Can you help judge iffy growth - I'm not objective about RRD anymore

last month

Hi folks

After losing all my roses to RRD, I find I am more than a little gun shy about ever going there again. I was in the process of planting roses that I overwintered in pots all last year. Three in particular struck me as looking odd in ways that in the past had been a leading edge of RRD. I don't think any of these are necessarily bad enough to pull the plug yet, but among the aberrant, excessive and unusual, this is at least unusual to my eyes.

All three suspect roses are still in pots and show these symptoms to a greater or lesser extent. I took photos of the most gnarly of the bunch, a Forever and Ever Pink from a local nursery. In the past, I got suspicious of "kinky" or wavy canes, multiple leaves growing from one node, and too close inter-nodal distance. In my yard, one or more of these seemed to be leading signs for RRD, though none is conclusive by itself.

Here are some photos:

Too close inter-nodal distance - below the pad of my finger, at much less than a finger's width:

Similarly - two nodes right next to each other on different parts of the cane, below the tip of my finger:

Multiple leaves/sprouts growing out of the same leaf node (hadn't leafed out yet but pattern has continued as I'm watching it):

And kinky canes - I know it can be individually variable by rose, but I don't like the wavy pattern at virtually every leaf node:

I realize I may no longer be able to be objective, so I'm checking with all of you. None of the three are planted yet so on the one hand it wouldn't be devastating to toss them. On the other hand, they've been sitting packed in tightly together with around 120 other roses all winter in kiddie swimming pools all year and through the winter, so who knows what else is affected. Also I really don't want to go through this again, though I reailze we're never done being vigilant. I just didn't want to have to be that ruthless again this soon.

I may well be over-reacting, but I'd rather check than be sorry. Help me out? What do you think?

Thanks

Cynthia

Featured Answer

stillanntn6b

last month

Something more to learn about roses:

when a cane emerges from another cane, there are lots of new buds close to the point of emergence. Often they are so small, you won't notice them. As the cane matures, some of them will just be overgrown by bark. One or two might grow. When you see this happening, you will see the buds not just on the upwards facing side, but all around that base.

Farther out on the cane, the buds are different in their distribution. A single bud has two much smaller backup.s Loose the big one, and a second will grow (unless a spreading canker took the first) Loose the first two, and there is a third. Sometimes two will grow. BUT when RRD takes control of the growth, each of those three may have three more and so on. The worst I ever saw was in the Royal Botanical Garden in Burlington Ontario where a short vigorously growing Floribunda had up two twenty (yes, I counted them) buds breaking from a single site, not just once but all up and down several canes.

On kinky canes, it's more wavy and that's because one side of the cane is growing faster than the other. When first infected the virus moves down rather than around or up.

Also, watch your prickles. Right now they look good in your photos.

Right now, relax, but keep vigilant.

Ann

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Comments (10)

BenT (NorCal 9B Sunset 14)
last month
last modified: last month
I do not see any signs of RRD, I also think your plants are not far enough along to tell. Please post pics a few weeks later if you are still suspicious, but for now I’d say the plant is OK. I can understand your concern, I used to live in city where RRD was rampant, I looked for it every single day.
nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska thanked BenT (NorCal 9B Sunset 14)
nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska
Original Author
last month
Thanks for the feedback Ben - you've been through this so I appreciate the insights. They're another week or two into growth after this so I'll check on the growth and get more photos posted. It seemed like when it was definitely RRD in the fall, that the growth started out gnarly in the spring, got better in the summer then was truly aberrant in the fall.

Still as I say, I'm no longer objective. I appreciate the feedback from you folks!

Cynthia
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I like Michael's first two principals. Until three years ago I would have liked the third, but I lost a huge Tea Noisette and I never saw sick growth up any cane, only coming out from a mature basal cane as if it were a new basal break. I think what happend was a bud axil had a RRD vector mite bite, that went down the very woody stem, and the first non-dormant leaf axil (one of those that were there when the cane first emerged) showed really hideous growth. That growth even spiraled as one side of the cane outgrew the other. Re photos above. I'd watch Belinda's for a while. I think it's ok. But I don't like the edge of that leaf in the last photo. Have you changed ferilizers recently? Something is going on/wrong with the teas in these photos. Background: when a spray of buds happens, the oldest bud blooms first and is easily seen, then the subsequent buds' stems continue to grow and as those buds mature, that first and spent bloom is often hidden by the subsequent blooms. It bothers me that your tea buds are being overgrown on most of these stems almost a week or two BEFORE the oldest bud opens in bloom. That's not supposed to happen. IS there any chance you had a yard crew use some sort of special chemical mix on your yard (or on a neighbor's yard?) Email me..we're going to be in Asheville tomorrow at the western NC Arboreteum for their rose exhibition and DH and I are giving two talks in the afternoon. There are some other things I'd like you to check on this new growth...is there pith? Or can you flatten these red stemswith gentle finger squeezes? Are the buds all there, sexually? (Some RRD sick roses lack major bloom parts.) Ann
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I am so sorry for your massive loss already this year. You are seeing and confirming a lot of the things we've seen here. Where wind hits a wall, and the mites drop out, it's a rough place to be trying to grow roses. "Since the mite most likely moves and infects during hot dry months like July and August, wouldn't any of the RRD I saw this year in May and early June be a result of infection from last year?" The scientific papers that reported on mite populations reported massive populations in Iowa in September. And that is probably still true there. But I think that our spring heat wave which you often share gives an earlier season spike in the mite populations. I think that when the reservoir plants (R. multiflora with RRD and mites) start to feel a pinch in terms of how much water they have, then their mite population disperses. My 2% of my rose garden loss occurred after a ground baking heat wave. I think if your roses had gotten sick last fall, you would have seen the symptoms on growth much earlier this spring, as in March and April. (That's what happened to local gardens here.) I really don't think you missed symptoms; you're already to the place where you are looking past the blooms to what the plant is supposed to be. One friend has saved a climber that had RRD go into the roots, but only to one side of the roots; her husband took a chainsaw to the roots and isolated one side from the other, and dug out the bad side. We've got a sort of save going on right now. Seven Sisters had its second strike (and we only allow one strike now) and DH dug it out last year. Some wide ranging roots were left behind. The first come-back root came back with RRD. So we dug it out. Then six weeks later, some more growth came up and (knock on rose-wood) it's healthy. Then about two feet away , more healthy stems came out of the ground. I know these aren't seedlings. Seven Sisters has a really distinctive leaf when compared to the ten or so other roses on its fenceline. It going to take a while for the new stems to replace the old, but so far, they look good. When you prune, prune to encourage airflow. Are you spraying miticides for spider mites? Can you interplant with some low growing mints?
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Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
last month
last modified: last month
Cynthia, Pillar Extraordinaire of the Roses Forum, how my heart goes out to you. I want to say the right thing that would give you relief, if not freedom from the RRD dilemma you have so bravely faced. What is staring me in the face is that in spite of the valiant irradication you undertook, there is no guarantee that RRD will no rear its ugly head in your garden again.

All you can do is be vigilant, but please train your mind to not obsess... just go gently and relaxed with flow of growing our marvelous love of growing roses. Take it easy, stand back and peacefully let things unfold, good or bad, because along with the good, bad will surely follow.

We are at the front line in the battle against RRD, an enemy so wickedly sly in its destructive behavior to seem almost to become a personal foe. Don't let RRD overwhelm you. Try to detach yourself emotionally from the situation, relax, do what has to be done on a day by day basis and place yourself above the circumstances.

🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹

I think it is too soon to tell if the stems you photographed for us are RRD infected. I would isolate the suspected bushes, give all the roses a regimen of a good miticide, and unwind your thoughts, taking things as they come, going with the flow. There are things beyond our control that we should relax and let God intervene, and see what happens next.

Moses
nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska thanked Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
last month
They look normal to me.
nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska thanked Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
fig_insanity Z7b E TN
last month
last modified: last month
Cynthia, I know you've been through the grinder with RRD, but please, calm down, lol. I don't see anything that on its own points to RRD. IF the incidence of close intenodes were caused by RRD, every internode ABOVE that would also be affected, and yet they seem to be normally spaced. Those multiple sprouts are coming at the base of a twig THAT HAS BEEN PRUNED. Pruning causes dormant buds to sprout. That's one of the main reasons we prune! I could be wrong, and it may be riddled with RRD, but until it shows THREE, INDISPUTABLE symptoms, do not panic. Three.Indisputable.Symptoms. Remember that.

And until it fully leafs out, you're not going to see three, even IF the two things you are worried about truly are symptoms. So grab a cup of tea and a good book, and WAIT.
nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska thanked fig_insanity Z7b E TN
erasmus_gw
last month
They look normal to me but it would be good to keep an eye on them. Cynthia, I have emailed you at the email you gave me and it must not have gone through. You can private message me through GW if needed. I have three plants for you and if I don't hear from you about when to ship, etc., I will have to do something else with them.
nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska thanked erasmus_gw
rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)
last month
Very good topic. You’ve identified an interesting behavioral phenomenon. I was aware of how my own RRD judgements were altered in the weeks and months after my first case a few years ago. I bet many here have been similarly influenced.
nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska thanked rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)
Rosefolly
last month
I agree with the general consensus. They look normal, but keep ane eye on them.
nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska thanked Rosefolly
nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska
Original Author
29 days ago
last modified: 29 days ago
You are all such wonderful, knowledgeable, caring rose friends! Please accept a virtual hug from me for your thoughtful and helpful advice. I'm extra glad that the advice was a positive reaction about not being RRD, but I would have been happy simply to know how to handle this.

What helps me the most is the factual information to help me understand the science of the growth process. I have made a file of BenT's & FigInsanity's wonderfully simple 3 judgments for RRD, but since those are judgments they have natural elements of human error. After a while everything looks abnormal or excessive (or preliminary leading up to excessive), and its hard to get a handle. Rifls - nice to know it's not just me getting lost in judgments. As Ben says, I'll need to check for it every day, but it helps to have a non-human fact metric for what makes a border between OK and not OK in early stages.

Ann, your incredibly clear and informed statements about bud growth and canes were exactly what I needed. I knew that buds could come back from the same node if one was snapped off, but I'd never noticed that multiples could grow at the same time till I started being extra vigilant. Looking for this pattern repeating up the canes would be what's behind the "witch's broom" growth of RRD.

And the kinky canes being that one side is growing faster than the other now makes sense to me. So many of the kinky canes are on robust shrubs that have rapid growth, vs. the long straight growth of HTs that (in my zone) put on gradual growth. Watching prickles and abnormality that moves down rather than up is a good metric to keep an eye on too.

Erasmus, thanks for your insights as someone who has extra reasons to be vigilant about RRD in many kinds of roses. I got your email and responded, with a note about my usual email. We can correspond from there.

John, your reminder to breathe and have a cup of tea (non caffeinated I presume) is very timely. I'm trying to stay ahead of ID of RRD so it never gets away from me again, but you sent very good reminders that I can't be premature. Ah yes, of course pruning promotes growth farther down the cane - remembering the candelabra effect which has to be the multiple canes from a pruned spot. Again, how useful is fact-based reasoning to settle anxiety. Ahhhhhh. huhhhhhh - breathing now...

I appreciate you chiming in with clear and positive judgments Sheila & Rosefolly. Your exquisite skills in rose growing help with years of experience making these kinds of decisions.

And Moses, dear Moses - you are incredibly sweet as always and way too complementary for reality. I'm in and out of this forum way too much to be a pillar, but I'm happy to be a basal cane like everyone else here on GW roses. You give a wonderful testament to balancing faith in ourselves, God's nature, and the process of rose growing, and that's a terrific reminder of what's important. I spent too long previously believing "it looks weird but it'll be OK" for my favorite roses, only to watch gradual and indisputable RRD develop and last for years on Edgar Degas, Savoy Hotel, Jack's Wish, Forever Rose, and all the rest. I've got to find a new balance where that doesn't happen again.

I have no doubt that I removed some roses in the Great RRD Purge of March 2023 that didn't have RRD, and I mentioned that at the time. Grandmother's Hat never showed a smidgen of symptom, but it was near a Grand Central of RRD infections including a huge Madame Alfred Carriere. My dearly beloved Heart 'n' Soul might not have been infected, but it was chafed on all sides by clearly infected (and also dearly beloved) Erfordia and Firebird Citiscape. I just couldn't risk leaving a Typhoid Mary of infection after all the others. All three of those latter roses are on my irreplaceable roses list that I'll post tonight (I promise - I tried a few days ago but Houzz didn't post it).

Again, many many thanks for chiming in so readily and knowledgeably. You are a great treasure in this wonderful rose community.

Cynthia

Can you help judge iffy growth - I'm not objective about RRD anymore

stillanntn6b

Comments (10)

BenT (NorCal 9B Sunset 14)

nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska
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Can you help judge iffy growth - I'm not objective about RRD anymore

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