tapla, I agree whole heartedly with much of what you say. The rest? Well, I'd just like to add my own perspective. The debate on knowledge versus experience is ongoing. "Experience" was distilled for me when I was admonished, "You need to distinguish the difference between '10 years' experience' and '1 year's experience - ten times.'"
Then there is the Q & A.
"How do you avoid mistakes?"
"You gotta have experience!"
"How do you get experience?"
"You gotta make mistakes!"
For me this means that real learning, wisdom, if I may dare to say, is the unending process of observe, question, seek answers and repeat the process for as long as you live.
I am sure that you are familiar with the anecdote of Newton, sitting under an apple tree and going through this process.
Another thought I wish to add is this. Learn from a historic perspective.
Two personal examples.
I finally understood Archimedes' principle after reading something of the life of Archimedes - years after I had left school.
There was a time (surprisingly?) when Archimedes himself did not know this principle and by reading of his life, I could follow his investigation and completely understand his conclusion.
My best textbook on microbes has been "Microbe Hunters" by Paul de Kruif. It started with the discovery of the lens by Leeuwenhoek and is a sweet book. Again, those men of science, some obscure and others famous, were as ignorant as I of this huge field of study. That book gave me knowledge better than any classroom lecturer could; but more importantly, it crystallized for me, the exquisite interaction of knowledge and experience.
Finally, I have gained much by associating with people who are older than me, more knowledgeable than me and more experienced than me; but I must acknowledge that a significant portion of the insights I have gained were set off when a young child asked, "WHY....?" I am sure that you can fill in the blanks from your own experience.

+1 Al and Ron!

Well said. Knowledge and experience build on each other as you go through life. I have a boss who is still doing things the way he did 30 years ago, and it makes some of us nuts!

I had intended the discussion to be more about keeping up with, and being open to what happens around us, but your comments were very well said, Ron. I can tell you put plenty of thought into your post. I hadn't even thought much about the experience/knowledge thing actually, and when I read your post, was surprised you brought it up. However, after I reread my post, I see that I spent quite a bit of time trying to convey my thoughts on that, so I'm glad you mentioned it. It wasn't that I wanted to have that aspect as the focus of the thread, just that it took longer to develop that point than some of the other things I said.

I don't have any strong disagreement with anything you said, but I thought quite a bit about your comment:
"How do you avoid mistakes?"
"You gotta have experience!"
"How do you get experience?"
"You gotta make mistakes!"

In my actual case, and this repeats itself over and over as I continue moving forward in my pursuit of plant husbandry, is that: I had a bad experience - I gained knowledge from it, but only the knowledge that I shouldn't do it again - I sought out more knowledge, applicable to my predicament and applied it - my next experience was good - the knowledge was reinforced by the more recent experience, but what was the key? For me, it's been knowledge hands down. I can do things with plants now, that I never could have imagined you could do w/o the knowledge that the technique exists and the knowledge of how to implement the technique. Experience never could have taught me those things - I was incapable of even imagining some of the things I use now as a matter of course.

What I came up with after some introspection of my own growing abilities (because that's really where my focus lies - growing abilities), and looking out across the field of other growers I know, is that experience has only taught me what not to do, where knowledge teaches me what to do. ;o)

Thanks, Ron - Rdak & Watergal, too.

I hope, if anyone wants to comment, that they feel free to, and that we can prove it's possible to have a pleasant discussion about changing times, technology, and ideas, or go wherever you want to, as long as we don't stray too far afield. ;o) I promise that if anyone starts beating up on a poster, I'll go to the webmaster and point out why I'm asking for the thread to be pulled. It would really be great to see the folks who have been reluctant to post expressing their thoughts.

Al

Al,
I agree that being knowledgable to what is going on around you in the field you choose. This applies to all aspects of life, (don't get me started on the decline of morals and family values) but sometimes you have to realize that some of the old timey ways are better than the newer production line aspects.

I grow plants, because the child in me still likes to play in dirt. I shudder to think that a machine could take all that away, cheaper and faster. To quote Bertold, "Where's the fun in that?" (Adventures of Barron Munchausen) I don't like the way the personal aspect of any field is replaced with sterile and staunchy beurocracy with no concern with what's right for the products or the people who enjoy them.

I'm not saying that experiment is not a good thing, we wouldn't have penicillin if it weren't for experimentation. I just don't like how machinery that makes our lives more productive also makes us more lazy and less connected to our immediate enviroment. I'm not an enviromentalist, however I do believe in being a good stuard of what I have. i can't do that if production is the main concern.

Look at vineyards, my uncle has a vineyard which is all done by hand, pruning, picking, spraying etc. I see these other vineyards which have huge tractors with harvesting arms which rip the plants up and sprayers on them which spray more up in the air than on the vines, how in the world are they supposed to know if they really need the sprays if they don't get off the tractor and look?

There are just some places people should not go like genetic mutation which cause more problems for the enviroment than any disease the plant or animal could carry would, not to mention the produce is not as healty as homegrown. Besides most of that is just freaky scarry.

I'm sorry to hijack but a lot of progress scares me and seems more of a regression in most things.

Those that can, do.
Those that cant........teach!

Oh, Mentha, I know what you mean about progress. It's definitely not all good, and it's certainly not all satisfying to our way of life or our soul. I don't think we're required to embrace it, that's a personal decision. I think that what CAN be bad for us though, is to just not realize what options are open to us. It's OK to resist whatever aspects of so-called "progress" we choose, but the knowledge available options allows us to make considered decisions based on aspects widened by learning.

Like you, there are plenty of things in life I DON'T want to know, things I would rather be kept hidden from me, but when it comes to plants, I want to know all I can. I'll sort out what I can or don't want to use later. ;o)

BTW - I didn't even think you might be hi-jacking the thread until you mentioned it. and then I realized you were wrong (about the hi-jacking) anyway, so the apology was unnecessary.

Al

To other readers - please don't rail at Jeannie if she wants to post. As long as she's disagreeing with me personally, I'm fine with it & she can have her say. If she gets abusive of anyone else, I'll contact the webmaster & suggest others do the same if they feel annoyed.

Wow.....you need to grow up jeannie. Everyone else here is able to carry on a thread without becoming personal and attacking someone. Even when there is controversy. I am very surprised you continued on a totally new thread. It comes back to those who are just trying to disturb the peace for the sake of attention.

I think these forums can be a better source of information that a garden center or nursery. I don't come here looking for the "right" answer. I come here because I know that someone here has been through it, and can offer suggestions.

Thank you to everyone who has taken time from their day to offer advice, tips, photos and stories to others on this site. Thank you for being helpful, thoughtful and friendly.

I have enough drama in my life as I am sure others do, that when I come here, I am looking for a break, a soulful second to get away from everything else and put my focus on something that truly enjoy.

Let's keep this place a positive experience.

I agree that some new methods are less personal, more bureaucratic or detached, or just plain stupid. But some are great. I'd never want to go back to the days of typing on a typewriter (anyone remember carbon paper and whiteout? Yikes!). Or the days without the internet or without Gardenweb.

It's probably best to start with knowledge over experience, if one must choose between the two. But after you have the knowledge, it is the experience that reinforces what works best in the real world and what doesn't. And sometimes you just have to see and touch the results for it all to make sense.

When I started working as a interior plant technician, my mentor told me to "write up a plant for replacement about a month before it dies". I laughed at her. After three years, I still can't always guess that one just right, but I know when one is going downhill slowly or quickly. Sometimes they bounce back, or at least stop declining for a while, so I don't have to replace them after all.

I can look across a room now at many plants and tell whether they need more or less water, by specific tips coworkers have shared with me, mostly specific to various species. A yellow pothos leaf from overwatering is a different color yellow than if is has been underwatered, but I can't really describe it. A dracaena masseanga holds its leaves out a certain way when it's happily watered. A dracaena marginata has a dark spot in the middle of the trunk when it's still wet. A ficus 'alii' gets brown tips on the ends when it's been overwatered. And on and on.

I'm smiling, Sheila. Your comment "... write up a plant for replacement about a month before it dies." reminds me of a story I might have told before, but some may not have heard it.

I was taking a bonsai workshop from an old Japanese master, one of the men who was instrumental in helping to bring bonsai to the west - Mr. Ben Oki. One of the workshop participants asked about how to properly water the Shimpaku junipers we were styling (working on). Mr. Oki hesitated for just the right amount of time before he replied in broken English, "Wait until plant become completely dry ..... then water day before." He never smiled, but his humor always tended to be dry. You often couldn't tell if he was joking unless his eyes twinkled. This time, I couldn't tell if there was a twinkle or not. It may just have been his halting English that made him say it the way he did, or he may have intended it to be a joke. I'll never know, but I'll always remember it because whether you took it as a joke, or something he meant as sound advice, the sagacity of what he said still shone through. ;o)

Al

Nice thread, Al. It set me thinking. ;o)

KNOWLEDGE. I had been gardening in a haphazard sort of way for some 15 years before coming to this country 12 years ago, having just reached the conclusion that there must be more to it than just planting whatever struck my fancy at the garden center. Especially had I come to suspect that there was more to soil than met the eye. (Turned out I was right about that!) I was excited to find out about the Master Gardener class. 3 months later I came away with a very heavy volume of condensed information and the realization that I hadnt even scraped the surface of a mountain of knowledge.

Luckily I had the good fortune to meet a woman who quickly became a close friend. Together we embarked on an exciting adventure. Over the years we have subscribed to all the major gardening magazines, poring over articles, discussing them. We have bought and shared books about gardening and books by gardeners. We have visited botanical gardens, arboreta, garden seminars, garden symposiums, listened to almost countless gardening presentations. We have ordered stacks of catalogs, perusing them carefully, looking up information about the plants we knew nothing about. There have been Âduh moments, when we come across seemingly obvious pieces of information (but not to us), and moments of pleasure at finding exactly what we needed to know.

I cannot imagine growing plants without knowing what I am doing. Having watched my mother effortlessly grow anything anywhere, I had been surprised to find myself in difficulties. Gardening by trial and error is time consuming (and expensive), an effort to reinvent the wheel in fact. Some people, like my mother, do just great without reading a single book about gardening, but for the great majority, investing in education pays off in a major way. Just imagine how many years it would take to learn to grow potatoes without a text book.

EXPERIENCE. Knowledge without experience is like reading a cook book without ever making a meal. In my opinion, there is nothing like hands-on experience. Being one-on-one with a new plant, a design challenge, a pruning task or a pesky pest problem is a quick way to establish how much youÂve learned and what skills you need to improve. A seemingly simple task as watering is a good example. It takes experience to find out just what the right method is for your situation.
Another example is plant id. It took me years to learn to identify poison ivy, or more accurately, once I found it in my own garden, I knew exactly what it looks like, and IÂll never forget. The pictures never quite made it to my satisfaction.

Also useful is the experience of other gardeners. Sharing stories and visiting fellow gardeners increases your own store of experience (as long as youÂre willing to listen and accept). My friend and I both garden in similar conditions, lots of trees, lots of shade, lots of challenges. However, we were quite pleased to find that all things werenÂt equal, she can grow plants that I cannot and vice versa, my pH levels are different than hers, even our soils are different although we live quite near each other. We walk through our gardens together, closely following the development of herbaceous and woody plants, discussing problem areas, enjoying the successes, sharing lucky moments of chance and those of more deliberate planning, evaluating failures. This way weÂre doubling our rate of experience, learning not only from our own back yard, but from each otherÂs as well.

KNOWLEDGE + EXPERIENCE. Sounds much like the Garden Web, doesnÂt it? Swapping information and experiences with people from all walks of life is both fun and rewarding, adding another dimension to gardening beyond the actual activity. Not to sidetrack, what I really wanted to say was that I believe they go hand in hand. We seek out knowledge to master the task at hand, then continue on to the next level of skills. I cannot imagine gardening as a static condition, where a person would never progress beyond whatever level he or she started at.

AlÂs friend Fred, and mine, at 94, is still learning, and heÂs thoroughly enjoying every moment. To me, that is poignant proof that seeking knowledge has some interesting, and beneficial, side effects. What do you think, Al?

I relish seeking and finding knowledge. It keeps my mind occupied and focused. The anticipation of learning new skills adds interest to my life. Gardening is a perfect venue in this respect; there is an infinite amount of both available. And - as a bonus, sharing (giving AND receiving) knowledge is a great way to connect to others!

Louise

Knowledge without experience is like reading a cook book without ever making a meal.

My mom calls that being an educated idiot.

Just yesterday my husband told me the same thing pertaining to sitting under tultage about something and not consulting the object/text/person discussed. It's like reading the Cliff Notes or reader's digest condensed version and expecting to get the same experience as reading the whole story. There is something lost in the translation.

Well, well - hello, Louise. A pleasant surprise to see you here .... ;o) By the length of what I wrote, you can tell I'm as snowbound as you.

Louise (I'll let the cat out of the bag and tell you that's her middle name, so it sounds foreign to me) and I are good friends. We've traveled together to far parts of the country, mostly in search of knowledge, but for new experiences too. We've also attended dozens & dozens of educational events together. She is (next to the 'Fred' we both mention) probably the best person I've yet met at identifying plants by name and being able to tell you what their cultural wants/needs are. I wouldn't think of going on my spring pilgrimage to Detroit to buy all my plants for the dozens of containers I put together each year as garden display plantings without her. She's a skilled plantsman & is always very eager to learn. ;o)

I really intended for the thread to address keeping up with what's new, and being open to new ideas, techniques, innovations - not being stuck in the rut of being insistent that there is only one way to do something and that change is bad, but it looks like the experience:knowledge thing is winning out, so we'll go there.

Louise asked: "Als friend Fred, and mine, at 94, is still learning, and hes thoroughly enjoying every moment. To me, that is poignant proof that seeking knowledge has some interesting, and beneficial, side effects. What do you think, Al?"

I thought Fred was 92 and here I find he is 94. I was at his 90th b-day party, but I guess the years are passing more quickly than I realize - and women are sooo much better than I, at keeping track of important things like birthdays, anniversaries, and other important dates. Why is that ......?

I think that Fred has passion. He is passionate about people and he is passionate about his plants. He loves nothing more than to be among his plant friends, learning and teaching. He was the first person to actually give me any guidance in my bonsai endeavors, and the thing he told me, tried most to impress upon me, didn't sink in at first.

I don't remember his exact words, some 15+ years ago, but what he told me was: if I want to be successful in growing bonsai, I MUST learn about plants. I must learn how they work and how soils work - otherwise my efforts will be, at best, only frustrating.

I didn't have the sense to believe him then, so I jumped right into bonsai & soon learned he was right. It took only a few short months for experience to teach me just how much I didn't know. I could have plowed blindly ahead & depended on experience and trial & error to guide me, but I started studying, and I can say that (like Louise asked about) the side effects of what I learned have been so very beneficial. I NEVER could have come to where I am today as a plant person w/o my focus being primarily on knowledge.

That doesn't mean I'm inexperienced, at all, and every day my experiences validate some piece of knowledge I already have. It's the same for you guys. You can read something in these forums that one of us has learned and all of a sudden, a light goes on, or you might retain it in your memory & a month from now, your experiences might cause you to recall what you read & you say "Oh Yeah! NOW, I get it." This is another case of experience validating knowledge.

Louise & Mentha both mentioned cooking as an analogy, so let me paint a picture:

Imagine two people who know nothing about cooking - no experience whatsoever. The first person (I'm going to make him a guy, because I'm the cook around here) ;o) is put in a huge kitchen with all the utensils & everything needed to create a 10 course gourmet meal including a fancy desert for Louise and Mentha. Not gonna happen - right?

The second person is schooled in all the cooking techniques - knows how to make the sauces, studies presentation, knows exactly how baking powder makes the biscuits rise and how proteins in meat break down to make it tender - this person is essentially an educated idiot. So, if you put him in the same kitchen ...... It prolly STILL ain't gonna happen - right? Which will come closer to being able to present an edible meal ... The person with no experience or knowledge, or the educated idiot with no experience?

Let's take it a step further. The person with no experience or knowledge is left to his own devices, but he doesn't seek knowledge beyond what he learns by his own experience. He plods through the kitchen day after day making mistake after mistake ruining meal after meal and having failure after failure, until after a lifetime of trying he might have figured out how to make a presentable gourmet meal.

Back to the educated idiot now .... ;o) He keeps studying & studying - learning fresh, new things & techniques. His first meal was a dismal failure, but a week later, he makes a meal that's pretty good. A year later, he is still studying and making fancy dinners with wonderful presentations. 5 years later he's a chef at a fancy restaurant. 10 years later, he has his own cooking school and is teaching other chefs what he's learned so they can benefit from his knowledge and experience. Why is this? His meager, but growing experience is validating time after time what he already knows and he has eliminated 90% of the trial and error mistakes the other cook depends on almost exclusively for knowledge.

Where is the cook who embraces nothing new & refuses to learn? Still stuck in a rut, plodding along and unable to even make proper sense of the results of his actions or what he observes in the kitchen.

I could easily have made the analogy about greenhouse operators or hobby growers like us, but as a friend is fond of saying, "We work with what we have." and a cook is what I was given. ;o)

Al

Louise, that was a great essay you just wrote!

Louise and Al, you guys are lucky to have great gardening buddies. Except for a couple of coworkers that I don't get to work with very often, and my online GardenWeb friends, I pretty much garden, and learn about gardening, alone. I tend to be an introvert anyway - I will probably end up as a 90-something old lady living alone in a house crammed full of plants and not much else (like a "crazy cat lady", only I'll be a "crazy plant lady").

I do have enough plant passion (and the good genes on my mother's side) to make it well into my 90's. I hope my body can keep gardening that long. I already have rotator cuff damage form overuse working at a nursery a few years back.

...and then there are people like me. When I want to cook or bake something new, I look up recipes, and invariable change them to suit myself. The cookbook recipe sounds good, but I suspect it'd be even better if I used butter instead of shortening, steamed instead of boiled, threw in some toasted pecans...whatever.
I use the same M.O. with plant growing. I like to hear suggestions, and then I adapt the advice to suit myself.

To me, Knowledge vs Experience is kind of like the argument of "nature vs. nurture"...they're hand in hand. Being able to change and adapt means both adapting what you do based on what others suggest, and adapting others' suggestions to fit your own style and growing conditions.