I came up with two layouts for Sarah but she has some issues with both so I asked her to post here to get the collective minds of the best. I'll let her explain her issues with the U shaped layout. I'm hoping someone(s) can improve on either one.

Her island measurements are from cabinet to cabinet which means her aisles will be smaller and narrower than stated. Additionally her island cabinets are only 15" deep front to back which means drawer space would only be about 12" deep.

Seating at her island is only 1' deep.

This was the first idea I came up with but she didn't want to look out at her neighbor. In reality, most work is not at the sink but between the sink and the cooktop so she wouldn't be spending much time at the sink. (I forgot to mention that!)
In both cases the green lines would be cabinets. The blue above would be upper cabinets.

So I reworked the layout to put the sink on the peninsula.

Can you post the whole floor plans (current and proposed)? There may be other solutions. (EDIT: never mind, I recognize this now ;) )

I do like cpartist's suggestion to open up the pantry to the kitchen.

Actually, cpartist's second plan makes a lot of sense.

Unobstructed door next to pantry, fridge accessible without bothering the cook, no collisions between sink, stove, dishwasher door, oven door, and fridge doors. And you can check who's at your front door from the pantry window.

What's this?

Basement stairwell I am assuming

It's the basement stairs.

Correct. That is a basement stairwell. i’ve mocked up @cpartist second layout. My biggest concern is having space for the dining table and not running into it. I am unsure overall dimensions for a table with 6 chairs, so if anyone knows an average LxW that wouod be helpful. I think it just feels like you have to walk far to get ”into” the kitchen vs it being open.

Ah you should have asked me. LOL

My dining table which seats 6 is 60 x 42. You need 24" width for each person. So you have plenty of room to put the table going either direction in the dining area. :) You'd even have room for a nice big buffet. :)

And as noted, to get into the kitchen would be 3 steps, maybe 4.

I know you mentioned not wanting to see your neighbor but this is a really dark kitchen without natural light. Here is @cpartist layout, which I understood the direction they were going

Instead, maybe consider something like the following:

@Rabbitt Design what a neat tool!! I think you may be missing the window on the back wall. It is at the sink in the first option and same spot but no sink in the 2nd. I would love to see it if you wouldnt mind! I am also hoping that by opening up the pantry, light will come in from that window. I dont think we will add another window in the dining area as you depicted since it is cutting into brick and there will be a larger overhang there. However, there is a large picture window adjacent to the dining area that should offer alot of light!

@cpartist I appreciate these ideas so much! I will use the table dimensions and sketch it up more accurately tomorrow and share here. The idea is certainly growing on me. Or, at the very least, considering removing the island altogether from my original.

Hopefully others will chime in tomorrow too. Like I said, I may be missing something that others might see.

Ideally....... 60, or 54 with a 12' LEAF.

The space is visually , very square.

To scale below

Jan what are your thoughts on her layout or mine regarding space, etc?

I am confused about basement stairs as the rectangular space adjacent to pantry is said to be a stairwell. Then I see basement stairs drawn outside the mudroom. Are there two separate stairs?

Yes, two sets of stairs. One is interior, one is exterior. We cannot get rid of exterior. It is $15,000 just to remove.

@cpartist

SIDE BY SIDE...

For starters. ......You're asking me?!

I'd have done lots of things, because I strongly believe you can only ask so much of a space. One space or another will always be a sacrificial lamb : )

You have a mudroom mess, with nothing hidden from view, no closed storage beyond a bro om closet, easily accommodated in the pantry

A dark kitchen and a translucent shade would let in light......how LONG do you stare out a window at a messy neighbor?

I might open the BENCH space in the mudroom. and close the current opening. It's a big nothing waste of space as is - hooks and a bench. Big deal.

I might bump that pantry window wall out 18 inches.......five feet is enough for a "porch" landing. The fridge is really too far from sink.

I MIGHT have even slammed my laundry to the basement.........................Put two washers , two dryers down there. Three times per week wash, once down and once up.

But that's me. I go 27 steps down and back up for laundry. Haven't died : ) Guaranteed I'm older than the op

No matter what, that kitchen will need abundant electricity

the OP is in two threads for one house, and there ARE no separate issues. It's one house one reno.

Post the ENTIRE plan as is at this moment.

I like Cp's first plan (with the sink on the right wall). A cafe curtain over the window would obscure the view, but let in lots of lovely light, keeps the fridge near the sink, allows a lovely prep space, and keeps the DW closer to where dishes will likely be stored.

I love the pantry open to the kitchen, to take advantage of a bit of light from that window.

For me personally, I would eliminate the peninsula overhang. I just don't understand seating right next to a table (but I've never had an island or peninsula, so I'm used to living without it). That allows for drawers in the corner, facing the dining room.

Here is a rough layout including @cpartist second idea. I like that I can also be at the sink and see into the living room vs. having my back to the living room and dining room. I used 80 x 62 for the size of the table with chairs. This leaves 3' or more all around. I like the idea of a cabinet beside the fridge to account for more space to open the door, however, I don't want to give up the walk-in pantry. We could extend it further if this is now too small. I could also add a glass pocket door to let the light come in even when the door is closed. Everyone thinks this is a dark kitchen, but it is the same kitchen I have right now, except that it is more open to the living room with a large picture window full of light. The window in the pantry moves back, but that porch is covered and doesn't provide much light now.

This would be the other option, with a 2'5" island (15 inch cabinets), with a 14' overhang, 3'4" between the island and sink, and 3'4" between the island and basement door, accounting for counters.

OR keep the layout above and simply remove the island, but keep the kitchen open.

Why do you want a closed pantry closet versus having pantry pull outs that keep the kitchen more open in feeling?

So that I can see everything all at once and dont have to remember where I put that one thing I dont use very often. And to store bulk items like paper towels, and napkins, etc etc. And without the pressure of keeping it tidy.

"without the pressure of keeping it tidy."

Bulk ( 24 roll costco towels ) will end on the floor, encased in its plastic wrap, and that pocket door will be open 24/7 unless the queen is coming.As with most walk in pantries...........the natural light from the pantry window? Not unless the door is fully OPEN : )

Well, then I guess it is good that it will never get closed!

I am warming up to @cpartist first idea with the sink on the wall. Even though it faces the messy neighbors porch. I realy wanted to stand at my sink and look at my son playing in the backyard. However, the pros might outweigh this. The large peninusla with seats, unobstructed by a sink, is quite appealing. I could spread out food for guests, my son could sit and spread out his homework while I work in the kitchen. I will mock it up tomorrow and post.

Any other thoughts on the walk in pantry vs cabinets?

Cpartist's first option is a great choice. The fridge->sink->stove alignment is the most comfortable. I find the stove a bit too close to the window and peninsula (splatter zone) but it makes sense to maximize counter space between the sink and the stove.

As for the neighbors' porch situation, that could get better. Let's hope it does ;)

If you go for an open pantry, a compromise could be to put doors only on the cabinets by the fridge. The cabinets on the opposite wall could be open and no one would notice. I expect doors on both sides would get uncomfortable anyway.

EDIT: Where would you put the microwave?

@User a couple things… We can move the stove anywhere we want on that side. I was thinking of centering it more. Would that be better?

Microwave will either go in the open pantry if we go that route, but I’m still resistant :) Or we will put it on the counter or spring for the drawer microwave. It is currently above the stove, but we want a hood.

Which brings me to my last dilemma. I dont want the fridge impeeding into the pantry area, even if we do the open pantry. So the only place for the dishwasher, unless someone can convince me otherwise, is to the left of the sink. This is probably a faux pas but I think not having a direct line to fridge and having it kind of hidden into the pantry area is weird. I waa thinking pull out trash on the right.

I am realizing this puts the dishwasher in the corner, blocking cabinets. UGH! How bad is that?

Here it is to the right of the sink. It is weird to anyone else that you can't see the whole fridge when looking into the kitchen? I also think we would have to spring for a cover for the dishwasher. Too much stainless. But we already have a dishwasher that is very new =\

...

I have your potential layout with fridge at the end, then dishwasher, sink and cabinet base before the corner. I have a double window so could have put the sink next to fridge but I just didn't like the idea of no convenient counter space next to fridge. Now that I have been living with it for several years, I am happy with the choice. I like having a section of counterspace which is separate from of actual cooking space to set something out of the way while working on something else. The layout with no counter around the fridge would be difficult if you ever need to rearrange the fridge contents.

If you go for an open pantry, a compromise could be to put doors only on the cabinets by the fridge. The cabinets on the opposite wall could be open and no one would notice. I expect doors on both sides would get uncomfortable anyway.

That's what I was trying to tell her! That's exactly what I was thinking. Open on the wall no one sees and closed cabinets next to the fridge.

EDIT: Where would you put the microwave?

I had suggested a drawer microwave. It could be put on the peninsula side if she goes with layout 1.

It is currently above the stove, but we want a hood.

Very smart. Above the stove as you know is about the worst place.

So the only place for the dishwasher, unless someone can convince me otherwise, is to the left of the sink. This is probably a faux pas but I think not having a direct line to fridge and having it kind of hidden into the pantry area is weird.

With the pantry open like I showed in #1 the fridge is not hidden. It's in a direct line. Otherwise the dw is in the prep zone. Meaning you're prepping and someone wants to load the dw or you need to put a pot in. It means you have to move away from prepping so the pot can go in.

I am realizing this puts the dishwasher in the corner, blocking cabinets. UGH! How bad is that?

Not only blocking cabinets, but blocking prepping. BAD. LOL

Alright... I am on board :) I am linking it more and more as I realize the perks of actually living in the space. I want it to be functional, but I also want it to look nice. I think we will need to do a cover for the dishwasher unfortunately $$ :(

I increased the size of the pantry to 6 ft vs. 5 so I could get at least a 5' countertop on the open side (left). I put my microwave, blender, and toaster oven on top of the counter :)

How is the stove placement?

Should I do pull out trash to the left of the sink?

Is it too heavy with uppers on the right/sink side only?

Is the window alignment with the peninsula weird? Should i move it over so the window is more centered with the peninsula?

Thinking countertop height for the peninsula and bar stools that can but tucked under, with no backs.

This is for sure going to cost more (moving sink, stove, fridge, and D/W, plus more quartz and cabinets) so I hope it is worth it!

How is the stove placement?

It's good.

I increased the size of the pantry to 6 ft vs. 5 so I could get at least a 5' countertop on the open side (left). I put my microwave, blender, and toaster oven on top of the counter :)

Why can't you get a 5' counter in a 5' space since there's no door anymore. You put up a panel at the end like you would on the end of a cabinet run or the end of a fridge. That hides it from view and will give you almost a full 5' space. No need to increase the pantry.

Should I do pull out trash to the left of the sink?

Or you could do a corner cabinet trash.

Is it too heavy with uppers on the right/sink side only?

I personally would have no uppers on the right side since you'll have the pantry, then the fridge.

Since you pulled the stove over from the window which is fine, do the uppers on the stove wall like I showed in version 2. To get an idea of what that might look like, take a look at my fridge/coffee cabinet again. It will help tie the hood in.

Is the window alignment with the peninsula weird? Should i move it over so the window is more centered with the peninsula?

It's fine. No one will notice. We notice now because it's a 2d plan but we live in 3d

Thinking countertop height for the peninsula and bar stools that can but tucked under, with no backs.

Perfect.

This is for sure going to cost more (moving sink, stove, fridge, and D/W, plus more quartz and cabinets) so I hope it is worth it!

Stove shouldn't cost more. It will be worth it because it will be very functional.

Why can't you get a 5' counter in a 5' space since there's no door anymore.

It looked like in the drawing the countertop didn't start until about a foot in due to the fridge taking up the space on the other side. Is that incorrect? The pantry is exact 5' deep.

The shelving on the "open" side doesn't need to be more than 15" deep to keep your appliances. The exception would be the MW. What type of fridge do you have? Is it a counter depth or full sized?

Also what is the dimension again of the width of the pantry? I'm reading it's 6-7'. Am I correct?

I would strongly encourage you to hire a designer, typically %2-%5 of the total project cost, and more often than not, can increase your equity through value oriented decisions along the way. You have some complicated circumstances that they would help you navigate through. They can also help you with such things as calculating box volum of storage so you can make better decisions about your pantry setup.

I personally would move the fridge into the alcove, since it will be complicated to have it in the laneway which would be preferred. You'll notice when the fridge is in the line of travel, that your sink and window is crowded, no need for that in my opinion.

The answers you are receiving here are tip-of-the-seat answers and are not full considered, because these thoughts are for free. We can all throw ideas out to you, but a competent designer will put in the hard work to get you situated right.

Here is a rendering with the fridge pushed into the alcove.

as @cpartist mentioned, there is nno point of reference for your window at the peninsula and its placement is not troublesome. I might put in an additional corner window so you could still watch your son in the yard if I ran calcs to ensure you had ample storage solutions.

I personally would move the fridge into the alcove, since it will be complicated to have it in the laneway which would be preferred. You'll notice when the fridge is in the line of travel, that your sink and window is crowded, no need for that in my opinion.

Please explain what you mean.

I think what you're saying is to have an extra cabinet between dw and fridge. The issue with that is the OP really wants good pantry space and that would cut into her pantry space. In any design, there is usually something that has to give and since pantry space is most important to the OP, then pushing the fridge further into the pantry area wouldn't work.

If it were me, I would do as you suggest but then again, I rarely have much in my small pantry. The OP has different needs that she'd like met. :)

@cpartist the fridge is 32” deep and 36” wide. The pantry widith is approx 7’9”. They have to build a wall on the outside and (maybe?) take off the brick for the inside counter wall. Although, I’d be fine leaving it for asthetics. I also measured to the right of the sink window, only 4’ until you get to where the alcove starts. So i believe adding an extra cabinet would actually push the fridge completely out of sight. I’m not loving that or the loss of pantry space. However, we may be able to achieve the same look woth a DW panel. @Rabbitt Design I DO love the idea of a corner window if we could squeeze it! Thank you so much for this 3D pic! It really made me realize how much I like this layout. Also, I hadnt thought of a designer. TBH, I’m not thrilled with our architect . Every good idea for our plan has come from this fourm. I am SO grateful for the people here! I’ll have to check around to see if that is something we want to do.

So by my calculations, if you do the shelves on the unseen side, you'll have 46" for walking room between fridge and shelves.

If you have 4' to where the alcove starts, you could do the sink, dw, 12 wide tray storage or small drawers, then the fridge and still keep the fridge out of the alcove.

Your right! I like that idea! Especially if it saves money on the DW panel! Although I bet that would still look nice. And if I can get an upper above for cups?

46” is plenty! Would 36” been sufficient? Asking becasue if so, could the counter be deeper? We could do standard cabinets with good lower storage and a nice deep counter. Not sure if necessary, just curious!

From the right side of the peninsula window to the corner is 109”. Where would you place the stove?

No 36" will be too tight.

You can do an upper for cups or walk the 3 steps to the upper cabinets on the stove wall.

I would put the stove like I showed in layout 2.

I am going back to the sink in the peninsula but keeping the open pantry. I think it is a good compromise where I get a more functional kitchen with lots of workspaces, but can still turn my head to the right and see the backyard and see into the living room and see my son on the couch. The same layout, but I moved the sink and DW to the peninsula. I can do uppers on both sides of the stove and open shelves on either side of the opposite window. What am I forgetting? Any big red flags as to why this won't work?

If you could date your iterations so we can play catchup to comments that would be the awesomeness :)

Still would encourage you to hire a designer, would make a lot of decisions for you a breeze.

A couple of things I would consider after looking at this for a few minutes(really just a few minutes, I would take days instead of minutes if this were my project)

• No drawer pack next to sink
• Fridge location, looks fine from plan view and the default wide FOV from Chief Architect software which you have shown, but in actuality it will feel pinched navigating around the cabinets in the nook with the fridge
• Blind corners or Le Mans instead of Susans
• Consider Hi-Lo counter at sink. Kitchen is open, so eating next to your kitchen, their is no way to hide prep counter. Must manage cleaning while cooking unless you want to eat with a mess in sight.
• I would still tuck the fridge in the nook as a visual preference and to free up some counter space and freedom of lower cabs. There is plenty of storage still for a household of 3 or 4.
• moving sink to the outside wall frees up the range wall for better storage solutions for your cooking wares.
• Build a decorative awning or planter outside of your window or put a garden window in to block your neighbors porch

My two cents:

Fridge location, looks fine from plan view and the default wide FOV from Chief Architect software which you have shown, but in actuality it will feel pinched navigating around the cabinets in the nook with the fridge

You say that and later on you say to move it into the pantry area. Make up your mind.

Blind corners or Le Mans instead of Susans

Consider Hi-Lo counter at sink. Kitchen is open, so eating next to your kitchen, their is no way to hide prep counter. Must manage cleaning while cooking unless you want to eat with a mess in sight.

Rabbit Designs NO one is doing bar height bars anymore. Not good for children or the elderly for sitting and not even good for those who are on the short side. Plus it cuts into usable counter space for when entertaining.

I would still tuck the fridge in the nook as a visual preference and to free up some counter space and freedom of lower cabs. There is plenty of storage still for a household of 3 or 4.

How do you know how much food storage and other storage she needs? She wants and needs a pantry and you're taking it away.

moving sink to the outside wall frees up the range wall for better storage solutions for your cooking wares.

But then she loses the ability to look out at her garden and to supervise her child. While I agree with you in the sense of functionality in that it's a couple less steps, it's not what she NEEDS.

Sarah and I have been messaging back and forth and I showed her this from what the "designer" had given her.

Putting the Dishwasher, sink, corner cabinet with 1 drawer for silverware and bottom for trash cans. On the back of the U, 3 drawer lower cabinet, stove, 3 drawer lower cabinet, dead corner (meaning nothing there.) For the upper cabinets, equal sized cabinets on either side of the stove, and then 1 double door upper dying into the wall.On the wall with the window, 2 equal sized lower 3 drawer cabinets. You'd be surprised how much you can get in larger drawer cabinets and how much easier it is to divide them. Use the one closer to the fridge for dishes, glasses, etc.

Microwave can go on a shelf under the right upper corner cabinet or in the pantry on a shelf

@cpartist the tone of your response reads as combative to me, I am only offering my opinion, my thoughts are not absolute, I have spent very little time with this project and zero time with this client, if I have offended, I did not intend to.

" You say that and later on you say to move it into the pantry area. Make up your mind. "

I maintain that I would rather push the fridge into the nook. My sentence structure left too much to interpretation. The drawing shown has a 24" cabinet opposite the fridge and that area will feel really pinched if built as shown. I would shorten the depth to 12" leaving a closer-to-standard 42"-48" of space to walk into the nook. You mention this in an earlier post, so we are in agreement there.

"Rabbit Designs NO one is doing bar height bars anymore "

In regards to hi-lo counter, I simply ask that a client would consider what I mentioned about keeping a clean kitchen when the eating area is adjacent. I would never make a decision based on a trend unless that trend is informing me of a problem. Their is a new trend popping up, clients wishing they had some way of hiding their prep. It is something to consider, same as the considerations that you mention. Most houses that I design for do not actually sit at a 3-seat peninsula but rather stand. 4-5 seat peninsulas with a different dining and kitchen configuration may sit more often. If it were my kitchen, I would rather have the hi-lo to tuck the prep...but I do not like eating next to a messy kitchen, and I like eating when the meal is hot. Personal preference only.

"How do you know how much food storage and other storage she needs? She wants and needs a pantry and you're taking it away"

I'll re-word my statement, their is plenty of storage for a typical household of 3 or 4, based on the volume of historical data I have collected, from 80-100 projects/year. Take that for what it is worth, just an internet person's professional opinion. I still provide a pantry and a cannery storage unit in my 10 minute sketch. I am not the designer on this project, if I were, this would be a challenge to solve for and I am sure I would reach a conclusion that would satisfy my clients needs. I am offering these thoughts up to be helpful, on my own time.

"it's not what she NEEDS. "

Would you consider putting a window on the Plan North wall where I have the sink drawn. Would this satisfy the condition you speak of?

@cpartist the tone of your response reads as combative to me, I am only offering my opinion, my thoughts are not absolute,

I apologize. It was not meant that way.

" You say that and later on you say to move it into the pantry area. Make up your mind. "

I maintain that I would rather push the fridge into the nook.

I actually agree with you on that but the Op wants it out in the main space. :)

My sentence structure left too much to interpretation. The drawing shown has a 24" cabinet opposite the fridge and that area will feel really pinched if built as shown. I would shorten the depth to 12" leaving a closer-to-standard 42"-48" of space to walk into the nook. You mention this in an earlier post, so we are in agreement there.

Yes we are. I think she could go up to 15" comfortably.

"Rabbit Designs NO one is doing bar height bars anymore "

In regards to hi-lo counter, I simply ask that a client would consider what I mentioned about keeping a clean kitchen when the eating area is adjacent. I would never make a decision based on a trend unless that trend is informing me of a problem. Their is a new trend popping up, clients wishing they had some way of hiding their prep. It is something to consider, same as the considerations that you mention. Most houses that I design for do not actually sit at a 3-seat peninsula but rather stand. 4-5 seat peninsulas with a different dining and kitchen configuration may sit more often. If it were my kitchen, I would rather have the hi-lo to tuck the prep...but I do not like eating next to a messy kitchen, and I like eating when the meal is hot. Personal preference only.

I had a high bar in my condo. I'm 5'2" and always felt like I was a child climbing up a chair. LOL. I put a counter height on my island in my house even though my cleanup sink is on the island. As you say, personal preference, but it is also something most people are getting away from.

"it's not what she NEEDS. "

Would you consider putting a window on the Plan North wall where I have the sink drawn. Would this satisfy the condition you speak of?

Honestly, if it were my kitchen, i would have done something very similar to your last plan (including moving the sink to the window wall, except for the high bar. She actually has a window there. But it's not my kitchen. And at this stage of my life, I don't have a young child, I would want to supervise so I see her reasoning. :)

@Rabbitt Design these are some great suggestions! I will consider them all and appreciate the insight and advice, even if I don’t end up implementing.