Seeing weights for liquids is weird. "2 cups plus 3 tablespoons (500g) water"

A litre of water weighs a kilogram. So that measure would be written in a European recipe as 500 ml or half a litre. I have French recipes which use decilitres. But it's always a volume, not a weight for liquids. If you use a weight you have the unnecessary extra step of weighing your container first.

"I’d imagine floral’s 10% overage on flour affects a recipe, even if she’s content with the result and the results are consistent"

Obviously, if I use 500gr of flour I use 250gr of flour. There's no 10% difference in the flour amount. The proportions are identical to using a pound of flour and half a pound of fat.

“Obviously, if I use 500gr of flour I use 250gr of [fat].”

Ah, yes, that should have been obvious. Sorry.

“If you use a weight you have the unnecessary extra step of weighing your container first.”

I think we mostly use digital scales so the "step" is simply to hit the tare button. No different than dry ingredients.

I was about to say the above and just read it. No real extra step to tare the scale, one turns on the scale before adding the ingredients to the container, instead of doing so after.

When speaking of liquids, don't metric recipes refer to volume not weight? There's no conversion, measuring cups/pitchers have liter fraction tick marks on the side. No matter what the weight is.

The pedantic part of my brain wants me to say that metric "grams" are not a measure of weight, they're a measure of mass. Weight is different.

"When speaking of liquids, don't metric recipes refer to volume not weight?"

Of course they do. And that's exactly what I said.

How would you accurately measure the 85ml of water called for in the SE recipe that started this conversation? My Pyrex doesn't have a good mark for that. Perhaps a European kitchen would be better equipped for that. Commercial recipes would have baker’s percentages which are based on weight.

Re weight vs mass, yes grams are a unit of mass which on Earth we can get an extremely good approximation of by measuring the effect of gravity with a spring or digital scale. This is weight. If you use a balance scale, mass would be more correct.

" Perhaps a European kitchen would be better equipped for that. "

The metric system is used worldwide, except in the US, Liberia, and Myanmar. With that company, our stupidity has to be apparent to anyone.

Here's a tool, nothing out of the ordinary:

Do you think most US kitchens have that? I’ve not come across one often.

Tell you what, this was a fun thread so let’s return it to that. We’ll all continue to bake as we bake, or not.

Funny you should ask. I don't know what "most US kitchens have" but I know what I have. The image above was a capture from a webpage but here's a photo I just took in my kitchen. It's made by Anchor Hocking:

Edit to add - my (what I think is regional) Safeway chain store carries them. $3.29. Its larger traditional 2 cup measuring cups have milliliter hash marks along with cups and ounces

Baking recipes, especially for bread, often cite water by weight. This is because ratios are often used. For instance, a common measurement for sourdough starter is 100% hydration. That is, you have the same weight of water and flour. I prefer my white flour starter to be more of a paste than a liquid, so I do 70% hydration, which is easily measured as 50g flour to 35g water. Of course one could restate it as ml, but while one is using the scale it's a step easier just to weigh the water, and the ratio is more transparent. Then, the preferment is often 100% hydration, though the rest of the loaf might be 66% or any other number. Expressing the recipe in ratios makes scaling (larger or smaller batch) very easy. Of course, with significant altitude, volume is a more accurate measure of water. My scale has an option to weigh ml, but that seems silly to me. :)

I've had one of those measuring beakers. All the different scales are great, but painted on like that isn't particularly accurate and they came off on my hand on the second or third use. Most American measuring jugs do have both ounces and milliliters, and some are quite accurate without the markings coming off.

pilog, truth be told, I use that little beaker mostly on the rare occasions when I want to pour bleach into the small compartment of my washer. My pouring isn't very steady, even with a small bleach bottle, so I put the beaker into the sink and pour away. Years of doing that and having bleach trickle down the sides have not erased the color in the hash marks, as my photo shows.

As with floral's reminder, the thoughtful symmetry of the metric system equates the measurement of water in grams with its fluid amount in ml. (Also 1ml =1cc). So whether you portion it out in cl using a marked vessel or weigh it, the answer is the same, plus or minus the slight variability of accuracy with measuring the volume of the fluid. I can't imagine the variability of a sight reading can have that much difference unless it's very small amounts.

@plllog - The only benefit I see to that button is when measuring ounces. When you prefer 20oz rather than 1 pound 4 ounces, or vice versa. But to call it ml is misleading, since to be dead accurate you need conversion charts if measuring something dissimilar in specific gravity to water.

30 years old. The markings are clear. If they wear off the problem is with the jug, not the method. Before we went metric we used imperial weights for dry ingredients, not cups or other volumes. This is a recipe for hot water crust pastry. The book is from 1945.

Interesting, floral. You (formerly) had 20 oz pints. Ours are 16oz. I noticed because here, 1 liter is greater than a quart (two pints) and for you, it's less than 2 pints.

Edit to add - When I order "a pint of bitter please" in a pub, how many ounces is the standard measure in a pub?

I would imagine it's 20fl. oz. But nobody uses fluid ounces any more. The pub pint and milk are the few remaining uses of imperial measures here.

Bleach is a base. I think my hands were covered with citrus, perhaps key lime, which is very acidic, when the numbers came off.

Yes, of course, the problem is with the jug. I use fluid measures for many things, including old fashioned baking recipes.

I didn't communicate clearly enough about weighing the water. My scale will do grams, milliliters, pounds and ounces and fluid ounces (one assumes of water for the fluids). I think both fluid units by weight are silly--either weigh with a scale or measure volume with a measuring cup/jug. It is true that at sea level, one ml = one g of water. Expressing both the flour and water in the same units is just more transparent, more obvious, and weighing while one is using the scale is just convenient. If you'd rather measure the water by volume, there's nothing wrong with doing it by volume.

Another one of my favorite pies is strawberry-rhubarb. I grow old-fashioned ”Victoria” rhubarb…it’s a fairly green rhubarb, but the strawberries mask the color and help the pie look appealingly red. Victoria, however, doesn’t look as good in a rhubarb custard pie - looks too mich like celery! Here’s one of my strawberry-rhubarb pies from a few years ago. I use pulverized Minute Tapioca as a thickener.

Beautiful, lovemycorgi! I have very fond memories of my grandmother’s strawberry/rhubarb pie. A previous neighbor used to supply me with his rhubarb. I sure miss that.

" Bleach is a base. "

Yeah, of course it is. But alkaline substances are equally adept at removing/etching off/dissolving other chemicals applied to a surface as an acid is and sometimes more so. Some work on some things, some work on others.

Examples of alkaline (means the same as base) chemicals used for cleaning include soaps and detergents. wallpaper removers and paint removers.. bleach. and on and on.

I just meant I had the issue with acid and bleach, which you've used yours for, is the opposite.

i've just started making improvisational pies this year, though I have a few T&T crust recipes that I don't mess with much. Add spices maybe, or omit sugar usually, but rely on them. They work, they roll, and people eat them. But the fillings? I'm starting to get adventurous, and people like them! Of course, chocolate is an easy sell. My chocolate crust pumpkin pie with chocolate drizzle and mini chips is a favorite.

Do any of you make up your own pie recipes?

FOAS, both of those look good, the hand pies AND the tamale type pie. The hand pie kind of reminds me of my own Upper Pensinsula pastie, a staple here.

lovemycorgi, I have that green Victoria rhubarb too and you are right, it looks much like celery. It sure makes a good pie, though. I also grow strawberries and my stepson loves strawberry-rhubarb pie but I prefer my Aunt's rhubarb custard. Other than pie and jam and occasional compote, I struggle to find something to do with all the rhubarb my plants produce, it doesn't seem popular with the neighbors so I have trouble even giving it away.

I like pretty much all of the pies, from fruit to custard to savory types. I know Lars was a pastry chef for some time in his past, so I'd take one of his pies happily!

Annie

Thanks Annie! The tamale looking thing was supposed to be shepherd’s pie. Proportions seemed off but quite edible.

LMC - That rhubarb pie picture is testing my Lent resolve!

Plllog - Offhand the closest I‘ve come to improvising a sweet pie was adding some heat to apple pie in the form of candied jalapeno and a pinch of cayenne. Highly recommend!

lovemycorgi, we lived in southeast Michigan (Farmington Hills) when I was a kid. I recall my mom making rhubarb sauce from rhubarb that grew wild in a field behind our house. There was also a patch of asparagus, but my siblings and I gave it a thumbs down. Would love to have it now!

Nothing to do with pies, but I found this recipe when the neighbor I mentioned would share his rhubarb. It’s really good with grilled pork or chicken

Rhubarb and Dried Cherry Chutney

Makes 1 cup

1 cup medium-diced fresh rhubarb
1/2 cup small-diced onion
1/4 cup coarsely chopped dried cherries (or cranberries)
1/4 cup granulated sugar
1/4 cup sherry wine vinegar (see Note below)
1 T. honey
1/2 tsp. finely grated lemon zest
1/4 tsp. kosher salt

Combine all ingredients in small saucepan. Bring to a boil over medium-high heat, cover, and simmer over medium to medium-low heat until onions are mostly translucent and juices are beginning to thicken, about 5 minutes. Uncover and simmer, stirring frequently with a heatproof spatula, until very thick, another 6-8 minutes. Let cool completely in the pan before storing in an airtight container in the refrigerator for up to 2 weeks.

Note: For the vinegar, I got the urge to use half sherry wine vinegar and half raspberry vinegar...delish!

I make chutney and jam from our rhubarb. Also crumble which I actually prefer to pie. We also eat it as a simple baked or stewed compôte with yoghurt or vanilla ice cream. Orange is a good flavour to add too.

One of my friends makes rhubarb jelly. I had never heard of or seen it before. It is the most lovely very pale pink with a delicate flavor. One of my favorite things. She uses the redder rhubarb, but told me she used to have the more green variety and would add enough strawberry juice to make it pink.

I once again found myself with some leftover shredded beef (I keep frozen packets for quick meals) and decided to try the BBC hot water crust recipe floral originally posted. This was a much softer dough than the KA recipe, meant to be pressed into a pan rather than rolled out. So I hand-formed the hand pies, and will say I prefer this recipe as the crust was more tender. Next time, more salt though.

On my first date with DH we made a strawberry and rhubarb pie. He never had one before. (His mother didn't make pies, too difficult she said.) He loved it! From that moment on I knew he was a keeper. For 48 years we have kept it going.

Congratulations on 48 years, caflowerluver, that's a milestone to be celebrated for sure!

FOAS, now I'm going to have to try that hot water pastry, those little pies look amazing and the crust looks nicely crunchy/flaky. Maybe over the weekend, tonight I'm making Mexican for Elery so we should have something I like next, right? As for the pies, I thought that topping looked a bit pale for cornbread, but there is white cornmeal, LOL.

Thanks for that recipe, chloebud, it does sound like it would be good on a sandwich with smoked pork or served as a sauce with roasted chicken.

OK, enough fiddling around, I have Queso Fundido to make, I even found Chihuahua cheese and it's on the cover of my latest Cook's Country. Elery has been craving it since the magazine landed in the mailbox, LOL.

Annie

Thanks Annie 1992. We still make pies together.

Well that makes me smile, 48 years of making pies. Some things just work, I guess.

Annie

I think we mostly use hot water crust pastry for pies that are eaten cold, like pork pies and game pies. Feast your eyes on these. My Mum was the queen of pies like these.

https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-sonymobile&sca_esv=ccc5ad72962ac866&sxsrf=AHTn8zre-0PgXnICb9JSoa_DjkLSUH0jDQ:1742822795817&q=hot+water+crust+pastry&udm=2&fbs=ABzOT_BnMAgCWdhr5zilP5f1cnRvMsomZ_9XhLybcntI1Eur2VlQezioZryC8L5oB7N08j-JdrCPUZ90EKuDcs-5dMr-CSU51JcaPY1LW6TIZeG1Mk3sKh7PhfgOYoExBjkRyDtqahA3pxQ9e8FNKC0JD5hJar41SAMBVfrRLIJo90cXTb4FbWKKBBVuX1HGxwAEr5f8aphx9L-vonnoERbHJJPloNrCew&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiUx5rt6KKMAxWmSKQEHaZYJ1gQtKgLegQIDRAB&biw=411&bih=832&dpr=2.63

Wow! Beautiful! I had no idea they were eaten cold, either. What cousins we do have are served warm.

I also am surprised that they are eaten cold, I wouldn't have thought of that. Fruit pies and such are often eaten cold, though, so I don't know why meat pies wouldn't be.

Annie

The pork pie is a classic picnic food. Delicious and easy to hold. It is filled densely with seasoned meat and a set savoury jelly so although it's moist it isn't runny. DH decided to put one in the oven once. Bad move.

Cold or just not warm? I just checked a good handful of meat pies from Islays link, and most but not all call for room temp.

I’m not sure why a meat pie eaten not hot would be (in theory) much different than eating a cold roast beef or meatloaf sandwich.

Well they're not served ice cold but neither are they served warm. And although eaten at room temperature they are kept in the fridge until just before the meal.

So, I felt compelled to make a hot water crust pie today after all this discussion. Filled it with leftover roast chicken, a bit of chorizo, spring onion and some chopped prunes. Eaten cold.

Oh Flora that looks wonderful!

Wow, floral, that’s really NICE!!!

Looks yummy! I would love to try one someday.

Looks and sounds good! Was there a binder?

You just cram it full. You can also pour a liquid savoury jelly in the hole in the top after the pie is cold. My filling was a little loose because I didn't have sufficient time for the jelly to set completely before dinner.

Just to say that cold pies aren't saucy! They're firm with jelly. Saucy/ gravy meat pies are served hot.

Exactly.

The odd thing is meat pie didnt make the transatlantic crossing. They are very good.

There used to be a tradition of enormous meat pies that would be layered in different sorts of meats. They were served by removing the top crust and scooping out the meat inside. The exterior which was usually highly decorated wasnt necessarily eaten. It had to be so thick it was more or less a disposable dish. I found that fascinating. I have read you can take classes on how to do it.

patriciae

That's a mediterranean thing, according to the website I found, not British thing. We eat our pastry LOL. I'd never heard of no-eat pastry before. Crazy!

https://www.greekgoesketo.com/the-real-meat-pie/

You have to go back to the 1600's more or less. Rich people food. You can take classes from Ivan Days.

The crust was not thrown away. It was fed to pigs or prehaps given to the poor. It was very thick. I am sure teenaged boys would eat it if given a chance

patriciae

I remember reading about those pies. I just hadn't realized that their many times removed offspring were still around until Floral posted her pictures. I also had no clue that they were served at ambient, but it makes sense given that the old larder might have been a bit cooler than the kitchen proper, but nowhere near icebox cold, let alone refrigeration.

Speculation: I know more about pioneer food than pre-industrial urban, and not a huge amount at that, but I can inagine conserving grain was a big deal. Lots of stories about a buck (stag) being plenty for the winter, and also stories of genius ways to keep vermin out of the grain, keep it dry and mold free, and losing it all to misadventure. That may even be the popularity of the pot pie. The reusable container with minimal pastry cover (to be eaten by people!), and turning scraps and leftovers into something craveable.