If you are going to listen to me then dont ever call a person unhappy who disagrees with you. It undercuts your point of view as in cutting your feet off.. If you cant make your point otherwise then desist. Really. It is in no way a strong argument for you point of view. Imagine yourself in a debate. Calling your opponent "unhappy" is not going to do a dang thing. You will lose the debate and seriously miff your winning opponent.

Said kindly and with great empathy for the common good.

patriciae

I haven't read most of this thread (what I consider the irrelevant part), but I would like to say that in California, and perhaps especially Los Angeles and Palm Springs, gender rules are less in play than some other places. I don't think anyone here expects a doctor to be male or a nurse to be female, and I have especially noticed a more even mix at the UCLA hospitals and clinics.

In San Francisco, when I lived there, I noticed that gender roles were often reversed, and so it was common for landscapers and carpenters to be female, while interior designers tended to be male. I mention this because in the Canadian renovation shows that I watch, the carpenters tend to be male and the interior designers are almost always women. There is one show from Newfoundland (I think - maybe PEI) where this is not the case, and the construction workers (except for one) are all women.

My sister had a difficult time in her career as a female lawyer in Texas, and it was worse when she took a job as a law professor at University of Arkansas in Fayetteville. She only lasted there a couple of years before she got tired of the prejudice and discrimination.

“I mentioned my dental hygienist, referred to him as he, and everyone seemed surprised that I had a male dental hygienist.”

@roxsol - That got me thinking, I don’t think I’ve ever come across a male hygienist. Male assistants in my endodontist’s office, yes, but hygienist, no. I looked it up and the stat I'm seeing is the field being about 5% male. 12%, for nurses. So even today, it's not without reason that someone might be likely to expect a female in these roles.

This all got me thinking, where do we draw the line? If we’re trying to tell story, is it any different when there’s no ”expected” gender? Would it raise an eyebrow to talk about going to lunch with a guy at work rather than a non-specific ”colleague”? Is it ok to say that a 90-year-old grandmother got struck by a bus or should we simply report it as a pedestrian? Is there harm in adding detail to help paint a picture?

As I said way near the top, the comment that prompted this thread did jump out at me. But are we being too sensitive? Where do we stop? Erase Jackie Robinson from the Pentagon's website because "they're just a person"?

Food, I'm one who likes detail when a story is related. “ A tall asian man walked into the office…..” As you say, it helps paint a picture.

Yet many here would disagree and feel it unnecessary to the overall story.

We can agree to disagree.

eld, another one here who likes to hear detail, especially when a story is being told.

When I’m looking to hire someone for a job, or perform a service, credentials are good enough, I don’t need any more other than they are qualified for the job.

My daughter has her own business, was one of only two females in a class of 25. She could tell some funny/annoying stories on this topic. 🤠

But, if I’m just chatting with friends, I love details. Male, female, age, quirks, looks etc.

eta If I ever get hit by a bus, I have wondered whether I would be described as middle aged or elderly in the news report. I’ve given my husband the photo I would like the newspaper to use.

But, if I’m just chatting with friends, I love details. Male, female, age, quirks, looks etc.

This! The post (I think this goes back to) was telling a story. When we set the scene in retelling details are added to draw the reader/listener into the scene. I don't understand why so many have to be triggered by standard adjectives, pronouns and descriptive terms. I find it silly, but to each his/her own.

" I'm one who likes detail when a story is related. “ A tall asian man walked into the office… "

Bad cops who practice racial profiling in making traffic stops and harassing innocent citizens, and bigots who discriminate against some types, like specific kinds of detail too.

Some details are important at times. Other times, such personal details are irrelevant. Sometimes people want to "paint the picture" with details because of having voyeuristic inclinations or out of control imaginations.

This is the 21st century and we live in a diverse society, more some places than others. Details that only serve to fuel prurient interests or nosiness are potentially hurtful. Or can reflect VERY poorly on the speaker when the intent is not clear for the expansive descriptions. Best avoided, it doesn't matter who's listening unless one belongs to a peer group of bigots, sexists or racists and that's who the comments deliberately or by inuendo are tailored for.

I don't think it's old people. I'm "old"

Aren't there more of us than there are of them? That is, aren't there more young and middle-aged people than there are old people? That is not the point. It's not okay. I don't understand why we have to keep overcoming things. Color of your skin. Genders. Just stop it already. It's really not necessary. People who want to do that just want to be better than somebody. You're not better. We are all different for some reason, and those who want to see the differences don't want unity. It will always exist. I mourn the passing of anybody, but there will never be enough of them who pass away, leaving enough of the others, to overcome this mentality. Unfortunately, it is a fact of life. Because they always make it a fact of life. People have always been people, but there are always those who want to be different and better. We're all different. Those who want to see it, will always see it. Heaven forbid they hold hands and be equals with anybody. No such thing as fellow human being.

Heaven forbid anybody else raise anybody else up. Anybody celebrate anybody else for being different! Let's stomp everybody else into the ground for being "different" (Mother Teresa, Corrie Ten Boom, Temple Grandin... I can go on about different people. Different is actually good!)

I don’t know, Rob, I’m reading that as you simultaneously want us to be blind to our differences and celebrate them. I suspect the reason for that is because you realize not all differentiation is negative differentiation. If I tell of a woman who was helpful to me at the store, does your knee jerk wondering why I felt the need to describe her as a woman in the same way it might if I describe the unruly group of black kids at the restaurant?

Arcy, and others - To clarify, my point is that I see references (written and spoken) to "Male Nurse" or "Female Doctor". Why use the gender? A nurse is a nurse, and a doctor is a doctor. Correct - one wouldn't say "Female Nurse" or "Male Doctor". That's my point. Time to normalize this.

I think the point is no one says male truck driver or male boxer or male equipment operator or male surgeon or male lawyer or male police officer or male CEO or male scuba diver and on and on. People do say male elementary school teacher or male day care operator or male nanny or male house cleaner and so on.

I very much recall my first nurse who was male. His job was a very intimate one and I sort of blinked, reminded myself men have women doing this sort of thing all the time and made an appropriate adjustment.

2973, do you live in an urban/suburban setting of reasonably educated people with modern ideas? I'm not sure what you're describing are necessarily everyone's experiences.

"People don't say" many things where I am that you think are the same everywhere and different in your experience.

My experience is that gender and other differentiating labels that can be used about people but are not of significance to the context of what's being said, are not used.

>> "If I tell of a woman who was helpful to me at the store, does your knee jerk wondering why I felt the need to describe her as a woman in the same way it might if I describe the unruly group of black kids at the restaurant?"

This is simple, as far as I'm concerned. Here's how I see it: "A very nice woman was helpful to me" and "A group of kids was unruly at the restaurant".

HUGE difference. Why identify the race of the kids. Would you have said "A very nice white woman was helpful ...."? Hopefully not. She's a woman, and the kids are kids.

Is this really so difficult to comprehend?

Rob333, I've read your post a few times and I am sorry but I don't understand your position. Are you saying that those (such as I) who think we should stop trying to improve the way we refer to people are thinking that we're superior to others?

>> "I don't understand why we have to keep overcoming things. Color of your skin. Genders. Just stop it already. It's really not necessary. People who want to do that just want to be better than somebody." And the rest of your post.

Please clarify your post, if you have a minute. I honestly want to understand.

Suzique, I think people just say what they observe. Nothing is meant by it, hopefully.

I think young people get a bad rap. Why would it need to be pointed out that they were kids? Why not ”Some people were unruly at the restaurant” ?

I know that’s getting ridiculous, but I think most people just relate what happened and nothing is meant by it.

One example of an old convention: My late MIL was 'of an earlier generation', even older than some of the people mentioned here as currently having old fashioned ideas about genders in the medical field.

MIL was an RN. Not only were there no female MDs in her working days, but the (male) doctor existed on a pedestal. What I found surprising was that his wife was also awe-worthy. MIL would introduce me to "Dr. Smith" and "Mrs. Doctor Smith".

Medical science is one reason that it is taking longer for outdated ideas to die out. I was at our hospital last week. It struck me that most of the patients -- and many of the staff -- would have been long dead as few as thirty years ago. (This includes me.)

Related: Is there another place where you will see more overweight and obese individuals than at a hospital?

Similar in a way but also different-

My mother, born in the late 19-teens was an RN. When I came into the world and our family grew and grew up, nearly all physicians who treated us, those of various specialties including the doc who delivered me, were "friends" of hers. Docs she got to know because they had done internships and residencies at the large hospital she worked at.

She called them by their first names but insisted that I should always refer and speak to medical docs, dentists, etc. using their title Doctor. To pay respect to the years of study and hard work they'd gone through to achieve their professional posts.

To this day, I still do that and have trouble not doing that. One of my kids' in-laws has that title and it wasn't until about 5 years of knowing them and their protestations about my formality in addressing them that I could revert to using their first name.

@chisue your comment struck a chord with me ”Is there another place where you will see more overweight and obese individuals than at a hospital? I just had an ER vist that resulted in a 3 day, 2 night hospital stay. One of the first words my treating surgeon said to me while examining me was ”oh, you’re so thin…” I am slim & low BMI I know but I was startled at the comment. He was height weight appropriate but on slim side IMO. I had time to ponder his remark while assessing the variety of caregivers parading through my room to check me. Over 50% seemed to be in the overweight to obese range. I wondered about that situation given that working in health care certainly puts the importance of healthy weight front & center.

Elmer why do you feel you are at liberty to post speculation about Rob’s child? It is highly inappropriate and uncalled for. Rob can answer how or if she chooses to Suzieque’s question; you have got your nose way up ito someone else’s business that is none if yours. Who do you think you are?

I flagged the post where he called women here "dunderheads."

Definition of "dunderhead" -

"A person who's not so smart might be called a dunderhead. Dunderhead is a more colorful way to say "dummy" or "stupid." It's derogatory."

So Elmer, keep calling people names and I for one will flag your posts. You'll see your time spent crafting an insult to be for nothing. Maybe you'll learn that to get along, you can't insult and call people names.

I think I'm trying to say the opposite of what you think I'm saying. I think I just have a short fuse for it.

If you're going to compliment somebody for being a doctor, compliment them for being a doctor. It takes a lot of work and dedication. It's not any less work for a male than it is a female or vice versa. Why does anyone feel the need to qualify female doctor? Women and men both have one head two arms and two legs, most of the time. I don't think doctor requires any special thing other than the talent for it. It is special to be a doctor, but it doesn't take more for a male or a female, or it shouldn't. Does that make sense?

(On a different note: I'm reminded of "you look good for your age". Who cares what age someone is if they just look good? Does everyone else look terrible at a certain age? It's just ridiculous. It's like you have overcome something that you didn't need to overcome. It's like telling somebody that's young you sure are smart for your age. You're smart or you aren't. You're pretty or you aren't. I'm not sure you need to compliment either one, but people tend to.)

I think I'm upset about the fact that people still have to overcome things, that we're complimenting them for. That may be getting closer to what I'm trying to say.

Regards to the now-deleted post, I was immediately struck by the reference "embarked on" as if it's akin to departing on a world-cruise vacation.

To embark is often used for the same meaning as to begin.

You posted about my child? Why would you want to do that?

I don't see a post, but it sounds like you tried to weaponize that information against me? Sounds lower than low???

"Regards to the now-deleted post, I was immediately struck by the reference "embarked on" as if it's akin to departing on a world-cruise vacation."

The language didn't even matter to me. The violation of someone else's privacy and the NERVE it takes to answer for someone else, speculating about someone else's child is just beyond the pale...lower than low is right.

I agree, Rob. It was a very unsophisticated thing for someone to do. I’m sorry it happened.

I can only piece together what was said. But thank you for everyone who is standing up. I appreciate the kind thoughts.

You posted about my child?

Yes, he did Rob. Quite a large paragraph. When called out by Olychick, he went back and edited his post.

"I deleted comments that could offend." He had no business posting comments about your child in the first place and acknowledged what he wrote could offend, or he wouldn't have said he deleted comments that could offend.

Observed the physicians age may play a role; younger female physicians seem to be more often mistaken for nurses, than those 50+ years old.

I think this thought process bothers me because I've been mainsplained to my whole career. I have, for better or worse, worked in male dominated industries (maybe I've blazed a trail? Maybe it's caused me to eye men with greater suspicion. Who can guess). Does this make sense why I am tired of having to overcome? Why can't my male counterpart at work, who has also risen the ranks, have been a secretary? And he was. He wasn't a male secretary. He was a dude doing a job.

It has nothing to do with kiddo, my adult child, who was born male, but identifies as both male and female (guess what!? they have low testosterone. So maybe it's a genetic thing). Since someone decided to clarify my comments while I was away at work.

What a disappointing display of vile animus, using an excuse of something unrelated to pounce. I have some similar thoughts in return but have more class and self-respect preventing my expressing them.

The classy thing to do is to apologise to Rob, and admit that you spoke out of turn.

You can stop, it's over. The thin excuse was outed.

He'll never apologize, it's something people like him can never do, and if he did it would be a lie . I see he fired up his fake cut and paste doctor account with the 555 number, that only he claims is a doctor.

The instigator is now telling people to stop, how rich as if he has total charge with ultimate authority. Only in the mind of a ..........! He has no class,

I’ve been thinking about the doctors that I have had over the years, and there really aren’t that many. My husband and I had the same GP for over thirty years, a female. When she retired, we were referred to a young male doctor. We’ve had him for about ten years. A male doctor handled my prenatal care and delivery of two babies. My husband had cataract surgery a few years ago. The surgery was performed by a female doctor. I’ve always referred to our doctors as Dr.

Until this thread, I’ve never given it much thought whether they were male or female.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't be shocked and complain of 'vile animus' while at the same time calling others dunderheads.

As so often happens, I'm amazed and confounded by the twists and turns a thread can take.

I did try to get it back on track. I really didn't succeed.

I think I can say it succinctly now!!!

• Using different as a tool to separate the world isn't good.
• Celebrating someone who is different is good.
• Celebrating that someone can do their job, despite being different, isn't helpful.

"What a disappointing display of vile animus, using an excuse of something unrelated to pounce. I have some similar thoughts in return but have more class and self-respect preventing my expressing them."

Anyone remember the great Paul McCartney song ”Let It Be”? That is going through my head after reading /following this thread. Please dear KT friends, do let it be. There are no winners here and there is no satisfaction to be had by having the last word.

Agreed, PNW. How sad.

Rob333, your summary is yours, and that's fine. It's not mine. All I hope for is that someday we won't use qualifiers and descriptors unless they're important to the story.

To give a very brief summary for my original post, using one example, perhaps it'll be "I had such a nice nurse. He took good care of me".

And so on. That's it for me on this thread. If any of you notice that this thread is gone in awhile, it'll be because I will have deleted it. It was never intended to become nasty. "Can't we all just get along?".

"The difference is the vengeance motive and contrived excuse. Enough, eh?" Good gosh. You really are a horrible wordsmith attempting to look intelligent but you only write for yourself and no one else. The results are the complete opposite when you write making you look like a numbskull. Numbskull was what my Dad used when he wanted to call us stupid, I didn't like it much and would of preferred him just calling us stupid.
Overusing complex words trying to express a thought does make a person look stupid, and I'm not making this up. Experiments have been conducted by ivy league universities taking the same essays written in simple words and another copy in complex words then submitted to educators for opinions. They overwhelmingly assumed the authors of the complex essays were doltish and dunderheads. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.

@Suzieque it is unfortunate that so many threads take this turn. There is a common denominator. I will admit my part, but sometimes the blatant abusive behavior has to be called out. I worked for many years in the domestic violence field and the patterns and tactics of emotional and verbal abuse are familiar, as is the sexism. So is the response of many...let's not make waves, just play nice. The only way that works is if there is no abuse in the first place. And if no one calls it out, it is tacit approval of the behavior.

If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.

I just wanted to thank you for a fond memory. My father was a M.D., a PhD, a professor of biochemistry, and when I was a little tot and curious about science, that is what he would say to me as he explained all sorts of research and scientific concepts in a simple, understandable manner. He was also a wonderful, modest man, and I never heard him once refer to his educational qualifications in order to prove a point. I miss him.

In their quest to be accepted as 'normal', minorities risk becoming further-alienating, the visible targets of the same people who don't want to revise their 'standards'.

I have a ways to go before I don't register an individual's skin color and am not startled to see two people of the same gender share a romantic kiss. I *know* better, but I'm revising 80+ years of 'noticing'.

“I have a ways to go before I don't register an individual's skin color…”

That’s not something I aspire to. Being observant is not a fault to apologize for. It’s what we do with our observations that can lead us down unfortunate paths.

Great summary food ❣️ I hope you leave it Suzie