Issues making and using Als 5-1-1 mix: ingredients and nutrients

last year

last modified: last year

Hello everyone,

I've been silently lurking this forum for quite some time now looking for an appropriate substrate for my aroids. I dislike overly complicated mixes so I naturally more or less stumbled upon Taplas 5-1-1 mix.

I live in Germany and 2 of the 3 ingredients are sadly not available: partially composted pine bark and sphagnum peat (I also misread Als recipe and used sphagnum moss instead ...). At least I'm not able to find them.

So, I basically made the mistake of using uncomposted pine bark. I've been using the mix for about 4 months now, and most of my plants recently started showing signs of nutrient deficiencies (the pictures are just 3 examples):

There's no stunted growth or browning going on, only chlorosis.

Now, I have a few questions:

Looking at the leafs I would say that this is not a nitrogen deficiency but rather iron or manganese. Only young leafs are affected. Could this be caused by my "faulty" mix?

As it is not possible for me to find sphagnum peat, could I use white peat as a substitute?

I did a pH slurry test to rule out pH issues. My meter read 5.5. If I were to use peat, wouldn't the pH drop considerably?

I do not use dolomitic lime in my mix, instead I add CalMag to my fertiliser (I water + fertilise every 5-8 days): CalMag to 450µS, then fertiliser 8-3-6 (with trace elements) to 1450µS, pH 6.5 (RO water). Is this an adquate substitute for lime?

I know those questions are quite specific and understand that remote diagnosis is hardly possible with plant related issues, but I feel like I'm losing my mind about this. I really want this mix to work for me. I've been researching for days now, digging endlessly through weird, vague blog sites and forums. Maybe you guys have an idea.

Thank you for taking your time reading this.

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Comments (5)

BillMN-z-2-3-4
last year
last modified: last year
Hi Doc D.!

I can only share the way that I have made 5-1-1 and hope it helps.

I have never used composted bark. Just regular pine bark, bought as bagged mulch that I've chopped up in a pail to get it down to the 3/8" to 1/2" size, then run through a screen to separate the really fine dusty stuff from the coarse usable parts.

Now it's my understanding that the milled peat moss portion of the mix, is in there to give moisture retentiveness. Otherwise, using bark alone, even with perlite, there would be little to no moisture holding capacity.

On the same note, I could've used the bark fines instead of the peat moss and get generally the same results as I would using peat moss.

The dolomite lime only adjusts the mixture ph as the bark and peat tends to be on the acidic side.

One thing to remember, when using a soilless potting media like 5-1-1, is that there are no nutrients in the mix. Any macro or micronutrients, have to be supplied by you and is most often applied in and during the watering regiment, by watering until the liquids run through the mix and out the drain holes in the bottom of the containers. How often depends on the plant type and your discretion.

Otherwise, your plants will be totally nutrient deficient.

p.s. I use a Mirical grow brand of water soluble wide spectrum fertilizer although there are many good brands out there. I also add magnesium sulfate as the MG here in the US doesn't contain any mag.

:-)
BillMN-z-2-3-4
last year
last modified: last year
One other comment that came to my mind. If you do not flood the pots, so the liquids run out the bottom, you can get a build up of salts from the fertilizers. The flooding and draining not only helps keep the salts moving out of the mix, but also pulls air into the mix along with the water. Roots love air as well as water. ;-)
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hello mike glad ur around : ) , well yes indeed the grit would'nt be no prob : ) , but the turface was or maybe still is the prob : ( , upon what said looked up and called PEP BOYS , WESTERN AUTO and AUTOZONE , all auto part stores here and this is what i found thrifty sorb: http://moltan.com/Products/Flyers/Thrifity_Clay_flyers_10.pdf http://moltan.com/msds/MSDS%20pdf/MSDS_Clay_Thrifty-Sorb.pdf ********************* oil dry : http://oildri.net/Downloads/OD%20Granular.pdf http://oildri.net/Downloads/MSDS_1003000Aug11.pdf *************** and this oil absorbent found at AUTOZONE , its only name was OIL ABSOBENT ( didnt take a pic of the front of bag , but took this pic of the ingredients ) http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k542/tecnico5/Photo0056.jpg please check them did not put in the link section cause they were 4 links : ( , so have any one used this options instead of turface , which by the way the only company that has it here only works the GREEN and the PRO LEAGUE , which have read and Al also says is to small for the gritty mix , and called the company TURFACE where they make the product and told me they could send me a single MVP bag but the cost would be tooooo muchhh pricey :'( , they gave me the price but with that cost price of only the shipping it would be various $$$$$$ so not an option buy the 50 lb bag via them : ( , so woul appreciate if any have used this products as turface subsitute , and could tell me which could be a better option : / , hope Al also checks them : )
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I can't speak for Al. I hope he or someone else who has used this mix for a while will chime in. I always followed the advice to add one tablespoon of lime per gallon of mix and I prefer to measure five gallons of bark to three each of perlite and peat. My formula was closer to what he describes as a small batch: Small batch: 3 gallons pine bark 1/2 gallon peat 1/2 gallon perlite 4 tbsp lime (or gypsum in some cases) 1/4 cup CRF (if preferred) You will notice this is actually 6-1-1. Al has said many times that these formulas are really more of a general concept. I suspect he didn't want new gardeners to get hung up on making exact formulas. I don't think you should repot anything you just put into the mix you made. It is fine the way it is. I was mainly trying to explain why there was a difference in your measurements between the two batches.
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How long will the Florida peat last vs the length of time the Canadian peat will last? Too many variables - no way to tell. It depends on what you use for fertilizer, how moist you keep the soil, how well-aerated the soil is ..... Could the 5-1-1 be topped off periodically with additional Florida peat to remedy the problem of it breaking down so fast? Shrinkage isn't the problem, per se. The problem arises from the fact that the FL peat breaks down into tiny particles quickly, particles that tend to clog up the soil's macro-pores, which tends to increase water retention and reduce air retention, air retention being the primary reason for making the 5:1:1 mix to begin with. Would less dolomite be used with Florida peat vs the amount recommended with the 5-1-1 mix using Canadian peat? Probably not. Since the peat is only about 1/7 of the o/a mix, the 1 point (or so) difference in 1/7 of the soil's volume isn't going to represent a significant change requiring a significant adjustment in the amount of lime used. Could the possible pathogen problem with Florida peat be remedied by first mixing the Florida peat with an acid material for a short period of time (without having to hot compost the Florida peat)? No. I'm not sure how you'd get that to work, or how you'd deal with the acidity afterward. I suppose if a commercial grower was going to use FL peat and needed to purge it of pathogens, he'd do it with a fumigant or by treating with steam (in your case probably, heat). I'm sure Canadian peat is more expensive in FL than in MI, but it's so inexpensive by the cu ft that it's hard to imagine that you'd save much. I'm guessing there couldn't be much more than about a buck/cu ft difference, at most? Al
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
last year
it should be pretty easy to make composted pine bark for next year.. buy piling couple bags in a tub or in a back corner of the yard.. and composting it this summer ... just steilize it before you put it in your mixes ..

https://tipnut.com/sterilize-soil/

wood steal nitrogen from the soil.. to aid in decomposition ... so the yellowing of the leaves can very simply be a lack of usable nitro.. i would water with half strength water sol fert.. and see if you cant green them up ... or i might go to quarter strength.. and use it with every watering ....

not many of us have a lot of faith in the hand held gizmo sticks for watering.. nor nutrient analysis ..

ken
BillMN-z-2-3-4
last year
It really doesn't matter if the bark is composted or not. You can increase the nitrogen a bit if needed, to account for any nitrogen immobilization (according to AL).

https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/1610475/partially-composted-bark#n=2

And bark is not the same as wood and doesn't decompose at as fast of a rate like wood, or immobilize the nitrogen at as high of a scale like wood products do.

I used to pick out as much of the wood product as possible for that reason.
tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
last year
..... and it needn't be "sterilized", either.

I regularly use uncomposted (raw) bark.

Keep in mind that the pH of container media should be lower than whatever pH is suggested for a plant in mineral soil. IOW, if a plant label says the plant prefers a pH of 6.0 - 6-5, unless noted it should be assumed to mean 'in mineral soils'. In contrast, a plant preferring a pH of 6-0- 6.5 in a mineral soil will need a pH of about 5.2 - 5.7 in a container substrate. This is one of the reasons coir and CHC's need to have a workaround in place (due to their high pH) other than a liming agent as a Ca/Mg source.

Al

Issues making and using Als 5-1-1 mix: ingredients and nutrients

Comments (5)

BillMN-z-2-3-4

BillMN-z-2-3-4

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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

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