Phal help - am I losing the battle?

16 years ago

I have a phal that I bought two summers ago and it bloomed it's fool head off. After the last spike finally gave up the ghost and I trimmed it back, some leaves started to grow on the "stem" where I had trimmed the brown spike. Not too long after that, it started to sprout roots up there - 8" above the soil level. Two weeks ago I noticed a had a new flower spike coming out of this seemingly bizarre arrangement. I was thrilled to say the least. Today however, I have found that the main "stem" has turned that awful brown color (overnight) that heralds it's death. Can I save the topknot?

Click on this photo to see both views...

{{gwi:146137}}2008 02 27

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Comments (21)

richardol
16 years ago
The keiki is plenty big enough to be potted. Just cut it off and treat it as a separate plant.
maryhbrock
Original Author
16 years ago
Aha - so that's a keikei? I've been reading the forum, and guessed that's what a keikei was, but wasn't sure. Cool - I'll cut it off. Now from what I have read, I need to plant this in spaghnum, right? I repotted the mama a month ago because it had no medium left, so I'll wait to repot her until she's recovered. Many thanks!
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philohela
16 years ago
Was the photo of the parent plant with keiki taken before or after repotting? To me it looks as if the older plant could use a smaller pot, only big enough to hold the living roots. Potting in too large of a pot could lead to root rot. Congratulations on the keiki, enjoy!

jeanne
bunnytheorchid
16 years ago
You can plant the keikei in sphagnum, or bark. I find it depends on how often you water your phal. Sphag will retain water longer than bark, so if you are prone to overwatering, I would recommend bark over sphagnum. In fact, I find a mix of bark, charcoal, and perilite/styrafoam works best for my phals. Congrats on the keikei, how exciting! =)
howard_a
16 years ago
What is being missed is that there is a definite inability of the location that has been chosen to grow the orchids to actually sustain their health and/or promote a re-bloom in the future. Unless a change of location or an improvement in the environment of the present location the kei-kei will eventually die regardless of what it's potted in, how big or not the pot is, etc. My guess, but it's only that, is that the light in the present location is subpar. That is where I would start in getting the ball rolling. Straight sphag is good as a kei-kei medium as straight sphag is good as an orchid medium, period. If straight sphag is chosen then it is even more important that light and temps and air exchange be in good order.

H
westoh Z6
16 years ago
Hey H,

Not trying to be an a-hole, just a differing opinion.

I'm not sure how you can make that assessment from those two pictures? The keiki has grown and is now spiking and it appears the parent plant has a new growth. We don't know the parentage of the phal, so we can't make assumptions that genrating a keiki is necessarily bad or indicative of poor conditions. I think the parent plant may have some root rot because of what appears to be desiccation in the older leaves, but that may be do to watering and/or potting habits more than a lack of light. (I also think it is potted in too large of a pot)

Mary has a spike and new growth on this plant, I think this is what all of us novices strive to attain in our collections.

From my viewpoint: Good job Mary...

Bob
pcan-z9
16 years ago
It's time to remove the keiki from mom and pot it up, as she is about to send the little dude on his way all on her own. This keiki is ready to be on it's own. I am a bit worried about mom tho. The leaves do look desiccated/dehydrated. When you repotted this phal, what condition were the roots in? The idea behind a smaller pot is to even the drying time out. With a large pot like that the center is often wet, when the top or outer edge feel dry. If you water based on this, the result is many times root rot.

I disagree with Howard that "Straight sphag is good as a kei-kei medium as straight sphag is good as an orchid medium, period." ......It is good in some situations and climates and a death sentence in others. Your own personal habits in the way you care for your orchids, plus environmental factors will dictate which is the best medium to use - for you. The only way to figure that out is to just try different things until you find what works. It's just part of the learning, part of the journey to success!!

Good Luck!!
Pat....
sweetcicely
16 years ago
Hi Mary!

Everybody's right, here; and if that sounds confusing, just take it step by step.

As Richardol says, the keiki is way ready to be potted. Get your pot and medium ready, first. Cut the brown spike just barely below the keiki and put it in a small pot, just big enough to contain the roots. As Philohela says, Phals like to be snug in their pots.

As Bunny says, the medium you use depends on how you care for the plants. Sphagnum moss is great (especially for baby plants) so long as it is neither compacted nor kept constantly damp. Sphag can be mixed lightly with fir bark or you can use another light mixture--just don't use "dirt" or bagged potting soil, as they smother the roots. Roots need air. Slotted plastic pots and unglazed terracotta are good choices that promote air exchange and even drying for your Phals.

Howard_a is right about sphagnum moss being a good general medium and his advice on environment is right on. Your Phals need a reasonably warm, sunny location with good air movement. They need good light to bloom. Since you are in southern California, that should not be too hard to accomplish if you have a sun exposure in the ESE, South, or SSE range. If introduced to it *gradually* Phals can take a couple of hours of direct sun, but not during its most intense part of the day. If an exposed leaf feels more than middling warm to the touch, it is subject to sun damage and needs shielding (semi-sheer curtain?) during that part of the day.

As Westoh says, the parent plant appears to be "overpotted" (i.e. in too large a pot). Though I could be mistaken (picture is a little dark) there seems to be potting soil in its medium. For reasons already stated, this will not be good for the plant in the long run. It will do better in a smaller, snug fit pot in one of the loose mediums suggested.

One last suggestion: Check out the repotting information in this forum's FAQ and the URL, below, for a good review of Phalaenopis culture. Click "Orchid Culture" in the lefthand sidebar and scroll down and click "Phalaenopsis."

Let me add my congratulations to Westoh's ~ you have two nice little plants there, about which you obviously care.

Sweetcicely

Here is a link that might be useful: Orchid Culture
maryhbrock
Original Author
16 years ago
okay - deep breath -

The current pot IS too big, but when the previous pot broke it was all I had at hand.

I used bagged orchid bark.

The plant usually sits in an east facing garden window over the kitchen sink. I moved the pot for the photo.

The leaves started to look bad, and then the pot broke. There was very little medium left near the base of the roots, and it was very damp, so I think the leaves and roots are just now starting to respond to the air. Also we did have several days of gloom, too. Nice and sunny lately.

I have a south facing window with shutters I can adjust, so I will move Mama and Baby there as soon as I get them new pots.

I think I will repot in bark as I am tremendously qualified as an overwaterer.

After it bloomed twice off the same spike last summer, then again in the fall, and then the keikei grew, I was just so pleased that this little Trader Joe's orchid was doing so well.

You have all been incredibly helpful - I will go read up and send you an update soon.

mary
pcan-z9
16 years ago
Sounds like a plan!! If you tend to overwater bark will work better for you. Sphagnum moss is not a good medium in some situations. Altho, you may want to spread a little on the top of the pot media for those new roots. You can remove it later if you want to.
Pat.......
jank
16 years ago
Thanks, Pat, for that idea of letting a little sphag sit on top for a while when getting things started with a repot. I had been mulling something like that over but wasn't sure if it was a sound plan. Think I will try it this spring...
Jan
howard_a
16 years ago
I am nominating SweetCicely for the position of forum Diplomat At Large. This is not a merely gratuitous compliment because of her handling of matters in this thread alone. I have seen her inate ability to see regular posters in this forum for who and what they are and understand when they have been quoted out of context or otherwise misunderstood. This is a verbose way of saying: yes, my praise of the o.p.'s choice of sphag as a medium had only to do with my support of her choice in that IMO sphag would work as well (or not) for the kei-kei as for the mama plant. However, I did not see a healthy mama plant. Still don't. I am a big picture, looooooong range view, kind of guy. I figured whatever brought mamma to this low point would get junior too, given time. I saw clay pot, bark medium. IME that degree of overpotting needed not be the death of the plant unless culture was subpar. Could be cyclical of course. We just came through probably one of the cloudiest, wettest, NorthEast winters on record. Whole rafts of orchids are dead because of it but we don't know about them because their owners don't know about GardenWeb. My observations came entirely from that place of experience that has seen exactly that kind of kei-kei development and eventual death in phals owned by friends. FWIW.

H
pcan-z9
16 years ago
Still in the business of "nominating" there Howard?..........hmmm???
I would have thought your last "nominees" ........(or should I say nominee) would have taught you something about that - Big Guy.
sweetcicely
16 years ago
What a nice compliment, Howard; thank you.

Not to worry, Pat. Being far too susceptible to foot in mouth disease, I would have to decline. :) And, speaking of fallibility, I apparently spent too much time editing and never saw your original post (above) until after mine went up. I surely would not have intentionally omitted your good advice.

Posting is a treacherous business. Most, here, mean well, but good intentions can and do get lost in translation. Without the background music, these typings are far to easily misunderstood.

Sweetcicely
howard_a
16 years ago
That was awfully mean spirited of you Pat and totally uncalled for. Your memory of recent events isn't too good if you think that I nominated anyone for anything. It was quite the other way around. Want to be a "Big Girl"? Hang around for ten years and all the cachet that comes with longevity can be yours too if you don't poison your public image with evidence of pettiness and inability to let go of a grudge.
pcan-z9
16 years ago
Oh me, oh my, I DARED disagree with - the supreme "enlightened one" - Howard. TWICE!!! and now just look....

Oh Howard please, calm down, you'll blow a fuse again and go off on one of your seemingly endless, aimless rants.

LOL.....you are so predictable ....even down to your recruiting techniques. (I've been around a wee little while myself - how bout that?)

Give Google a rest, put the dictionary down, and listen up....

Don't worry yourself about my "cachet". I prefer the real life variety, as opposed the imaginary kind derived from - a message board - on the internet - at GW - for God's sake. How very sad.
Oh, and speaking of imaginary, where were you master, with all of your words of condemnation when "mike_gee" (your "boy")was spewing "his" vile nonsense on the innocent, all the while praising and applauding your every utterance? You were grinning ear to ear weren't you? Enjoying center stage. You even named (nothing to do with nominating, of course) "him" one of the "enlightened ones". I would think someone such as yourself with a "ten year" seniority/superiority would have spoken out against such a thing. You said nothing, a man in your position(?), you said nothing. Pettiness, mean spirited, uncalled for....... indeed. Please, you and your posse own those words.

Don't fret over my memory either - It's all there in black and white my friend...........copy and paste, and a few other little goodies....

But .....you know what....it's all OK Howard.....who cares? It's a message board. That's it. That's all it is. So, get with the gw high-ups (the ones on your level) and have me banned. Report me. DO IT! Get that rock out of your shoe Howard.....LOL...... I've nothing to loose.

**I** choose to be done with this now, Howard. I've spent all the time on this I intend to. Rant to your vast numbers of adoring fans if you wish.

This "Big Girl" is taking her **hardball** off the court.

"Rock the grow, Brother"
stitzelweller
16 years ago
ouch!
lynkxstcat
16 years ago
**How'bout those Yankees?**
maryhbrock
Original Author
16 years ago
Helloooo and thanks for all the help on this posting and all the others on this board which I tried to read, but I always forget about the FAQs.

I repotted both the Mama and baby in two smaller pots today. Both earthenware; one unglazed, and one glazed but with those nice aeration holes in the sides.

To please all and to use a little of all the ideas put forward, I put medium grade bark in the bottom of each pot. Then I wrapped spag moss around the roots, or what is left of them, and laid them on the top of the bark, tucking in a little moss to fill in the top. I had soaked the moss, then squeezed the moss well, and then separated loose strands so no damp clumps remained. I forgot to buy root hormone, but if I can get out this week, I can unwrap the roots and set it all up again easily.

Now - there were no real roots on the keikei so I left some aerials exposed, and some wrapped loosely in the moss. The mama has lots of nice aerial roots, but everything below the crown looked awful, so I trimmed the icky roots and gently picked out the old medium. Both plants have nice new leaves forming, but the old ones still look pretty tired.

I also realized from reading this forum, that the plants are definitely NOT warm enough, and I am moving them to the south facing window until summer. The kitchen window hovers at 68-70 and probably dips to 64 at night. I could also get a desklight, I guess, but it will be warmer in the laundry room.

I still have watering questions: I'm not bagging (afraid I will forget to check them) so what is the right way to keep the moss and bark moist? I did place both pots on a layer of rocks in a Nambe platter, and added water. I had a brilliant idea, and added very hot water to the tray - Nambe, when warmed, will hold heat for quite a while. Now I realize it was stupid, because until the water evaporates, I can't repeat it. It did warm the window area up about 4 degrees for almost 3 hours, but duh, can't keep it there.

Thank you again, all of you.

mary
mehitabel
16 years ago
Hi, Mary. What you've done sounds ok to me. This time of year the weather is working for you-- it's getting warmer and brighter every week, so your two have a good chance. They want to live, so they'll take advantage of every good you give them.

People say humidity trays do nothing to raise the humidity, but I've been measuring it-- on a humidity tray the humidity at leaf level can be about 45% when other places in the room are 10-15%. So your pebble tray is a good idea.

You'll gain confidence as you go along. Good luck.
stitzelweller
15 years ago
Check out the OP photos. Some "different" growth that I haven't seen on my plants....yet....

Phal help - am I losing the battle?

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