@porkchop_z5b_MI I looked up what no fault is exactly to better understand how that works. Wow - what a sticky wicket this auto insurance business is. WA is a ”comparative fault” state. MI is one of 12 no fault states. From my fast read I can’t tell which is better for the consumer. My thought is that once claims are filed for medical coverage for injuries against any auto insurance due to accident, things might get messy with one’s health insurance arguing over who pays those claims for coverage. I bet the health insurance would become a secondary coverage or would be going after the injured person to recover auto insurance medical coverage paid. Don’t know quite how that works but pretty sure a person can’t have the same medical bills paid by two different insurance companies. Drive very carefully & defensively everyone!

Lars, just because State Farm isn't wring insurance doesn't mean a thing. Find a broker, who handles many different companies, not a captive agent.

Article in the WSJ (gift link) on this very topic: https://www.wsj.com/finance/homeowners-insurance-rates-disasters-4f3e826d?st=3aCN1p&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

"From my fast read I can’t tell which is better for the consumer."

There's pros and cons. I mean, if you get into an accident and you have your own coverage, it's paid for (minus deductible), you don't have to worry about it -- what would you do if it was an at-fault state and there were damages (auto or bodily) and the at-fault person didn't have insurance (which a lot of people don't). I actually don't know how that works, MI has been a no-fault state my entire life. If other person at fault, you can get the deductible back from their insurance -- if they have insurance. No clue how medical works in at-fault states. I'm insured to the max with medical, unlimited coverage. Yes I pay more but the peace of mind is worth it, especially since I drive a lot.

Lars, my previous home was on the river and not insurable. When I decided to sell it, I was concerned with all the strangers wandering thru the place so I picked up a liability policy from Llyodds of London. I can’t remember the price then but I considered it cheap.

Living in Florida, I feel your pain with insurance. It is up $170 per month this year, same as last year. We are considering going bare if it keeps up. There is no competition, minimal regulation and excessive insurance industry executive pay with zero caps. It will only get worse until? Who will stop the greed? When the cost of materials increased after covid, they eventually came back down. The construction industry is now just pocketing the difference as they never lowered their prices when material prices came back down. I considered downsizing into a new home to help with insurance needs and costs but after some brief shopping I am finding out these expensive new homes are builders grade junk put together by the lowest cost sub-contractors possible. At this point I would rather have an older quality built home.

When we were burgled, I discovered that by agreeing to take a one percent deduction on our homeowners, I'd also taken one percent off what (unlisted) jewelry was covered. My loss was not covered.

I've just heard an interesting thought about protecting equity in your home from a 'slip and fall' kind of lawsuit. IDK if it makes sense, but here's the strategy:

You can make the money you have invested in your home less appetiziing to a personal injury lawyer by taking out a HELOC. This registers a lein against the property. (As you know you never have to actually tap a HELOC.)

Does this hold water?

Umbrella liability policies offer inexpensive protection. Maybe something like a few hundred dollars per year per $1 million of coverage.

Hmmm, this may vary by state or region, but in my case liability under a homeowners policy is an underlying requirement for my umbrella. And it's more than a few hundred per million, but tbat might be due to my personal situation.

People without such basic coverage are being penny-wise and pound-foolish.

@porkchop_z5b_MI Thanks for your reply to my question on no fault & car insurance. Regarding how the medical would work in at fault states, here’s the law for drivers in WA state - with our comparative fault state set up - I copied it from my look up.

Washington State law mandates that drivers have liability insurance coverage with at least the following limits: $25,000 for bodily injury or death of one person in an accident. $50,000 for bodily injury or death of two or more people in an accident. $10,000 for property damage per accident.Oct 3, 2024

Washington State's Car Insurance Requirements

Brumley Law Firmhttps://brumleylawfirm.com › washington-states-car-

So, if I’m in an accident with another driver & it’s determined they’re at majority fault & I have no fault for accident & no fault for my injury due to lack of seat belt, texting or otherwise impaired driving, the other driver is responsible for my medical & car repair costs. If they don’t have at least the minimum liability insurance they are cited & lose license until they provide proof of insurance - which they probably can now only buy through a high risk pool. I, with my full coverage policy, also have uninsured motorist coverage so my policy winds up paying my damage claims under that coverage for both car damage & my bodily injury. My insurance might go after the at fault driver to recover some of what they paid out for my car and medical bills. My health insurance may go after that driver too if my uninsured driver coverage didn’t pay all my medical & my personal health insurance paid some. All very complicated but it’s a fool who drives around with no liability insurance. If one’s car is paid for they aren’t required by any lender to carry comp & collision because no one but the car owner cares if the damaged car isn’t repaired.

ETA: @schoolhouse_gwagain Apologies for going off on liability & car insurance tangent on your post. At least we’re still talking about insurance so in the ballpark!

Yesterday, my insurance renewal bill arrived. My main residence increased $2400! It was already $6K. I called Allstate, they insured me for $4K. And...I get lower deductibles. Higher coverages. The agent is local and really nice! Oh...and...I've NEVER filed a claim on my main residence.

That’s great for you nicole! We’re told often that at least every couple of years we should get comparison quotes for same coverage limits to see if it pays to switch insurance. The challenge with that is the time & effort it takes - it’s the same deal with our cell & internet providers. Most of us want to get it, set it & forget it. When changing insurance or internet & cell providers, sometimes we have to change all our insurance coverage - home & auto or devices to gain the benefits of bundling discounts. Same thing with changing banks for better deposit interest rates on CD’s, money market, savings etc.

Yeah I shopped around a few months ago, first time in decades, and was disappointed that it was only going to save me like $500/year. Considering I’m at like 12K for a home auto umbrella bundle, it hardly seemed worth pulling the trigger. I’ll be shopping for another house shortly, and prelimanary talks had some agents telling me they would only work with me if I move everything over. So we’ll see where we land.

That's shocking. I'd never work with an agent with an attitude like that. Were these independent agents or captive ones (that work for just one insurer)?

@foodonastump - Elmer’s comment made me think about what the agent told you. At first I was agreeing with him but then I wondered if it has something to do with getting an umbrella policy. That sounds kind of familiar. I ”feel like” I remember some discussion about that being a qualifier when we bought an umbrella policy years ago. If a company is going to cover a person for excess liability over & above what their home & auto liability coverage would provide, then they might want to have the underlying liability coverage as well as the excess umbrella liability. Seems like some good reasons for that as separate insurance companies paying out on what’s likely a lawsuit to get the big payout from the insured seems like a logistical nightmare.

Umbrella policies are as they sound, above other coverage. An umbrella could be $1 million of coverage, starting at $500,000 and running to $1,499,999. They would advise primary coverage of $500k but not require it. If a person had primary coverage of $300k and lost a $900k judgement, primary would pay from 0 to $300k, the person would be liable for the $200k gap to $500, and the umbrella carrier would pay the $400k slice from $500 to $900.

As far as the insurance companies go, such situations are simple, everyday events once the amount of liability is determined.

I quite understand how umbrella coverage works. I’m not sure the explanation Elmer gave addresses my question about a requirement of getting the coverage being that the underlying liability coverage be provided by same insurance. Elmer, are you meaning to explain that it wouldn’t / shouldn’t be as the coverage & subsequent liability payouts are straightforward?

Out of curiosity I looked at the dec pages of my umbrella policy. It clearly states the ”required minimum policy limits of underlying insurance” for auto/home/watercraft/personal watercraft/motorcycle & other as well as underinsured motorist. It also clearly states there will be a gap in coverage if one doesn’t carry those minimums. Just as Elmer explained. But, it’s also interesting what my umbrella liability doesn’t cover. For my policy it’s young drivers/additional residence(s)/home business/home day care/swimming pool. I don’t know if this excess liabilility doesn’t cover those things because I don’t have any of them so no insurance for any of those things or because this policy just doesn’t cover those things. My insurance carrier knows what I have since my home & auto insurance is provided by them.

@Lars - I don’t know if any of this about liability insurance is helpful to you but I am curious about what you learn about ability to get liability insurance only with no underlying coverage.

I'm not sure I follow your question.

My umbrella coverage is from a different insurance company than than the primary Insurance I have. It doesn't know my primary carrier or coverage levels but each year reminds me of the consequences of a gap.

I looked at my policy and it’s as Elmer says. There’s a requirement to have certain liability limits with underlying policies, but in the absense of maintaining those I’m on the hook for those amounts. For example, under homeowners I need $300K. If I’m successfully sued for an injury on my propery, I’m responsible for the first $300K and umbrella kicks in above that.

Now, how that would work in practice esp as far as paying for the defense, I don’t know. Prorated reimbursement of legal fees based on judgment amount? I reimburse all if no judgment? Just making it up.

It's a good question, I don't know about legal fees or even how/who would negotiate a settlement. Could the umbrella carrier be in charge and negotiate an outcome that gets them off the hook but sticks others lower on the ladder? Wouldn't seem likely but I don't know.

Elmer, you answered my question with your statement - ”My umbrella coverage is from a different insurance company than the primary Insurance I have.”

You said you wouldn’t work with an agent who wouldn’t sell a homeowner policy to foodonastump unless he also got all his other insurance business. My question was whether it was a requirement to bundle all your underlying liability policies with the same company that provides your excess / umbrella liability coverage. Mine is so I couldn’t answer my own question. From your statement, the answer is no.

Which raises a question similar to mine about who covers the cost of defense.

As for the question/comment about the agent requiring representing my whole insurance package, it’s an independent agent. I don’t know if the plan would be to have everything under one carrier or if they just want to grab the whole book of business because they think they can. Truth is though, if they come in at the best price for good coverage, then indeed they can. My insurance costs are about to get ridiculous because the new house is in a difficult market (beach community) so my choice will be a function of cost, not principle.

We’ll see. I’ve not closed yet so there’s only so much people will talk to me. My only actual quote is from my current agent, and I just about fell down when I got it.

@foodonastump - if your new home isn’t new construction, maybe your realtor can find out which company carries current owner insurance & @ how much it is. Of course, their coverage limits etc would affect price. Are you selling your current home or will this be a second residence? @ 20 years ago we had a rental house & it was really hard to get insurance on it as a rental. I mean a house we owned & rented out. A second residence shouldn’t be so hard to insure but maybe is higher risk because no one there much of time to notice the basement flooded. 🤷‍♀️

Yes, second home for now. That’s one of a few things working against me. I will ask who current owners use but a lot of careiers aren’t writing policies out there right now so you take what you can get.

Yes - it’s all those hurricanes in FL, hailstorms in TX & wild fires on west coast. Won’t be surprised if over time, most of us are forced to buy specific coverage for specific damage events each area is at high risk for. We already do that with flood & earthquake.

First of all, I'm sorry for all of you experiencing such high premiums. I guess I was naive about what others pay "out there", me being in a rural area, etc.

If my premium goes up again next year, I will tell my agent that I'll even join the Mennnonite church if he can somehow keep it as is or lower it. : )

"All very complicated but it’s a fool who drives around with no liability insurance."

I completely agree, but millions of people all across the nation drive without auto insurance.

Just so, @porkchop_z5b_MI . And, that’s why in addition to liability insurance we insure ourselves against those folks with our ”uninsured / underinsured” driver coverage in our auto policies.

@schoolhouse_gwagain No need for you to be sorry - we’re all in the same boat but just on different decks regarding our costs. I think it’s great you raised the question in your post because I bet we’ve all had our eyes opened a bit more to how expensive insurance protection has become & reinforced that it is not just a local or regional problem. It’s been an interesting topic.

KW, autos State Farm., State Farm and the Calif fire pool included on one. Umbrella is AIG. Multiple State Farm policies was my free choice, I could use a different one for each. I'd never use an independent agent.

Elmer, I’m not sure I’d use an independent agent either. I might if I had some hard to insure situation & a captive agent couldn’t take care of it. One of the benefits of using one company for all insurance needs is the discount for multiple policies when that is enough to make a price difference. When I lived in bay area we had AAA & were happy with them. They underwrite in WA but it’s not with the same benefits & obtained via brokers only. After becoming annoyed with Allstate for offering our same coverage for less to new customers only & telling me the only way we’d get that same rate was to cancel & rewrite but then would lose our long time customer discount, we moved to Pemco & have been with them ever since. As I said, they are a regional Mutual insurance for WA & OR. They are well rated & sometimes either hard to get or too expensive if the customer presents too much risk so they’re also conservative. We’ve shopped rates at renewal but no other companies have been lower for us for our same coverage. We’ve had 1 auto claim with the other driver at fault, and 1 homeowner claim, our first ever. Their service for both those claims was excellent. So though our rates have increased as everyone else’s has, we manage it with coverage adjustments as needs change and we’ve no desire to change. I think that might make us one of the fortunate few in the world of insurance.

Independent, captive, direct, I think you can find opinions for and against any one of them. What do you guys have against independent?

My problem is like I said, insurance is getting hard to find. It’s not like you’re going to call State Farm and buy a policy. My current broker, formerly captive Nationwide now they switched to independent, shopped companies I’ve never heard of. Even my primary residence has sn issue that creates problems (yes I should address it) that gets me rejected. How does one navigate all this without either a broker or spending a lot of time and effort?

@foodonastump - I don’t have anything against independent agents at all. It’s only that we didn’t need to use their services. You describe a perfect situation to seek out their services though because independents have more resources & more latitude than captive agents. An independent agent is the only way my sibling has been able to get auto coverage. She lives in state A, is a legal resident of state B where her drivers license is issued & she has license plates on her auto, 5th wheel & small Freightliner truck that pulls the 5th wheel in state C where she is incorporated - not a business though. But, I would challenge anyone to get that kind of auto / truck / RV insurance through a captive agent & one of the usual insurance companies. So, independent agent to the rescue!

I've never encountered an independent agent who dealt mostly with non-business accounts whose pitches suggested anything resembling honesty and competence. Maybe there are some out there. Captives seem to be kept on short leashes and seem to be straighter shooters using little or no doubletalk. When I call, I want info and advice, not BS.

@foodonastump That piece was a really interesting - and eye opening - read. It covered all the bases on the explanation of why our insurance rates are climbing and will continue to climb. For climate change believers (that would be me) it’s another effect of it. Thanks for sharing.

I've never felt that 'our' agent was very bright, but that may be a defensive posture! Owning an agency in our town seems to me to be a passive gold mine, the agent collecting a commission and passing any inquiries on to the home office.

We've had three or four agents over the years, all State Farm. We had one ice dam claim ages ago. I felt the adjuster was competent and informative about our right to collect despite not planning to do the repairs. We were under contract to a buyer planning to tear down and replace with a McMansion. Today, I think you're required to repair.

When DH was T-boned in the middle of our town on a weekend, our agent was 'unavailable' -- calls forwarded to Bloomington -- while their insurer (Chubb) couldn't do enough for us.

An agent sells insurance. The carrier is who handles the claims. Some agents are more knowledgable than others, but ultimately your insurance is with the carrier. As I understand it, advice from the agent is not legally binding. I’d have no issue with the agent referring me to the carrier, or holding reasonable office hours of their choosing.

Agree with you foas. I was thinking that all the agent can do is give a person the number for claims department which is the area that should have 24/7 availability.

RHETORICAL: I can't believe the bank would let anyone do without insurance if there was any lien on the house. Does this mean, those without insurance, have paid off houses? Interesting if the answer is no or yes ;)

@rob333 (zone 7b) That’s not a rhetorical question - it is one that some have. But, I cannot think of any situation where the collateral for a loan & thus a lien placed on said collateral, would not have a requirement of damage coverage through insurance as a condition of said loan. If the borrower fails to provide the proof of required coverage to the lender the result is that insurance will be force placed on the loan by the lender. Borrower is required to pay for cost & so the loan amount & payments increase. The insurance is physical damage only, no liability so it wouldn’t satisfy state requirements where liability coverage is a requirement of having a drivers license. That’s a very messy situation and more common with vehicle loans - or any collateral that’s transportable on something with wheels than it is on homes. A very messy and expensive situation.

To your question - if there’s no lien on the home, purchased insurance is not a requirement. One can self insure. Several in this thread have said their homes are mortgage free - so no liens.

I have liability only coverage on my cars (that are paid for), and I have enough savings to replace immediately, but I don't think I'd every consider liability only coverage for my house. I wouldn't feel comfortable with that, as it's just such a large investment. Ever.

Everyone has their own comfort level though.

Your position is reasonable & one many follow. We carry physical damage on our paid for cars because they still have enough ’blue book’ to be worth repairing if damaged. Most who let their physical damage insurance lapse on property that’s being used as collateral for a loan don’t do it as a conscious choice. Rather, it’s usually personal financial trouble that’s the cause of their inability to pay for the insurance. Often foreclosure and repossion is the next step. The force placing of insurance and adding the cost to the existing loans by banks had come under fire in years past as there were some unfair and unscrupulous practices going on. So, some foreclosures & repossessions happened not because the loan was in arrears but because the collateral wasn’t insured.

We have been mortgage-free for years.

But we have always carried full homeowners insurance, not just liability. There’s no way we would jeopardize the investment in our home by not having insurance! Though we COULD rebuild out-of-our-pocket, we sure wouldn’t want to. We aren’t millionaires.

My house was paid off around 1993 or 94. My father died in 1992, and I was so disappointed that he didn't live to see me pay off the house.

That's shocking. I'd never work with an agent with an attitude like that.

This comment was in reference to my post saying, “I’ll be shopping for another house shortly, and prelimanary talks had some agents telling me they would only work with me if I move everything over.”

Now that I’m actually in the process I’m realizing this is not an agent requirement, it’s from the carrier. An agent just provided a quote from one company, and said another company came in $1400 cheaper but they’d only take me if I transfer everything else over to them.

I’m not necessarily looking to continue this conversation but figured I’d document the correction.

That's probably a captive agent who only deals with one company. A broker will handle many companies and get the best policies for you, regardless of company.

Independent. He quoted me one company, and said another would be cheaper for that property if they got my whole book of business. I haven’t taken steps to get a bundled quote as there are reasons I might not want to do that.

Nicole

Update: I got the bill for renewal and my primary home went up $2400! WOW! I knew what my nextdoor neighbor was paying with Allstate so I called them. The guy was personable, super nice, took all my information giving me price quotes as he went. Just awesome! He said look at my quote online, make sure I have it all right, then call me back.

1) He'd listed my husband as a woman.

2) He'd added a vehicle I no longer owned and NOT listed MY new 2025 truck.

3) He'd listed my smallest rancher home/rental as a two story & it was now the highest priced.

4) He'd added $450 more to insure my main residence because he said I couldn't afford the deductible he'd previously quoted....but I could.

I left a msg on his machine saying I was totally upset...he'd made a MESS of my polices and I couldn't use what he'd written. He left for the day. I called again and a nice woman with a heavy accent answered, said she didn't sell insurance, she was an auditor now, but in THIS case she'd make an exception. She went over everything...took payment...and I saved $4400 on what my primary residence renewal would have cost.

Another encounter with a "low on the intelligence bell curve" insurance agent. As service providers where attention to details REALLY matters, people in the customer facing end of the insurance business too often have trouble dealing with what one would think would be tasks that happens daily.

If this person has trouble giving quotes for new business, how can they manage to have a successful business?

Three quotes from three different brokers, all from the same carrier. Turns out I’m told there‘s now only one carrier writing new policies at my price point in that market, unless I bundle.