Here's a Youtube video that I thought might be helpful

Bread recipe starts at 5:32, and so you have to skip to that part.

He does not use whole wheat flour, but I can change that. I have non-diastatic malt syrup, and I would use that instead of the malt powder, as the malt powder is bad about clumping and getting hard. Also, I would use semolina flour instead of cornmeal because I do not want a corn flavor in my bread.

Do you have a lasagna pan? I often make smaller rolls in a 1 inch deep rimmed sheet pan. I make them so they touch when risen and baked, to get flat, soft sides. And I have a big 2 inch deep baking pan - approx. 10X16 inches that I use, which makes for an even higher rise.

I have a 10x6x2" Pyrex pan that I use for enchiladas, and I guess I could make three 6" long rolls in that, but I would need to know how to adjust the recipe. I think I would only need about 2/3 of my recipe to make three rolls, or maybe only half. It would be easier to make half a recipe, although I'll have to beat the egg before dividing it in either case. I don't want the rolls to be too flat.

I made lasagna in my squarish Corningware pan, which fits nicely in my toaster oven. The enchilada pan fits also.

I just put them individually on a baking sheet. I want a sandwich to hold together, and I find that means it has enough integrity (flour) to stand and bake on its own. For me, 100g dough makes a good sandwich. 130g for a big sandwich.

I'll start with half a recipe and make three rolls. I can make them like the rolls in the video and see if they turn into acceptable sandwich rolls. If they don't, I can make them into Melba Toast.

I would have already ordered the roll pan.

Lars, you can build your own roll pan using aluminum foil and/or parchment.

Once I looked at the roll pan you linked, I went down the rabbit hole of USA pans, because that's what I use for gluten-free baking. I saw their cocktail loaf pan and I seriously think I need one of these!!! :O)

https://www.usapan.com/cocktail-loaf-pan-1142lf

I couldn't find it on the USA pans website, but this pan is what I use when I'm baking gluten-free rolls. They're round, so may not be what you'd like at all, but they do work nicely.

USA 6-roll pan

The other thing that I forgot to mention is that I will need to adjust my baking time. For a loaf of bread, I bake it at 375°, like in the video, but I bake it for 35 minutes, and I do not rotate the pan, since I use a convection oven. I guess I will have to reduce the baking time to 18 to 20 minutes for the rolls.

I often spray bread dough with water just before baking instead of adding ice to the bottom of the oven. I'll continue this for rolls and see how that turns out. The other change I'll make is making a slash in the dough, which I do not do when baking loaves.

Anyway, I will be making the rolls this afternoon. I think I will make a full recipe and then store half of the dough in the fridge for a couple of days, since I won't need that many rolls right away. I'll store the dough right after final kneading, which I do right after hydrating the dough for 20 minutes. I always hydrate dough for 20 to 30 minutes before kneading, as this has given me better results.

I'll see how this works out and then decide whether I need the roll pan. I have a Pullman pan, which I could use without the lid to make a long loaf and not fill as full as I usually do.

I would have to order the loaf pan (just ’cause I like it), and while I’m at it I’d have to find the ascorbic acid vital wheat gluten and powdered milk. Sounds like a really good recipe though.

The dough is resting now, and when I remove it from the bowl, I will weigh it, as I have never done this before, and I am curious how much one batch of dough will weigh. Then I will divide it and save some of it for later. I think I will want to have 125 grams per roll, and so I am hoping I will have 750 grams of dough so that I will get six rolls. If it weighs less, I will just make smaller rolls.

I always have ascorbic acid because I use it to make my tonic syrup (which is steeping in the fridge at the moment), and I keep VWG for whenever I make whole wheat (or rye) doughs. I never have fresh milk and so I use powdered milk instead, but you can substitute milk for the water and omit the powdered milk. The powdered milk is just a convenience, and you can omit the ascorbic acid or use a teaspoon of lemon juice instead.

ETA: Dough weighed 1155 g, and so I got two 577 balls, divided. I think I will divide the first one into four 144g rolls and then decide later how to divide the second half.

According to Pantry Mama, 140g is the right size for a large hamburger bun, but I want to make a Po' Boy type of sandwich, and so I think perhaps the size should be larger. I am now thinking that I should divide the dough into thirds of 192g each. I don't want something too small, and my original idea was that the recipe would make a total of six Po' Boy sized rolls, but that is just a guess.

Once I've done this, I will write it down and know how to do it in the future.

So funny that you mentioned Melba toast up there!

I was thinking earlier today about Melba toast and wondering if you can still buy it. We ate a lot of it growing up. It was sort of a staple - like saltines.

Julia Child made Melba Toast on one of her French Chef shows, even though it is incredibly easy. You simply slice the bread about 1/8 to 1/4 inch thick and then bake it at 200° for 20 to 30 minutes (depending on the thickness of your slices), as I remember. I make it all the time with day-old French baguettes, which is what she used.

I have an electric slicer that is good for this, but it is in Cathedral City, and the slicer I have here in L.A. is for meat and cheese and will slice paper thin, but is not good for bread. Therefore I use bread knives here for slicing bread, which is not that bad, but I do like the electric slicer for loaves of bread.

I watched the video above again, and he said that the loaves should be 175 grams each. That is 31 grams more than 144g and 17 grams less than 192g, and so I think I should have four rolls and just make them shorter than 10".

Ah. I was lost in the details there. My 130g ”large” roll is more like 6-7”. I think your estimates are sound.

Yum!

I finished baking the second half of the dough, and I made two 7-1/2" long rolls and two 4-1/2" diameter rolls. The round rolls will make nice mini-muffuletta sandwiches. We ate the long rolls as Po' Boy sandwiches yesterday.

I also bought this pan from Amazon. It is the same pan as the one from Webstaurant.com, but that site wanted $48 for shipping, which was more than the cost of the pan I thought $64 was expensive for this pan, but I could not find it for less. My one concern is that it seems that the pan needs to be babied, according to the care instructions. Since it was expensive, I will make sure to follow the care instructions, and this pan will not go into the D/W. Also, it should not be washed with hot water or strong detergent. I hope it holds up well. I think my recipe might just make five 12-1/2" long rolls, and then I can cut them in half to get ten sandwiches.

At Amazon, shipping cost is built into their prices. It's often still less than other places, but sometimes super-not. The only thing I can think of that would give a similar baking experience is a pizza screen, which is the wrong shape and you'd have to make your own ridges if your dough is soft. I assume it's the silicone coating that needs the babying. Considering they “guarantee” the crust, if you're going to be making sandwich rolls regularly, I can see it being a very useful pan, and worth the money. You might also be able to make 10 six inch rolls. Maybe even make a dam for the middle out of flashing or heavy foil. Maybe even coat it with silicone cooking spray. :) But I was thinking if you shape them with enough rising room, they could just share a lane. ;)

I could make 10 six inch rolls, and if each pair touched at the ends, they would still be easy to pull apart.

I like these rolls better for making sandwiches than a loaf of bread that I have to slice. In L.A. I have an electric deli slicer that is great for slicing deli meats and cheese, but it is not practical for slicing bread. In Cathedral City, I have my old slicer, which is great fro slicing bread but not that great for slicing meat thinly because it is difficult to control the thickness.

When I slice loaves of bread with a bread knife, the slices are never exactly even, but this isn't an issue with the rolls.

It would be easier to handle 6" pieces of dough than 12" pieces. I'll try it both ways.

Incidentally, I found my Silpat before I baked the second batch, and so they did not stick at all, unlike the first batch.

Nosy question? I remember your kitchen in L.A. being pretty compact. Where do you have a deli slicer strong enough to slice cheese? Isn't it huge? And how do you deal with cleaning it? Do you use cut-proof gloves? Some years back, I was given a sandwich shop model slicer, which was like a countertop table saw. It warned against slicing cheese, and the blade was scary. It went back to the store.

Your story sounds like one of those fairy tales with a moral: In one house you have perfectly sliced sandwich makings. In the other house, you have perfectly sliced bread. Perfect sandwiches can only happen on travel days with slicing at both ends of the drive. :)

I bought a butcher block island on casters fro Ikea for my deli slicer, and it is more or less in the laundry room/area, which I have never photographed. The slicer takes up the entire top of the island, but it is next to my peninsula, and so it is not that inconvenient.

To clean this slicer, it is necessary to remove the blade, and it is a bit difficult, but I think it is worth it. I bought a bunch of narrow bristle brushes to help.

I don't usually use my slicer for cheese because even though it is powerful enough to do it, it is a bit slow with cheese, especially compared to how quickly it will slice meats. I tend to buy sliced cheese, as that is easier, and it is necessary to clean the blade after slicing cheese, which I like to avoid doing.

My kitchen in L.A. overall is about three times the size of the one in Cathedral City, but I have only photographed a portion of it.

Ah! Thank-you, Lars. That all makes a lot of sense. My kitchen isn't small, but the only open space, including the laundry, is in front of the slider and pegboard cabinet, and that is already claimed. :) What you've done with your special slicing station sounds great! I just realized as well that your hands are probably a lot bigger than mine, which would make handling the blade easier. That slicer scared the crap out of me. Good thing I looked at the manual and pictures before I unpacked it, because the only reason they accepted the return is that it hadn't been unpacked. The lovely, clueless man who got it for me found it at a commercial kitchen store. I appreciate the explanation a lot!

I hope the new pan works well and gives you great sandwich rolls!

I found this photo of the peninsula in my kitchen right after the new countertops were installed:

There is 30" space between the 36½" high peninsula and the door frame, and this is where I put the 33½" high butcher block island on casters, which holds the meat slicer. The island has two shelves below the top, and I store flour and rice there, as well as my Cuisinart food processor. The meat slicer takes up pretty much all of the space on the top of the portable island.

You really dont want a sandwich roll to bake so high and thick, anyway, do you?

That still from the video of the hoagies has way too much thick bread for whatever it is holding. That much bread makes it hard to get a bite and it is over whelming for whatever is inside the sandwich. Consider the logistics of the amount of bread per the goodies inside of it.

I make sandwich rolls and I use a buttermilk bread that gives a nice tangy bread without any sweetness. I actually flatten out the rolls a short time before I bake them so that they wont mound up.

For a dinner roll, it is nice to have a nicely rounded roll. But, not so much for a sandwich. You can end up with a bread sandwich.

I did try to flatten the rolls out before I let them rise just before baking - I also do not want them to mound up too much.

I got somewhat better results with the circle shaped rolls I made for muffuletta.

What kind of buttermilk bread do you make? Is it a quick bread, or does it have yeast?

Buttermilk bread, basically two loaves

1/2 cup of warm water to proof the yeast

1 1/2 cup of buttermilk with chill taken off

1 scant tablespoon of yeast

2 teaspoons of salt

2 tablespoons oil

2 tablespoons sugar

About 4 to 5 cups of flour

Just put it all together the way you do any basic bread. You can lessen the sugar if you want. It doesnt make the dough sweet, rather, the bit of sugar makes for a nice browning of the crust.

Use it anyway you use any other bread dough. This makes wonderful burger rolls.

Of course, bake on a lightly oiled baking sheet or loaf pan.

I use this for all my bread crumbs. It beats the heck out of anything that you can buy. You can put in the processor and make it as fine or coarse as you want.

You can even use whole wheat flour, but I recommned a bit of white flour be added with the whole wheat so that it doesnt get too heavy.

I generally get maybe about 10 or so rolls, depending. I dont have a scale so some are bigger or smaller and sometimes there are 12, instead.

It makes a nice sandwich bread. It is not sweet and it has a bit of tang. Make a loaf, make rolls.

Buttermilk gives a nice crumb to many baked goodies.

I do believe that bread baked with buttermilk is the origin of what some might refer to as "farmhouse bread" or "country loaf" as well as that very, very American "Sunbeam" sliced bread. It makes a great sandwich bread..

I do, on occasion, buy a loaf of sliced bread, but I have found them all to be just too cloyingly sweet. It had been a while since I bought sliced bread from the grocery and I dont know if my taste changed or the bread did. It no longer appeals to me.

Darn, but I eat way too much bread. I am getting so darned fat!

Thanks for that recipe - it looks like something I would try. I think I would start with using 25% whole wheat - I don't think that would make it too heavy.

I keep powdered buttermilk on hand, and so I can use that. I never buy milk of any kind but always have powdered milk available, which I think is fine for baking or cooking. I even make protein shakes with powdered milk, but I don't like to drink milk because it upsets my stomach.

Lars, if it were not for the fact that hubs uses sweet milk I would never buy it, either. I do keep buttermilk around and it keeps for a long time, a bit like yogurt will.

I tried subbing powdered buttermilk one time in biscuits but I found that it just did not behave the same way as the stuff in the carton.. The consistency was not the same. The buttermilk made from the powdered one was too thin and watery and it behaved a bit like adding water to my biscuits.

I have decided to just keep a carton of buttermilk at my daughters house for when I am there. Although I might use it and then not use the rest for weeks, it keeps very well because this is the cultured stuff, like yogurt.

Milk starts a gag reflex if I even touch it. And buttermilk I only use in baking.

I always advise to just buy a small carton of it to use in baking. It is the very best for baking and I use it in just about all of my baking, from biscuits, to bread, muffins, waffles, cake, etc....everything. I will add a pinch of baking soda to the mix to give a bit extra reaction.

I use powdered buttermilk when I make waffles, pancakes, and biscuits, but I rarely make biscuits. I do make popovers frequently, but I use powdered milk and a bit of powdered cream in those.

I don't make enough waffles and pancakes often enough to use up even a small carton of buttermilk. I also do not keep yogurt of kefir on hand. My brother buys yogurt, but he buys the individual servings that have fruit in them.

I do add cream (or powdered cream) to waffles and pancakes, and I've found that that helps the flavor and texture.

Thanks, Lars! I never thought of adding cream to waffles or pancakes, though do use buttermilk. I don't make them often, but I'll try to remember. Waffles are also a great way to use up sourdough discard, which is acidic. Sometimes too tart. I bet cream would fix that.

I use about 1/4 cream and 3/4 milk in waffles, and they melt in your mouth. They also have butter in them.

I made another batch of sandwich rolls yesterday using my new pan, but I did divide the dough in half and saved half of it in the fridge so that I can bake it a couple of days later. I really do not need to have 10 rolls ready at one time.

I used my same whole wheat recipe, but this time the dough weighed 1180 grams, which is slightly more than last time. So I ended up with two 590 gram balls, one of which is still in the refrigerator. The first ball I divided into four rolls, as before, which came out about 7½" long, which Kevin liked, but for me it was slightly too large, and so I did not eat all of my sandwich.

The pan is excellent, and I'm glad I bought it. I will baby it (according to mfg instructions), since I consider it to be a bit expensive. First I washed it with mild soap and a soft sponge and then dried it with a soft towel. Before baking, I oiled it lightly with avocado oil. The rolls did not stick at all after baking and just rolled out of the pan.

I will say, however, that the rolls baked more quickly in this pan than they did on my much darker jellyroll pan. So much for dark pans baking faster - the new pan is bright, light, and shiny, but it got hotter than my dark pan, it seems. The new pan is perforated, and so that might have made the difference. Anyway, I am glad that I did buy it, but it is rather large and will take up more storage space, due to the dividers. Right now I have stored it in the oven, but I think it will fit in the cabinet above my refrigerator.

I think I might divide the second batch of dough into five rolls, since the pan has five divisions, and see how the smaller rolls work. That will give me 118 grams per roll, and I think that this is the size that I want for myself. I need to work on getting my rolls flatter and wider. I think maybe next batch I will use a rolling pin to get them into the shape that I want.

Here are some photos of the two rolls that we did not eat yesterday:

You can see that they look almost burned on the bottom, but they are actually fine. They are 100% whole wheat, and so that might contribute to the darker look.

I baked them 20 minutes and rotated the pan 180° halfway through, but still the roll on the right in the upper photo looks browner at the small end than at the larger end, but that might be because it is tapered. The larger one is 8-3/4" long and the other is 7-3/4" long. I was aiming for 7-1/2", and so I think I need to make them shorter and wider. I'll try to do this with the next batch. They did not fill the width of the pan's cavities, and so I should be able to make them flatter. I wanted them to be flatter anyway.

I did not attempt to slash these this time because that made no difference in the last batch. If I had been using all white flour, slashing may have helped. I much prefer the flavor of the whole wheat, but it also does not rise quite as much. I might consider increasing the yeast from 2 tsp to 2½ tsp, or I might just let them rise a bit longer before baking - not sure whether that is a good idea.

Rolls are still getting too dark.

I baked these 18 minutes, and the internal temperature was still around 215° when I took them out. I also rotated these halfway through. We have not eaten any of these yet because Kevin said that he had a sandwich the day before and wanted something different. We'll have two of them this evening, I think. This is why I do not want to bake an entire batch in one day.

Next time I will check the rolls at 15 minutes! However, these are not in any way burned - they just seem excessively dark. I did not expect bright shiny aluminum to have this result.

The rolls rolled around in the pan when I removed the pan. This pan is more non-stick than the Silpat.

I let these rise for almost two hours after I formed them into rolls, but the dough was still a bit chilled. I'm happy with the size and shape this time.

The perfs allow the heat directly. For the overbrown bottoms, try reducing the temperature a bit, but since you got them to 215°, you might want to back off on the time first. You could also try a higher position. The smaller rolls don't need to be that hot to be done. 195° should be adequate, and anything over 200°F should be good even for a full loaf unless it's very dense or very big. It's good to hear that the extra rise time did the trick. I always prefer that to more yeast. :) I hope you'll report on the eating!