Jim, did you or your neighbors use straw?

Nope. This blend had several different types of fescue and perenial rye, though. I really don't now what the other types look like (chewings, hard, creeping red), but I suppose it could be one of them. Wish I would have kept the bag label. Apparently it's a real popular blend around my area.

Perennial Rye is fine bladed and dense, looks a lot like Kentucky Bluegrass.

The new TTTF looks a lot like some wide bladed Bluegrasses (i.e. Midnight)

Take a picture(s), chances are I can tell you what it is.

Okay, I'll do it and the way it grows it won't be long before I can take a pic. They better not have had K-31 in that bag or I will be livid. I've gone down that road a long time ago.

auteck - best I could do. It (the tall growing grass) seems to be slowing, but what do I know.

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I could probably find another pic if that one is not clear enough. Didn't want to post a huge one.

Here is the other pic - closer to grass. There wasn't any K-31 in the blend, but does PR looki like this??
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It looks more like AR than PR. It could also be some wild fescue...

Plug one out of the ground and tell me if the crown of the grass plant is purple/red?

auteck - the root appears to have a light reddish root to it, but it also could be a pale reddish purple...not really that much color at the very root end so it's a little hard to tell, but definately in that color palette.

Definitely not trying to hijack your thread, just figure if we have the same issue...

Is it lighter green and sort of traveling in patches too? I have this grass which grows much faster and is in patches that are really spreading with time. I'm afraid it's b/c I tried many blends over the last several years, some with KBG in them.

yankee_in_va - if your spots are a lime greee color and have white flower seed pods on top of the grass, you probably have poa annua, and God bless you if you do, 'cause you might not ever get rid of it. :-) I know.

There're way of "controlling" POA, doing the right thing at the right time are two of them.

Jim, is the grass you're talking about has light green color, wide bladed, fast growing, purple/red crown, fibrous root system, and grows in clumps?

A picture will be very helpful, but I think I know what it is. See if you can post a picture, as big as you can.

Here are the close ups...a little blurry but not too bad. Hope you can tell something:
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auteck - this might make things a whole lot simpler:
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I knew it!!! It's Annual Ryegrass.

Leave it alone, it will die shortly. That bag of grass seed probably came from ACE Hardware, right?

Don't buy grass seed there, mail order or find a Lesco Distributor in your area.

Where are you located again?

Never mind, I just spoted your location.

You can go to Southern Seeds in Middlesex, NC, you can find a 50lbs (way more than you probably need) for $175 plus tax. It's the Best of the Blues blend, which has Midnight Star, Prosperity, and Moonlight - all rated for the Raleigh area.

Check NTEP Raleigh location (NC1) for the best performing kentucky bluegrasses for our area. You can also drive to the research campus, which is off of Lake Wheeler (Farmers Market exit but oposite direccion) and look at all the bluegrasses and fescues they are growing (it's very neat)

One of the best KBG varieties for our area right now is NuGlade from Jacklin Seed in Oregon. Check out their website:

Also, Barrister KBG does very well here, too.

Here is a link that might be useful: NuGlade

Thanks for the info auteck. I might just try that new variety of KBG our next fall. I wonder if anyone else in the area carries that newer variety, NuGlade yet? Shipping on that 50# is a bear from the west coast.

I got that bag from Hudson's Hardware in Garner (south Raleigh). I'm glad I saved the blend label.

auteck - I got a reply from NCSU about Nuglade, hoping to hear we have a new super-seed for cool season grasses for our area. Doesn't sound like it from them:
"ÂNuglade is a variety sold by Jacklin Seed that has been around for a few years. It is currently performing very well in our NTEP Kentucky bluegrass trials and consistently ranks in the top group regarding quality and color. Although, IÂm not sure I would use the term Âhardy with any Kentucky bluegrass in this area. Kentucky bluegrasses typically donÂt stand up to our summer heat and drought stress too well without irrigation and fungicide applications. They can also get fairly thatchy if not properly managed regarding fertility and mowing. However, for someone that properly manages KBG they can look really good.

Generally speaking though, in this area we usually recommend that homeowners plant turf-type tall fescues if they want a cool-season grass. You can always mix KBG with it at 2.5-5% by weight."

Jim, Nuglade, Emblem, Barrister, and Midnight 1 and 2 do very well here. One of my neighbors killed his fescue lawn couple of years ago and started new. He seeded TurfBlue from Barenbrug, which is a blend that has Barrister KBG in it. His lawn handled the 2007 and 2008 summer conditions. 2007 was very hot and very dry compare to Raleigh's average temperatures. The 2008 summer was the opposite with the exception of the first 3 weeks in June where we saw zero rain, 2 days of exactly 100 degrees (the only 100 degrees days recorded that summer) and lots of 90's. His lawn suffered little damage (about 5% or less I'd say) Some of his neighbor's fescue lawn suffered from the very common Brown Patch due to the wet conditions experienced all summer in 2008.

In all, I think some of those NCSU reps are somewhat hesitant to recommend bluegrass instead of fescue for some reason. I wonder if the there are being sponsor by grass seed companies that only sell fescue and are told to only promote fescue...

KBG does as well as fescue in the Raliegh area, if not better because it can recover from damage due to its rhizomes.

There has been a recent trend from seed producers that sell grass seed in the Raleigh area to package their fescue bags with KBG (about 5 to 10% which equals to a 50/50% fescue/bluegrass ratio. Most of the Rebel fescue bags have Midnight KBG in it, the Pennington bags have Brooklawn or Shamrock KBG at 10%.

Just last night I was checking KBG ratings for the Raleigh area in NTEP.org; and to my surprise, the Raleigh area (NC1) had better ratings than Maryland, TN, Virginia, and yes, Kentucky, the bluegrass state!

Check it out and let me know what you think:

Here is a link that might be useful: Kentucky Bluegrass Performance in the Transition Zone

I'm having problems posting so I'll get back to yo later, auteck.

Jim, are you still having problems logging in?

Where you able to click on the link provided?

Let me know...

Yep, I'm able to click on it now. I'll look at those varieties and see what I come up with. We have a pretty strong firewall here, and when we get bombarded from time to time they do something to strengthen it, which means unpredictable results online.

Do you guys have sprinkler systems? That helps keep those grasses from burning up in 90 temps better than hauling around hoses, not to mention water restrictions. I don't have the PM shade in a lot of areas that I need yet, so that grass looks like straw if not watered, then fungus sets in, then they clamp down on watering days, and then...
Well, you probably see my point. It really starts to be a real pain keeping up with it.

I'm still gonna try somemore kbg next fall. I'm not much on ordering this stuff online, but if I can find it around the area (lesco's, etc) I'll do that. It has recovered somewhat from the floods last fall, but bare areas still persist which I'll sddress next fall also. Sorry for the last post.

Jim, are you asking me if I have a sprinkler system in my house or at the golf course?

KBG does not burn up in 90 degree temps, disease is the biggest enemy.

Don't have to worry about PM shade, those test plots at the NC State research are in full sun. My front lawn where I have KBG/PRG mix is basically in full sun. I preffer to grow grass in full sun than in shade any time of the day.

You don't have to order online, you can get the Best of Blues KBG blend, which contains all midnight type bluegrass. The blend changes every year, but usually better and better. The blend they had last year contained Midnight Star (this bluegrass is VERY dark green) Prosperity (top ratings at NTEP) and Moonlight (awesome bluegreen color excellent performance in the Transition zone)

Lesco carries 2 blends, one with 3 types of 100% TTTF, and the other one is 3 types of TTTF (about 88%) and 10% Kentucky bluegrass. I'm not sure if they can order you a bag or two of only Kentucky Bluegrass, better ask.

Also, Southern Seeds in Middlesex, NC, can order you any bluegrass seed from www.turf-seed.com

They have a very good varities of bluegrasses.

I'm going the buy the top 5 performing bluegrasses for our areas within the next month so I can have them ready for Fall seeding and testing.

auteck,
Yes, I was asking about sprinkler systems for the home since most folks I've seen with them have much better looking lawns than I. Your paragraph about the Best of Blues KBG blend, etc, did you get that locally? Lesco's?

Anyway, let me know where you get your blend from and how much it is (can't see it being much more than the $100/50# bags I've been buying of tttf) and I might jump on that bandwagon too. Also, I've never seeded straight kbg before and I understand it is much smaller in size than tttf. What is your method of seeding, or do you mix it with something else?

Also auteck...another question, and again I'm referring to your home grass. With your golf course background (which course by the way...I use to bat it around a few years ago), do you do anything to create a better growing environment for kbg/pr than I or any others around the area would? In other words, does your prep and care give the kbg a better chance for survival around Raleigh than I might have?

Jim, I don't have an irrigation, I just have the portable sprinklers that I move around (it's a serious pain in the rear).

The Best of the Blues KBG blend you can buy it at Southern Seeds in Middlesex, NC. About 30 minutes east of Raleigh.

A 50 lb. bag of Best of the Blues will run you $175.00. Those 50 lbs. will cover 25,000 sf. or grass when overseeding at the rate of 2 lbs per 1,000 because the seeds are MUCH smaller than fescue seeds. Get your neighbors to overseed with the same blend and split the cost. You can sell them one pound for $4.00 which will cover 500 sf for overseeding.

Now, bluegrass seed being so small, it is ideal for overseeding projects because the seeds get every where, and it's much easier to get seed to soil contact which improves germination dramatically.

My method of seeding bluegrass seed is just like fescue seed, except the setting on the spreader needs to be a lot less because the seeds are so small. If you don't, you will be putting too much seed and causing too much competition for the new seedlings. I recommend 2 lbs per 1,000 sqf. or grass for overseeding, and 4 lbs per 1,000 sqf. for new lawns.

Whoops, almost missed the thread it fell so far down the forum. I think everyone has woken up from the long winter, it seems.

auteck, so your in the same position I am ... moving them dadgum hoses and sprinklers around. PITA!! I could probably run over to Middlesex for that seed. Did you have to call ahead, and when is a good time to go? I really don't want ot store that seed all summer if I don't have to.

Just for clarification, I'm not gonna seed a new lawn w/kbg. I still like my tttf, so I would like to add more kbg to the mixture, so to speak. I already have some kbg growing, but it's very little at this point. Before last fall's flood-out and fungicide of my lawns I had over 13 different types of tttf blended into my lawns and looking pretty good. I was kinda thinking my lawn was close to indestuctible since I had so many different varieties. HA! What a load of crap that was. Seems the more you work at it and spend more money trying to get that great lawn the more you get slapped back.

I have neighbors who don't do a dam thing to their yards but mow as close to the ground as they can, and that's it. No fert, no anythign else added. They don't even water at any time, and it still looks nice and green. It's probably junk grass if you look at it close, but from the road who can tell.

I'm still a little leary of the seeding process with all those little seeds. I thought I saw where someone once mixed them in with sand, or maybe that was zoysia or something else. Can't remember.

The small seeds you're reffering to is Bentgrass, not Bluegrass. The size of the seeds about the same size of pepper seeds - VERY tiny. There's a different process to spread those down into the grown. I have a patch of Bentgrass that I have been growing for over a year now, and it's doing very well. I used my bare hands to sprinkle the seeds over this very small area. I'll post a picture if you want to see the seed.

Bluegrass seed can be spread just like Fescue or Ryegrass seed, but a much lower setting.

A Fescue/Bluegrass Mix/Blend will be ideal for any lawn in the transition zone. The Fescue gives the lawn disease resistance, the Bluegrass can spread and fill in the voids left by the dead Fescue or Bluegrass.

Get back to me right before your Fall seeding so I can give some tips on how to overseed your Fescue/Bluegrass lawn.

Will do. Thanks.

BTW, have you ever had to fight poa annua over at your house? If so, how did you time your seeding/pre-m for poa activities? Fescue and poa germinate about the same time, so it's pretty difficult for me to get this monster under control, and I really don't want to start all over again ... not after last year and $350 later for seed.

Yes, I have.

What I have done in the past is simply pull them out by hand, or let them die on their own comes the summer heat.

When you buy Quality Sod Seeds, there's little POA Annua in there and fewer weed seeds as well.

What I have found out that works very well is to seed in the Fall, then as soon as your good seed is up in running(this is the reason NC State recommend overseed/seeding in September) and have mowed your lawn a few times, then you can apply Dimension in December or very early January to prevent any future poa annua germination.

Most of the poa annua germination I see happens in late winter to very early spring, then quickly dies in the summer heat. It could take you a year or two in order to control poa annua germination. What it is for sure is that if you do nothing, poa will continue to spread by seeds and the problem gets worse and worse year after year.

I don't have much of a poa annua problem, it comes and goes. It's less conspicuous than broad weeds which can be easely controlled with 2,4-D.

I forgot to mentioned, poa annua is a miserable invader at the golf course. There is no worse weed than poa.

Last year we sprayed the fairways and the some aras adjacent to the driving range with round up in an efford to kill poa annua. It worked, but it also took forever for the bermuda grass to green up despite heavy fertilization and very warm temperatures and plenty of water/rainfall.

The putting greens have some poa annua infestation, and there's little we can do about it. It takes the lower cut and it has a ligher green color like bengrass, but it still a miserable invader.

BTW, we don't use any pre-emergent in our golf course.

Okay, thanks.

I've tried to out-fox it before by reseeding in mid-Sept and cutting it a couple of times then putting out the Dimension, and it seemd to work somewhat.

I've been told that poa will germinate twice around here, as early as late August to late Sept, then again between Dec and late Feb. It's kinda tough getting the timing down when you don't really know when to apply teh control.

That is correct, it will germinate twice.

The first batch of germination will occur in the Fall, BUT, if you seed in late summer (end of August) chances are your good seed will get going first and the poa annua will have limited success. You can apply Dimension as soon as your seedlings have been mowed 3 times, that will reduce amount of weeds and poa annua.

The second bath of germination will occur in late February to very early March. If you put down Dimension in Thanksgivig Day for example, or early December, you will have 4 solid months of protection and that will prevent many winter weeds from germinating and will also prevent poa annua germination in February and March.

I hear you, not an easy thing to get rid of, but manageable.

I think the best way is to have your lawn survive the summer without injury (easier said than done) then apply Dimension in August, then again in December for total eradication.

If you overseed with bluegrass, you can always roundup poa annua and let the blue spread and fill in the bare spots during the growing season.

KBG can spread to about a dinner-size plate in one growing season in many areas in the country, Raleigh included.

Good thoughts auteck. I've rethought this dam poa thing so many times it makes me dizzy trying to get the timing right. I might try it your way this year. I'll still have to forget about the first round and reseed the kbg/tttf instead, then hit it late with Dim to catch that late gemination cycle. I've done that before with fairly good results, but this past fall was a whole lot different with the loss of so much my grass to fungus.

Thanks again. I'll try to let this thread die a happy one. :-)