Another 5-1-1 mix with pictures

13 years ago

Hello.

I figured I'd start this thread to show these products to the community as well as get feedback from you folks on it's quality and suitability. And last but not least to say a huge Thanks to the GW forum at large and of course Al. :)

Here goes:

First a picture of most of the ingredients (Missing is the Espoma Garden Lime):

Next is the picture of what I used for Bark. It is Earthgro Groundcover Bark, and it smells amazingly good :). Sorry I forgot to include an object for reference :

Next is the Perlite. I was pretty happy to find this product from NorCal as all others seemed much much smaller/finer grained.

I used MiracleGrow Organic Soil mix (not the Container mix). The soil mix is finer and resembles peat moss more. Couldn't find any other organic brand.

And last is the finished mix. I did no screening or sifting. Just measured out 5 parts bark, 1.5 parts Perlite and 1 part garden soil. Once the mix was in the container I sprinkled the called for portion of Garden Lime on top.

Thanks again to all of you great folks on all the forums of GW.

Rudy

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Comments (16)

kemistry
13 years ago
Funny, I have the same thought about the barks smelling good. When it comes to watering time, sniff sniff, lol. :)
greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
13 years ago
Hey, Rudy!
So glad to see you on the Container Forum! ;-)
What you read/learn here can be applied to all container growing - whether Hot Peppers or Plumerias.

Great job getting the mix together. I think you'll be very pleased over the Summer....especially
down south where you're growing.

My only advice would be to incorporate the Lime throughout the media, although I don't think you'll
have problems necessarily. I just prefer to distribute the Lime evenly.

A good set of kabob skewers or chop-sticks to leave in the containers will be the best way to tell
if the mix needs to be watered.

Josh
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December pictures of my plants in the gritty and 5.1.1mixes..
Q
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Mike: Fantsastic looking plants! I am so glad you decided to go with the 5.1.1 mix:-). You have come a long way with your plants..Just wonderful. Let us know when would love to use a mix that last's a lot longer than that, and we will get hooked on the gritty mix..:-)Nice lights too. Jodik and Al: I appreciate your vote of confidence in me..That means alot expecially coming from the very ones that helped me every step of the way and especially the one that introduced this concept and mix to me in the first place, Al:0) By the way, Sissy say's "right back at you".. Thank you! Josh: Thank you for your input while I was sick. Your right, and I figure if anyone is really interested in what coir has done for my plants, let alone see pictures, all they would have to do is plug my name into the search field and they can see my journet from begining till recent. Coir stinks, and that's that.;-) Plant48: Thanks for the congrats..It is not the first time my good friends and teacher have commented on my plants. Just do search of my threads. Eggplant and Christine: Thank you much.Your can look like this if you just hang around this forum for a while..Thank you Christine. Posting pictures is easy..If you have photbucket, just upload and we will tell you from there if you do so. Hi mrlike2u, how are you? Sorry I missed you this weekend..Maybe next time.;-) Xuan: Just BEAUTIFUL as always! I love every picture you show us just as much as I love everyone"s!! You pictures always make me feel warm and cozy..lol. Thank you! You are so lucky not to have to face this dreaded cold winter.. I use to like it when I snow boarded..Not anymore.. Have a happy one everybody..I would love to see more pics by the way.. Mike..:-)))
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giving the 5:1:1 mix another shot
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Comments (3)
Remember that I use the gritty mix and not the 5:1:1 mix for my houseplants. Also, I water almost everything on a 3 day rotation because I CAN, not necessarily because I have to. I'll explain. I have a few plants in containers so small they require watering every other day. Many of my plants can go much longer than 3 days between waterings, but to make things easier on me and to ensure nothing slips through the cracks, I water the rest on a 3 day rotation, whether the plants need it or not. THAT, is one of the benefits of using the gritty mix - it's so forgiving that you would really have to work at it to over-water. It's open poor structure due to large particle size ensures no, or VERY little, perched water ..... which is WHY it's so hard to over-water. FYI - in order to maximize water retention w/o a significant PWT, and in a perfect world, you would want porous and durable particles concentrated in the size range from slightly smaller than 1/8" to slightly larger than 1/4" or up to 3/8", with a small fraction of small particles to increase water retention additionally w/o adding any significant amount of perched water. A large disparity in particle size works against you. I compromise in this area all the time, using bark with the fines included and many chunky pieces larger than 3/8, but I keep a supply of bark that closest fits the profile I prefer on hand, and I'm always looking for 'the right stuff' when my supply starts to get low. I've found several brands and locations I can usually depend on to provide what I prefer, so keep your eyes peeled. I mentioned that because I think if you'd been lucky enough to find a bark product not so chunky, that there wouldn't be as much of an issue with toppling. Many of my plants are temporarily and mechanically secured to the pot by various methods. One reason is to prevent toppling because all of my plants are repotted in the summer when they're outdoors and in the wind. The other reason is plants secured against movement in relation to the pot establish anchorage in a fraction of the time required by unsecured plants. Bumping or jostling them, even turning them to water, can break large numbers of hair roots the plant needs for anchorage as well as taking up water and nutrients. In the end, I'd much rather see people approach the whole soil thing in a leisurely way instead of feeling pressured because of poor plants or new found information. There is no question in my mind that the more open soils offer plants MUCH greater opportunity to grow to their potential, but like you, we have to decide if they fit into our view of what's expected in terms of convenience. Keep fussing with your soils. I think you understand the concept, which is the important thing; if not, you're getting there fast, and it will always be a point of reference to help you diagnose any future problems you relate to your soils. I'll be glad to help whenever I can and as needed. Al
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5-1-1 mix is beginning to decompose after 1.5 months - normal?
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Comments (1)
Even if there was a a significant N supply, there wouldn't be a notable breakdown of the bark within such a short period. Might you be noting the bark particles snuggling together more tightly, which reduces the o/a volume by diminishing air space? How long a soil lasts can be over-shadowed by the need to repot or divide plantings, or in some cases just turn them onto the compost pile if the planting is comprised of annuals. As plantings mature, the root system often become a part of the soil structure (with some soils, that never happens because the lower part of the soil is always saturated). I've seen some plantings where at least 90% of the original soil mass has gassed off, leaving only a small fraction of soil in a pot filled with roots. If you are growing a plant that doesn't produce an extensive root system, you can probably go 2 years using the 5:1:1 mix before collapse becomes much of a problem. If you have a planting with a vigorous root system, once you get to the 2 or 3 year point, the roots have either becoming a part of the soil's structure, so even as the 5:1:1 soil breaks down and collapses, the roots themselves should be contributing to aeration and drainage, or roots have formed a mat so dense that water and gases don't penetrate. In either case the remedy is repotting or if appropriate, dividing. Al
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Is Al's gritty mix or 5-1-1 mix really any better than other mixes?
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Comments (32)
@Nil13 made reference to the Whitcomb 311 mix, which is an earlier historical attempt to create a more coarse potting soil for container plants. I think it is extremely helpful to read a document written by Carl Whitcomb that explains how he came on this formula by accident. Essentially what happened is he accidentally left nine test pots under a bench and everyone forgot they were there. They had successfully nearly killed all of their test plants by watering in a normal potting soil mix and the unwatered plants started to do very well. What I have started to realize is that any plant can do well in many different soil mixes, if you are able to carefully control the watering. This explains why so many people on this forum claim gritty mix is not as good for their succulents as their (fill in some random horrible soil with lots of small particles) mix. Inevitably those people are growing their plants indoors. They have enormous experience with their plant type and they know exactly when to water the plant. So that is the case of a very skilled gardener compensating for a very bad soil. What gritty mix does for me is let me grow succulents outside in very abusive weather conditions, without the plant dying. A plant can get a week of rain and it will still drain well. During Summer, gritty mix will tolerate a bit of overwatering, although you still really need to pay attention to not overwatering. Whether you make your 511 mix with perlite/peat, or with two parts Turface, or with lava and pumice, is probably in the big picture not going to be the deciding factor in whether your plants grow well or not. Success can be add with any of those mixes because the size of the particles allows the roots to breathe and prevents capillary action of water from bring the perched water table to the top of the pot and drowning the roots. Fine-tuning how you make 511 is a question of matching the plant type to the moisture retention of the soil and to the watering habit and climate exposure. Any 511 variant is going to do better than almost any commercial potting soil because of the larger particles used in the majority of the mix.
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Karly30
13 years ago
Looks Great! Kosherbaker, will you share where you found the Earthgro? I'm also in the Los Angeles area and looking to make this mix.
kosherbaker
Original Author
13 years ago
Thanks Josh. Can you explain to me why you feel the lime should be worked into the mix? I thought that it is there to counterbalance the acidity of the bark.

Hi Karly. I can absolutely share, since this was the primary reason I posted. :) As it took me a while to find all the ingredients. I got the Bark at Home Depot it's $4 for 2 sf. I also got the garden soil there it's $7 for 1.5 sf. The Espoma Garden Lime was purchased there as well for $4. The Perlite I bought at Anawalt Lumber it was $17 for 2 cf. If memory serves me correctly Anawalt also carries Pumice, but I think they were out of stock on that. I also saw the Peat Moss there but it was Alaskan one and not the Canadian. I'm not sure what the difference is.
Lastly Home Depot carries 2 types of Perlite one from Miracle Grow in small packages like 8quarts for I think $4 and another one in a light green plastic bag that claims OMRI certification that's $16 for 2cf, however, both had far far smaller granules that the one I found at Anawalt.

Let me know if you have further questions.
HTH
Rudy
gman68558
13 years ago
For those in California you can get Perlite at OSH for about $11 for 2 cf. They have the Earthgro there also.
tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
13 years ago
Rudy - the lime serves both to raise pH and to act as a source of Ca & Mg. It acts somewhat 'locally' because of its insolubility, and for that reason is best when incorporated thoroughly throughout the root zone.

FWIW - if I had my druthers, I would have chosen either peat or a peat-based potting soil as a replacement for the 1 part peat in the 5:1:1 ratio. Not trying to be critical - just helpful. ;-)

Al
greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
13 years ago
Thanks, Al!
Hey, Rudy, Al nailed it. I try to mix the Lime as thoroughly as possible....
I sort of dust and stir, dust and stir, until it looks as though the Lime has lightly
coated all the bark.

Josh
kosherbaker
Original Author
13 years ago
"For those in California you can get Perlite at OSH for about $11 for 2 cf. They have the Earthgro there also."
Thanks Gman. How have you found the OSH Perlite so far? I visit the store near me often. It's the one on Bundy but they never seem to stock the large Perlite bags, also things tend to cost more there. Is the Perlite itself very fine? This Perlite seems to have the highest ratio of large granules that I have found so far.
"Rudy - the lime serves both to raise pH and to act as a source of Ca & Mg. It acts somewhat 'locally' because of its insolubility, and for that reason is best when incorporated thoroughly throughout the root zone."Ahhh. So then that makes perfect sense. For whatever reason I thought it was minutely water soluble.
"FWIW - if I had my druthers, I would have chosen either peat or a peat-based potting soil as a replacement for the 1 part peat in the 5:1:1 ratio. Not trying to be critical - just helpful. ;-) "Are you kiddn' you're so nice I don't think it's possible to be offended by you. Besides I'm clearly a noob. :) Now I purchased Gardening soil instead of Potting soil for this exact reason. This product contains Sphagnum Peat Moss in it and its texture resembles peat moss much closer than the potting soil. Home Depot does sell Peat Moss also from Miracle Grow, as I can't seem to get away from this brand. :O But it is augmented. I also found some peat moss at the store that I purchased the Perlite from but it was from Alaska and not Canada, so I got cold feet, not knowing if it was any good. Can you explain, or point me with a link to an explanation, why you prefer 100% peat moss to a soil mixture that contains it?
"Thanks, Al!
Hey, Rudy, Al nailed it. I try to mix the Lime as thoroughly as possible....
I sort of dust and stir, dust and stir, until it looks as though the Lime has lightly
coated all the bark. "
Hmmm this makes me a little nervous. The Espoma Garden Lime I purchased isn't in the powder form. It looks like tiny round balls, some bigger some smaller. But all of them smaller than a grain of rice.
tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
13 years ago
Using a peat-based potting soil instead of juts peat is perfectly fine (but an unnecessary expense), but different than using a 'garden soil' like you alluded to in your post above. That term suggests a significant fraction of mineral soil (topsoil or sand) that when combined with the peat is sure to encourage compaction and lots of water retention. If it happens NOT to contain a significant fraction of mineral soil, kindly disregard what I said. ;o)

The 'prilled lime you bought is actually the came lime Josh is using .... except: a slurry of pulverized lime and a binding agent is mixed with water and shot from tall 'prilling' towers. It forms small spheres on the way down and hardens. This is done to make the pulverized lime easier to broadcast in fertilizer spreaders, but it also makes it easier to incorporate in our soils. When the lime gets wet, the prills quickly break down into pulverized form, so the 'prills' are much more soluble than unpulverized limestone of the same size would be.

Al
newgen
13 years ago
I appreciate the photos, worth a million words! Now if anybody can point out where to obtain the ingredients for the gritty mix (I like it more due to it lasting longer before I have to repot).

Thanks,
malibu_rose
13 years ago
Thanks to Rudy, I purchased all my ingredients at Home Depot last night. I want to know how much of the Lime mixture to add. Somewhere I read 1/2 cup dolomite lime per 15 gallons. Is that correct?
greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
13 years ago
1 tablespoon per 1 gallon....

Josh
malibu_rose
13 years ago
Thanks, Josh! Now I am going to start mixing! Got two hibiscus that I rescued from Lowe's's sales rack last night to start planting with in the new mix!
kosherbaker
Original Author
13 years ago
Sorry about disappearing there for a few days. :) Had to frantically prepare for Passover, as I always seem to be late. :O
Anyway, thank you Josh and Al for all of your help. I just realized that I never mentioned what I'm growing. My containers are #15 and I'm using them to grow peppers, tomatoes, eggplants, Cucumber and Brussel Sprouts. I also have a few herbs in smaller containers. All fruits (i.e. trees) and melons go elsewhere. Namely my mom's back yard in San Diego, along with a copy of everything I grow for myself.

I have a new questions that I've been wanting to ask for a while and haven't seen it covered yet in this forum. Maybe, I didn't look right. In any case, I live about 3 miles form the beach and theoretically I could go there in the morning and gather up the Kelp that washes up on shore. What do you guys think about its use in the containers? And if it is advisable in what form? As in cut up in pieces? Used as tea? Pulverized with water and added as a mush? I appreciate the photos, worth a million words! Now if anybody can point out where to obtain the ingredients for the gritty mix (I like it more due to it lasting longer before I have to repot).
Hi newgen. Maybe if you post where you are in Central Cal. Like what city, someone may know something in your surroundings. Josh is in Central California as well. In the meantime here's a link to a thread on this very forum that lists suppliers for Al's Gritty Mix by state: Gritty Mix Suppliers by State
Thanks to Rudy, I purchased all my ingredients at Home Depot last night. I want to know how much of the Lime mixture to add. Somewhere I read 1/2 cup dolomite lime per 15 gallons. Is that correctHi malibu_rose the thanks is definitely not to me. Thanks to Al and of course Josh who has you pretty well covered. I went ahead and included the link to Al's thread down below, as I should have done in the original post. BTW if you are in Malibu you are really nearby. I'm in Santa Monica. :)

Rudy

Here is a link that might be useful: Al's Amazing Container Soils Thread
greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
13 years ago
Hey, Rudy! A joyous Passover to you, sir!

The kelp will best serve in the yard or raised beds, but not so much in the containers.
The fine particles/mush will impede drainage and aeration, which is what you've carefully
built into your container mixes. Composted kelp would be excellent for in-ground gardening.
You might want to rinse the kelp, though - I'm not sure what the actual salt content is.

Lastly, I'm in Northern California ;-)

Josh
kosherbaker
Original Author
13 years ago
Hey, Rudy! A joyous Passover to you, sir!:) Thank you. It's my favorite holiday. Although it's almost over. Tonight starts the last day.
The kelp will best serve in the yard or raised beds, but not so much in the containers.
The fine particles/mush will impede drainage and aeration, which is what you've carefully
built into your container mixes. Composted kelp would be excellent for in-ground gardening.
You might want to rinse the kelp, though - I'm not sure what the actual salt content is.
What about the "Kelp Tea" with the solids strained? Or Kelp cut up into larger chunks, the size of the particles in the mix? I'm basically curious if the plant can derive any benefit from the Kelp/Konbu plant harvested directly from the sea shore and not composted.
Lastly, I'm in Northern California ;-) Doh! Boy do I feel even more foolish than usual. :) You are actually north of Sacramento. Sorry about that. Momentary brain freeze? Perhaps. :)

Thanks.
Rudy

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kemistry

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