised mound, if they'd do better? I'm willing to try them a bit longer. My front yard gets far better drainage due to the way it was graded, so maybe I should try them there instead of the more flat backyard.

I'm planning on planting some narcissus this fall. But tulips don't do well in my area because of lack of winter.

Melissa, hillside and dry is really important, since many bulbs naturally occur in similar conditions - a lot of wild species get collected in the mountains. The problem though is that here we have fat sea clay, which is too heavy, too wet and too rich in nutrition. The later is very important with the bulbs - above all, many kinds hate fertilization, the poorer the soil, the better they do.

I do not count general tulips, narcissus and giant crocus as bulbs though - that we got in abundance here too, although some disappear without a trace at times. But I do like species crocuses, safran, colchicums, fritilarias, lilies, erythroniums and so on - and those are the trouble makers for me. Especially lilies - the blinking things like any soil, apart rich clay and many of them are so pretty.

it's not really wet here, but we do have heavy clay.

So I'd be safe with narcissus and giant crocus, iris... and what else?

you could try cammassia, dierama,ixia, many of the species lilies such as henryi, speciosum, martagons. Galtonia (summer hyacinth) might look lovely with your roses, leucojum (snowflakes) Crown Imperials (tall frits) and there are a number of smaller wilder gladioli such as G.papillio, G.tristis, G.cardinalis which all like a richer soil. However, Aimee, bulbs are absolutely made for containers. There are so many which will grow at all times of the year and when they are done with, can be tucked away, out of sight. Smaller bulbs include cyclamen, chionodoxa (glory of the snow) ipheon, tecophilea (very beautiful blue crocus, not cheap but fabulous) iris reticulata, fritillaries such as snakeshead frits which will love it in clay as long as there is still reasonable drainage too. The nasturtium family have some very interesting members such as Tropolaeum tricolour and polyphyllum (some of my spellings may be a bit dodgy)
Taller bulbs include the many varied wild tulips (my faves are T.batalini, T.humilis, T. pulchella and T.clusiana)
Narcissi, especially any from divisions 5,6,7 and 8 - small, mostly very fragrant esp.jonquils and poet's narcissi.
Lilies, of course. many of which will live in pots for years (L.Regale, L.longiflorum) Alliums, from tiny pale pink and white A.roseum, A uniflora to the huge 'Gladiator, Globemaster and the white Everest or A.christophii (terrific with roses)
a number of south african or chilean beauties such as babiana, freesia,....oh, the lists are endless. Please do not give up on bulbs - they truly are the gardener's friends - more or less infallible, cheap, reliable and beautiful. As you casn no doubt tell, I love bulbs and spend easily £80-100 each year....and this is restrained shopping at wholesale prices!

Well aimee, it is not that you are safe with specific kinds of bulbs, but there are a few that can grow in clay quite well.

From tulips there are so many breeds that it makes no sense to go through all of them, but most top sellers usually can take clay soils reasonably well. Regarding wild tulips however, they do not like to grow in wet rich clay. Some can appear, but they never get to the real glory and some times do not appear at all. Too heavy and too rich in nutrition for them - they would rather grow in a pile of sand, than in a rose bed.

With narcissus it depends, I had a good success with the smaller varieties, big fluffy bloom ones often rot here - but they may do better for you with more dry climate.

With crocus, giant ones should do ok, but I would advice against species ones, especially not the blue ones - unless it is from the crocus specialist and is specifically clay loving breed (there are selected few, but rather rare and difficult to obtain).

You could try some fritilarias, but there are quite a few different kinds and I think only imperials were really clay tolerant (most wild species definitely are not, but they are small enough for small containers).

Chionodoxas and scylles were ok for me in clay, but be warned, once you have them, it is impossible to get rid of them, same with muscari - there always will be a bulb left. English and Spanish bells are self seeding weed here.

With iris, there again are a lot of kinds, bearded ones can be prone to rot if mulched or rhisomes covered in any other way, dutch iris can rot in clay as well, iris reticulata practically is hopeless in clay (unless you can find a spot where it gets little to no water whatsoever), siberic iris grows on anything really, there also are a few varieties that like to be submerged in water (some NA species among them, but I am not that familiar with them, too cold for them here).

With wild lilies, I did not try henryi and speciosum here in soil, but species martagons do not do well - their hybrids however can be an option, since they like heavy loam if it has a good compost added to it. You could probably get away with some most generic Asiatic lilies - they are quite hard to kill really. Orientals and longiflorums however are not a good idea, although some of their hybrids can take a bit of clay. Also some lilies, for example orientals, like soils around Ph 4,5 and generally quite a few lilies like ericaceous conditions, so often they are not good to plant with the roses, which like the opposite most of the time. But if you got a bed of azaleas, rhododendrons, heather and other acid loving plants, they might be a good addition. Ph really is very important with lilies, since even if you got perfect structure, if the Ph is wrong, it does not matter if it is clay or sand, they will hate it.

each pot can be a perfect little world though(acid, alkali, grit, peat, dry, boggy) and some of them can be tiny. Apart from hybrid tulips, my best bulb displays are always contained - some lilies have been going for 12 years with just a topdressing of fresh loam every year but you do have to use a good medium - not any multi=purpose potting compost but a good loamy topsoil. We have the John Innes recipes in the UK but there must be an equivalent in the US. They are just perfect for a temporary display or even to fill in gaps in a bed, then tucked away till next year.And also, they are often surprisingly cheap. Do experiment.

Thanks for the detailed responses you guys (even though we're totally offtopic. haha...) thanks I really appreciate it.

what about lilium cernum?
Asiatics sound nice, I'll try some of those then. I'd love to have something easy to start out with so that I don't feel like I have a black thumb.

What about gladiolus communis ssp byzantinus?
I like gladioulus and dierama. I'd like to try some of them.

the only allium that seems to be for my zone (9-10) is giganteum. Should I try it?

leucojum seem to only go up to zone 8, and I'm 9-10. I think they're adorable, though.

Aimee, Leucojum aestivum is found in many yards here in Livermore. I have both Gravetye Giant and the regular kind. I have also seen naturalized populations along local rural roads (sigh). Tiger lilies (Lilium lanceolatum) and Regal lilies (Lilium regale) also do well here. Many "outlets" seem to list zone 8 as the upward limit on most bulbs, but there are microclimates in zone 9 that can at least accommodate allegedly zone 8 plants, it seems. A useful indicator might be the number of "chill hours" your particular zone 9-10 location usually receives (URL below). If you are below 400 - 500 (can't grow apricots easily, for example), some species may be a problem, but, if not, it's worth a shot (and might still be worth a shot -- I haven't found zone estimates to be 100% reliable). Small differences in chill hours can make a big difference.

I absolutely love the gladiolus species. One of my favorites is Gladiolus tristis, which I received as a "hitchhiker" in another plant from the Berkeley Botanical Garden. Absolutely not fussy (it doesn't even need to be totally dry during its summer dormancy). Lovely pale yellow (matches Alliance Franco-Russe) and a night scent to die for. Annie's Annuals has a line of "Homoglads", an interspecific cross with G. tristis, many of which have great warm-color stippling or highlights. Not all of those are as fragrant as G. tristis, but most are.

Here is a link that might be useful: CA chill hours