We both put ourselves through college and grad school. We paid off our student loans and managed to save for a house during our first 3 years of living in California. It always has been expensive to live here. Our first house was 20% down on $100,000 (1981), 5 year pre-penalty fee, mortgage of $80,000, 15% interest. Now it is worth $1,400,000, 1936, 3bd 2 ba, 1200. Sf.

We lived a very frugal lifestyle, no going out to eat except for our anniversary once a year. We brown bagged our lunch. We bought used cars, lucky DH could fix anything. We never hired anyone but always did the work ourselves. We had no entertainment cost because we did not go to the movies or concerts. We bought clothes at the thrift store and furniture too. We waited 7 years before having a child.

I look at my nieces and nephews and it blows my mind. They live such entitled lives. Either they are living at home (late 20s to early 30s) or their parents are paying their rent and car payments. They refuse to work and are taking a break because college was so hard. With one it was 6 years because she kept changing her major and what out of state college to go to. I wish them well but some day it is going hit them like a tidal wave.

Everything is relative. When housing was less expensive, salaries were lower, college was cheaper, we had no Iphones or the need for 20 pairs of shoes. And I had more than my parents did. And they had more than my grandparents, who all took the plunge and got on the boat to go to a place that was far away with only what they could carry. I feel sorry for my daughters who will probably never know what it is like to be a stay-at-home mom (if they ever have kids), own a house, and all the things that I take for granted. They work hard and never complain.

argument for teaching finances in school ...

And teaching it at home…

When we bought our first home houses cost on average 4x the average male wage. They now cost nearly 10x. We bought a wreck straight out of university (which was free) and did it up ourselves. We could get unemployment benefit during university vacations. There are no wrecks left to buy these days and students are burdened with large loans. Teaching finances can't change that. I don't know any youngsters with 20 pairs of shoes. And if I did it would still be a drop in the ocean compared with the price of a house.

We definitely had it easier.

ETA I have just checked... the house we bought for £4,000 in 1978 is now £227,00. Our joint income at the time was about £2000.

This conversation is bringing to mind how my parents did it. When they were getting married, my father's parents bought a farm house outside the city that they rented to my folks to live in when they were first married. It had no indoor plumbing or central heating. My dad and his dad worked together to fix the place up, including digging the basement out from underneath the house by hand so they could install a furnace. After they fixed it up, they managed to save enough to buy a house that I grew up in. Grandparents then sold their house in the city and moved into the other one. This would have been about 1951,

The house my folks bought was way out in the "country" on an unpaved road. It was a small 2 br 1 bath cape. The bath was so small that you could wash your hands while you sat on the pot and touch the tub on your right. My room was the former dr and they added a temporary closet to make it into a weensy bedroom. The closets in the br were so narrow that you couldn't fit hangers straight in, but had to put them sideways. But the house also had a "little house" on the property which my parents used as a rental to help finance their home. Eventually Dad built an addition of 3 br, 1 ba and family room which he did by himself...even digging the foundation by hand. By the time he retired, the rental income was paying all the annual expenses for the property and they bought a winter place in FL. They were able to be snowbirds for 25 years.

I'm thinking the expectations for 1st time home buyers today would be somewhat different.

My 34 year old son said to me yesterday that those starter homes that they and their friends bought over the last 3-4 years are now their longer term houses because they can't afford to buy up to something larger.

My son and his wife bought a house 3 years ago that has 3 bedrooms on the main floor and a 2 bedroom suite downstairs. They have a kid on the way and they both work from home. To make the space work my son has converted the two bedroom suite to a one-bedroom and took over the other bedroom for his office. He got quotes to have the work done by a contractor and the quotes were ridiculous so he consulted you-tube and learned how to open up the staircase that had been closed up, how to frame, how to drywall, and how to carpet stairs. (as an aside when they lifted the carpeting around the staircase they discovered the original 1960's hardwood so after consulting youtube he learned how to expose it all and redo the baseboards.)

And all of our friends (and us) who are in our late 60's/early 70's are still in the family homes with too much space and bedrooms sitting empty. Why? Because we want to stay in our neighbourhoods but nothing is being built that makes sense for us to buy. We don't want to pay close to $1,000,000 + closing costs/taxes for a 800 sq.ft condo.

IIn the early 70's my husband and I bought a modest split level hourse with 1 1/2 baths for $27,000. The mortgage rate was 7.5 and we were happy to get it. We raised two daughters with one full bath and everybody managed to get in their daily shower. I lived there for 35 plus years and finally downsized to a condo with 2 1/2 baths. The irony of it.

There are so many variables here.

What is 'a house'? Home ownership is very high in some of the poorest countries in the world, but the 'house' is likely to be extremely basic. In some places the land is more valuable than the house on it. Would-be buyers can also have some unrealistic ideas about the price of 'perfect', as defined by TV -- or the idea that all real estate appreciates, or how fast -- or the burden of owning, or selling.

'Ownership" -- Free and clear, or it's you and the bank, or there's some kind of subsidy? Bush bragged about high home ownership in the US during his presidency -- just before the unsustainable mortgages his administration promoted came home to roost.

A lot of variables have created the many inequities in the US. Housing is just one.

It is always helpful to google an inflation calculator to get an idea of what money in the past is equivalent to today. Inflation isn't even though as the price of housing is definitely in bubble mode again. I once knew a woman who believed the price of houses never went down which is a strange thing to believe. She thought they would always be a good investment. We have cities full of houses that are empty now due to people not living there any more. Not useful to the unhoused though of course. No jobs. And of course buying now might have you underwater before you know it.

Education is in many ways more expensive for the individual since university subsidies are way down. As a nation we skimp on money to educate our populace. Not a good thing.

I am reading lots of internet articles that seem to want to pit the generations against each other typically chewing on boomers as having been privileged and not wanting to share their wealth. Hmmm. For one thing Boomers are not the parents of these people they are at least grandparents or even great grandparents. The last of the boomers is 1964 making them just shy of 60. The oldest boomers are pushing 80.

" We are already looking for land, as our son wants to live in the country. Being 20..... "

At his age, I hope he's giving a higher priority to plans to prepare himself for an occupation and employment. Living "in the country" can severely limit job options and that can have a much greater impact on quality of life than geography does.

I didn't comment out of curiosity, and I wasn't asking a question or expecting an answer. It was my reaction to what you said. Your comment suggested he may be putting the cart before the horse, that was what I was referring to.

Few at age 20 have seen or done enough in life to make serious decisions that last a lifetime. That's when young adults should be learning, exploring and figuring out through experiences what makes sense for them. When he knows enough and has an idea when he wants, if that involves a place to live, let him do his own looking.

I moved to San Francisco in 1973, and while rents were low at that time, real estate prices definitely were not. I could never have afforded to buy real estate in SF in my 20s without some help, and my family had no intention of helping me as long as I lived in California. The only people I knew in SF who were able to buy real estate had two incomes, and since I was single, I never had that option. I also was having difficulty focusing on career and mainly worked freelance, which meant that sometimes I made a lot of money and sometimes I did not. My work was seasonal, and so when I worked a lot, I saved money for when I could not work, and then I would often travel during those periods, and I am glad that I did. I was often able to sublet when I was traveling, but then rent was not expensive back then.

Once I became focused on having a single career, I went back to university and got another degree in my late 30s. After that, I got a job at a company that I liked and felt that I could grow with, and that did happen, but I started that career at 39. Later, my brother came to live with me (after his divorce), and I helped him get established here, but that took some time, and I had to support him while we were waiting for that to happen. With two decent incomes, we were able to buy our first house here in 2009, during the brief period that real estate became affordable to us. We did not buy in the least expensive neighborhood, but we also did not buy in the most expensive one, although we are close to it.

At the moment, I think real estate is overpriced, and I expect a correction in the near future. We are fortunate, however, that the economy is doing as well as it is right now, and that sort of keeps the prices as high as they are. The real problem is that the population is growing faster than the supply of housing.

My father always lived in the house where he grew up, and he was born in the house that was on that site, although that house was torn down and replaced in 1934, when he was 11. My great grandfather helped my grandfather build the second house, and they owned a huge farm that had been a plantation in the 1850s, started by my GGGF, who bought the land when he sold his estate in Prussia. When his parents had died, he inherited a huge amount of farmland in Prussia, but his sister inherited all of the farm equipment and everything that was portable. My GGGF then decided to rent the land and live off the rent, but when he got married, his FIL demanded that he get a job, and that's when he decided to sell the land and emigrate. His first choice was South Africa, but then he heard that a lot of Germans were moving to Texas, and so he decided to go there instead. Texas was still an independent country when he arrived in 1843.

My German ancestors would only marry wives who were wealthy - at least until my father married my mother, but she had led him to believe that her family had money because her father owned land with an oil well. However, that well did not produce very much, and so my father eventually allowed my mother to go back to work.

Let me give you and example of how things are here, now. Last year the house next to one of my rentals came up for sale. 2/2/0, $258K. It was 900sq feet, move in ready. The driveway lets you park off the street. The Zillow estimate was $329k. They were still offering 4% interest rates. My renters next door to this property NEVER even considered buying it. The male is a mortgage lender for a bank. She also is gainfully employed. They are 35 years old & 38 years old. ??? Here's a mortgage calculator Their rent is $2030/month, for a slightly bigger home with AC & a carport. I think THIS would have been a GREAT deal!

I think I agree the most with Kathsgarden and Annie about stagnant minimum wage and student loans. I think it is becoming harder for young folks. I also think, in general, we place too much emphasis on home ownership as a symbol of success.

Using myself as an example here. I would like to buy a condo by next year and I am doing everything I can to save for it. My only splurge is a pizza once in a while.

My rent is doable for now but it increases every year. I don't buy clothes until mine wear out, food is a luxury so I make stuff that I can eat for several days. I was taught that if you can't afford it save until you can.

Sure some people had it easier back in day but times were different. Many of us struggle to make ends meet. I myself live on $400 a month after paying my rent and utilities. So to those young people who want to buy a house I say good luck. Save what you can and buy what you can afford.

One reason for emphasizing home ownership as it's often the only "savings" a household has. So many households are terrible about saving money for the future that their primary asset is the net value in their home (only 1/3 of households have an IRA.) In times of rising prices, it can be a good investment. The old saw about paying rent vs. paying a mortgage...with the latter you end up owning an asset. Of course that only works when housing prices are rising. When they are falling, not so much. Then you can end up in a deep hole as many have found out during the housing crashes.

I see some young ones who are starting out with a life style and house that we never had back when I was a young adult boomer.

We had no phone, one small black and white TV, one inexpensive car, no air conditioning, and, of course no such thing as cable TV. We had one old radio. We lived in cheap rented houses and received food stamps and we ate lots of soybeans and whole grains. We bought very few clothes and I sewed just about everything of mine.

Hubs got the GI bill to go to school and we got a couple of hundred dollars a month and I worked a min wage job. We were poor

He got the education and then went to work with Civil Service after he got out of college. HIs first pay-scale had us at about something like $12,000 a year and we wondered what we were going to do with all that money! This would have been about 1975.

We had our first child and hubs rose progressively in his career and i still worked min wage jobs. onve the kids got to school. It took us years to attain a higher standard of living. We lived with little. I washed diapers by hand until my parents brought us a used washer. Stlll had to hang the diapers up on to line dry.

My first baby had next to nothing but that was really all she needed . I sewed some little shirts for her and little old fashioned baby gowns. We bought a cheap crib that served through the next child. My kids had very little and they never knew it.

My parents, the depression era generation had even less. My dad built a one room tiny place for him and mom and the first son, 1940s. They had one bulb in the center of the room and my brothers crib was an old drawer.

Young ones now expect to have so much.

We never had any debt until we were able to take out a mortgage for our first house that we paid $10,000 for and it had two bedrooms and was all only a couple of hundred square feet. We had no credit cards back then, and have never paid interest on the ones that we have had since .We lived within our means, what ever that was. We did finance one vehicle that we paid off.

Minimum wage rises annually here, in Colorado.

Quote: $13.65 per hour under Colorado law beginning January 1, 2023.

I see grocery store "help wanted" signs that say, no job less than $15 an hour. Call center jobs, $22hour. Construction side jobs doing piece work, $100hr. Tons of people have started a business cleaning houses/commercial buildings. Tree cutting & clean up. Home Beauty Salons, nail salons. It only takes 4 weeks to get a real estate license, then you can manage properties. Opportunity abounds in THIS economy!

Buying a home is important....because everyone NEEDS a place to live! Doesn't matter if the real estate market is up or down...a roof over your head is vital. Not everything you buy is an instant investment. Some things you need to survive....a house is one of those things!

You don't "need" a college degree with a loan. Trades are always hiring...or work "and" go to college....I did. Pell Grants(for poor people, I had one for my first year of college) and scholarships are still available.

annie, your story about your parents and your dad are ones that I can identify with. My dad also could , and did, bulld just about anything. He built a small house for us in Alaska along with my mom. She, too, had many a survival skill and she gardened, cooked, fished, and sewed and canned up all the big garden that she kept Dad hunted in Alaska and we ate game most of the time. Then never had any debt whatsoever, at all!

He built the small house on a lot in Anchorage that belonged to a friend, then they bought their own lot and my mom got the house moved from one place to another while he was at work. He dug out from under the house after he had put it in place by going through the floor and hauling out the buckets of dirt through the window with the old car.

He built another house in Texas when we returned to the lower states. They rented it out to one family that stayed there until he and mom lived there when he retired. They built it together. Sure that they hired an electrician to do the wiring, but all else they built themselves Mom worked by his side as an equal. They lived there for a long time .

My parents would have been good people to have at your side if you were in survival mode.

Altogether, he and mom built 4 houses together, all by themselves and while raising a family. They lived frugally and did pretty darned well for themselves . Mom had only a high school degree and my dad never went to school a day in his life and could not read or write very well, but he had intuitive and very practical skills. He learned sheet metal skills and welding as a young man and he worked those trades in the Air Force and after he retired.

Together, they managed to help us all out along the ways and they even helped out a close friend by paying off their mortgage for them. They left us a nice inheritance. No one ever gave them a darned thing! They were totally on their own!

He built boats for fun. He built small racing boats, boats for the rivers in Alaska and a pontoon boat that we used in Texas.

And, of course, he was a WWII vet. He saw horrors that he kept to himself and had some scars that he never talked about.

They were a tough generation.

caflower..., I identify with your experience. Many young ones today have not experienced need or done without much. Sure there are always those who have tragic things happen. But many have not had to fare for themselves.

My sister and hubs give lots of financial support to their young married son. Both he and his wife have good college degrees and are starting careers in the medical field and the parents have bought them a nice new car, paid for all moving expenses, givent them the most money that they can in one year, and continue to pay for things on the house that son just bought. This young man never even had to work a day in his life until now and he in late 20s now.

Of course he is their only child and they certainly have it to give. It makes sense to help son out now to buy the house and get started. Why should he wait until he has to inherit it? They also gave him a big sum to be able to buy the house.. They give and give and give. but he has been pretty darned indulged for most of his life. My sister gets angry at them because they support two dammed dogs and they go out to eat all the time. But still she gives to them.

Her family also gives . Her dad is also a medical professional and has done quite well. They are so indulged!!

And let us not forget the very expensive wedding that the families put together.

These young one would be among the first snow flakes to melt.

Very interesting thread. There is way more opportunity today, yet, it is often more difficult. For example, getting into university is extremely comoetive. At least, it is in canada. Way back, when I applied the competition was mainly from people living in this country. Now, there are applicants from all over the world. A 95% average is often, not high enough to be admitted.

Rentals are extremely expensive, never mind home ownership. In the past, I have seen closets being rented out https://bc.ctvnews.ca/windowless-room-barely-larger-than-a-twin-mattress-renting-for-750-a-month-in-downtown-vancouver-1.5889378

It's a complicated topic and one that I find pushes my buttons at times. My parents and grandparents sound just like everyone elses--worked hard, saved money, didn't accrue debt, used things until they wore out, my mom made our clothes, etc. I carry a lot of those traits myself. For example, I NEVER pay someone to do something I can do myself--mowing grass, painting, cleaning, etc. They lived the American dream in that each generation did a bit better than the previous. I am not confident that this is possible for our young people any more.

I do find myself annoyed with people who cry poor when they drive fancy cars and have to have the latest iphone or can only live in a house with granite countertops, etc but that is certainly not everyone. Just the vocal ones. I don't embrace the disposable society. I am using pots and pans that belonged to my grandmother!

Having said that, I think our values are all messed up in this country. We are a consumer nation. We don't care for our things (buy, buy, buy) or each other. Healthcare, childcare, education, providing a secure old age for our citizens--it's all sub par in this country. Having a decent place to live is all part of the bigger equation.

And things will only get harder for young people if "they" (you know who they are) try to reduce or eliminate social security and our social safety nets.

Nicole, "Buying a home is important.... a roof over your head is vital."

Those are two different things. Yes a roof over your head is vital. But if you obtain that via ownership or renting is a financial decision and a choice.

My former boss, after he retired, sold the big house he'd been in for decades to move into a rental apartment. Why? Because house prices had peaked so he could maximize his return, and he was getting too old to want to take care of a single family home any more. He said he'd rather just call the apartment manager and tell him to fix the plumbing or whatever. They moved into a luxury complex with gym and pool and such. They still had a roof over their head but no longer owned a home. And believe me, he was wealthy enough to pay cash for a home. But it was a choice.

FWIW, home ownership is key to generational wealth in this country - it's what has built up our middle class that's now in decline, and also why there's such a wealth gap, since Black families were denied home loans for so long, among other discriminatory practices. I think it's also skewed a lot of public attitudes, both historically and now as well. People who own their homes tend to oppose anything perceived as detrimental to their property values - like affordable rental housing. It's happening here. NIMBYs & neighborhood ass'ns organize to fight any moves towards rezoning or building new apartments here, which keeps their home values - and rents - higher by keeping the real estate market tight.

Carol--I agree with you also. There is a lot of new apartment construction in my neighborhood and people are losing their minds over who is going to live there, will they be mixed income, will crime go up, etc... Very NIMBY.

Unfortunately all the new apartment buildings are not affordable. I will be interested to see if they fill up.

One took over quite a few blocks near a train station. It looks like there is room for store rentals.

Here are the prices:

I see both sides. We own rentals. We do keep them below market value for many reasons.

However, this is not nonprofit or charity. It's a business to provide income.

I understand current limited housing availability is an incentive to make rents high, and also an incentive for developers/builders to focus on luxury, higher end properties, rather than more affordable ones.

And yet at the same time we have lots of crabby people griping about shabby, sketchy homeless people they don't want around.

I completely understand why developers tend to build luxury homes. The cost of the land is a fixed cost so to maximize your income from that you build big as there is more profit for the builder. Big puffy houses with cheap glitz.

" home ownership is key to generational wealth in this country - it's what has built up our middle class that's now in decline, and also why there's such a wealth gap "

Maybe, but so what? Are kids supposed to hang around doing little to nothing while waiting for their parents to die, before they can join the middle class? Do they have nowhere to live in the meantime?

Instead, I'd say the key to being able to live a middle-class lifestyle in the US is for young people to work hard to develop a trade or occupation with which they can support themselves and pay on their own for the lives they want to lead. That's what the trite "American Dream" is all about.

It's far easier to do little and try to blame others than acknowledge that goal setting and hard work to get there leads people to achieve the lifestyle one wants. And that the failure to do so is the real barrier, not outsiders or macro-economic conditions.

likestonehomes,

Among G7 nations, Canada has the highest percentage of college graduates, and many are then over qualified for available jobs. Countries like Germany (and perhaps Italy) emphasize trade schools, and in Germany trades are taught in high school for students that do not want to go to university.

I think it is great for everyone to be as educated as possible, but at some point, higher education becomes a luxury that not everyone can (or needs to) afford.

And the amount of debt you incur from education. Pay student loans, own a house, or save for retirement. Tough choices. Most young folks can't do all three. And let's not forgot the immense cost of childcare should you want to have a family.

Re: University Debt. I was confounded when DD attended FSU snd discovered student loan interest begins as soon as money is borrowed snd accumulates until paid off. No wonder America‘s students are forever drowning in debt.

This is very different than in Canada, where interest only begins 6 months after finishing or ending school.

As well, there is no ”out of province” tuition surcharges as in the USA, where out of state students are charged added fees.

Thank goodness DD was granted full scholarships!

Student loan debt in this country is a disgrace. The college inflation rate is out of balance with the regular inflation rate. Student loan interest payments begin now from the moment the loan is acquired. When I took out student loans, the interest never accrued until nine months after graduation. Who allowed the banks into this system? And, these loans are alll federally insured! The banks are paid no matter what! Students are drowning in debt. Say all you want about "they need to be responsible, blah blah blah". The system is messed up. I'll bet that most of you never came up against this system? I'm glad that my children didn't have to. But, they have plenty of friends who are strapped by loans and doing their best to pay them off. Yes, I do think it's harder for them.

Adding: I don't think everyone should go to college. But, the cost of higher education should be more in line with the rate of inflation. And, something must be done re student loan debt? I don't know the answer to that thorny and politically loaded question? I do not think this generation is entitled or lazy. I'm around a lot of 25-40 year old people; they are all working hard, and expect nothing to be handed to them. They have also lived through some tough times.

"Instead, I'd say the key to being able to live a middle-class lifestyle in the US is for young people to work hard to develop a trade or occupation with which they can support themselves and pay on their own for the lives they want to lead. That's what the trite "American Dream" is all about."

I get that. But what about people who contribute to society through art and music. They might not make the big bucks yet their talents/gifts/contributions are very needed. In my opinion, they are the reflection and foundation of a thinking society. Should they not be able to have a house? Family? Retirement? Not an attack--just a thought on a Sunday afternoon.

Annegriet's comment reminded of an anecdote from a long time ago - about a theatre troupe putting on packed performances after a devastating disaster. When asked about why they were doing something that seemed so frivolous, she replied 'we are not animals'.

" But what about people who contribute to society through art and music. " I say REALITY bites and what I told my very talented daughter who loves to be on stage singing and acting "whacha gunna do to to pay your bills while you strive for your dreams"? She's a County Web Master by day and doing a lot of community theatre by night. She owns her own home, car, travels all over; living a great life. VERY FEW 'artists' support themselves with their art. Is it valuable--absolutely--but this isn't socialism after all.

I'll give you a Sunday morning reply. ;-)

It frustrates me to no end that with public issue after public issue, Americans do little or nothing thinking that we are the only ones facing such problems and my oh my, whatever can we do?

Addressing your question first, Western European countries long ago adopted spending polices to give financial support and encouragement for arts and culture. It's part of their "civilization". All the way down to the individual level where stipends are often available. Even such things (in France at one time, as an example) supporting traveling circuses and street art for public spaces.

When passing through public places in Europe and encountering sometimes humorous or clever statues or "artworks" decorating the space and wonder who would be able to support themselves doing such fluffy work? The answer is, artists receiving governmental commissions and grants account for many of them. Theater tickets in London, for the same shows and same high quality as those playing on Broadway, have long been significantly cheaper, because of government subsidies. Museum entrance fees, to often the best museums in the world, are cheaper there than even for mediocre museums here. For the same reason.

In the same theme, while vocational trade education has been withering away in the US, it's flourishing in Europe and has been for a long time. In most countries there, governmental educational policies underwrite formal programs to provide free vocational training. As part of the training programs, private sector employers are often REQUIRED to accept apprentices for training. Usually X apprentices for every Y number of employees, depending on the sector, to complete the work side of work/study curricula. Guess what - graduates of such programs, and the rates are high, find themselves with employable skills with attractive income levels.

I don't expect either of such valuable public policy actions to be seen here. We're too busy with other things.

Maddie, no one is forced to to take out large student loans. It's a choice. I went to city college for under grad and an instate school my masters. I was offered a loan my first year my masters, all of $3,000. But then I was given a full ride for my year because I was supporting myself.

Going to an expensive college was not on the table for me or my siblings.

Newsflash - almost all of them are expensive now. Have you seen what tuitions are for most schools these days?

It appears that many people rely on their own experiences from a generation back. It's not like it was even 20 years ago.

And there are some great, innovative voc-ed/apprenticeship programs around the country - but not everywhere.

We actually have subsidized puplic art as well. I worked on such a project myself. It is up to personal opinion if the art subsidized is worth what we all pay for it.

Elizabeth Warren has a lot of information on the huge change in subsidizing education with taxes and the impact of the predatory loans that students get stuck with. Getting a degree is almost required to do anything. Maybe an erosion of high school education? Plus how do you predict what jobs that you study so hard for will still exist in ten years, well before you can pay off the loans. Getting a degree seems more about proving you are capable of learning more or less. An expensive proof.

FWIW, I recall paying per credit hour per semester back in the mid-80s, and it was 35$ per hr for in-state residents. I lived at home and commuted.

Adjusted for inflation, that's equivalent to $105 now.

https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

" but this isn't socialism after all "

Do you know what this word means?

" there is no ”out of province” tuition surcharges as in the USA, where out of state students are charged added fees. "

Many state colleges and universities in the US have to face ever rising costs and dwindling state support. They can't spend money they don't have and so the shortfall in support leads to rising tuition charges. What I believe exacerbates the problem is that too many American youngsters who are neither academically oriented nor capable wind up going to college because - what's the alternative. And too many state schools are NOT selective in their admission practices. The schools thereby have to accommodate swollen enrollments and spend money not for good value returned.

Many private colleges thought to be "very expensive", including some of the very best, are in fact not expensive at all. And can be cheaper than state colleges for in-state students. Many provide free tuition to qualified students from families with modest or lower middle class means and provide generous subsidies to cover living and other costs.

And, supplemental tuition charged to out of state students is EXACTLY the same as charges travellers incur around the US, like municipal hotel taxes, occupancy tax, supplemental tax for rental cars, and the like. Why? Because the expense falls on people who don't vote, so it's a way for cowardly politicians to raise more money without angering their local electorates.

" there are some great, innovative voc-ed/apprenticeship programs around the country "

Name a few. Are they large and widespread? Who pays for them? Are you saying there are enough of them?

" but this isn't socialism after all "

I'm actually a huge fan of democratic socialism--ya know--like Social Security and Medicare. In fact, I'd like to see a lot more socialism in this country--like free higher education and national healthcare.

I'm sure the commenter and all her family decline out of principle to participate in Social Security and Medicare.

A republic depends upon an educated population.

In the US, that value changed when a high school diploma no longer brought most students to a level of competency valued by employers.

Our HVAC tech graduated HS and owned his own home in three years, trading skills with his buddies, who are electricians, carpenters, plumbers, etc.