I never had much luck in my attempts to control the size of my Cramoisi Superieur. It was too vigorous and well-adapted here to respond well to my frequent pruning (I tried to keep its size manageable for my small garden space). Like Patrick said, its canes were going everywhere and mine always looked "butchered". The bloom form, repeat frequency, and scent were always top notch through it all. It desperately wanted to get big, but I couldn't let it. In comparison, at a local public natural rose garden in my suburb (LISDOLA garden), Cramoisi Superieur has been allowed to grow to its full, natural size and shape. It appears to have NEVER been pruned. When allowed to do so, upon maturity, Cramiosi is a very graceful, productive, and healthy plant for my area. It's the first rose I check on when I visit there. It's my favorite china, if only I had the space to let it do what it wants to do. Randy

I guess that's what I'm wondering, too, peggy--if CS and LP are so similiar, how ARE we supposed to tell the difference? Especially if CS is being sold as Louis, or vice versa. And that's good to know that LP doesn't mind a severe haircut, barb. I actually pruned back the sides of this bush quite a bit this spring, as it was extending over the sides of the pot by several feet, but I didn't touch the height. Thanks for that information, Malcolm...I thought I had detected some differences in what few pictures of Slater's that I had found. I think I'll hold off and deal with one mystery rose at a time. Usually I don't mind owning a mystery rose...I've been able to identify everyone of them so far (a Lady Banks which was actually Fortuniana, a Cuthbert Grant which turned out to be a Zephirine Drouhin, etc.) But the confusion as to what is LP and what is CS has thrown me for a loop! I guess I'll have to leave it at this--I own a China rose now, and what a lovely little rose it is!

Thank you for the response, the 2 you mention Tammy I have not heard of but will investigate, I don't know how they would do here in Fla., and Sherry, I could start spraying again, Spinosad and Bayer 3 in 1 are suppposed to be effective, but I now have a nice colony of butterflys and bees, and even a Hummingbird! yay! so am trying to find roses that the Chili Thrips, and BS, don't like... and nothing seems to bother Louis P., also Spice, and Ducher, and Mrs. BR Cant, and Prosperity... so maybe they have some sort of nasty taste, or oil, or whatever, that makes them resistant.... also, I have noticed that the Drift roses, 2 coral, and 2 red, seem to be clean... but maybe the thrips have just by-passed them, who knows? anyway, the OGRs seem to be fairly resistant, some are better than others, certainly a lot better than the 'modern' roses... Belinda's Dream has defoliated a lot but is putting out more growth and buds, so she does have some resistance... these thrips like a lot more than roses, they have invaded my peppers, what's on the bush is shrivelled and twisted, so yes, I guess I have a bad infestation... I'll have to gradually find roses that are resistant...or spray... sally

I do absolutely nothing for blackspot. I refuse to be a slave to my roses. :-) I have quite a few old garden roses, and they're very tough. Most of mine have been in the garden almost nine years, so they're established, and black spot isn't noticeable. The old garden roses in the China class do the best for me (Louis Phillipe, Old Blush and St. David are some Chinas I have in my garden). I also have a hedge of the bright magenta colored Knockout roses in an area that only gets afternoon sun. They're fine. They'd bloom more if they got more sun, but they're doing really well. I prefer Louis Phillipe to Knockouts. I personally think Louis is less maintenance. My Knockouts look a little ratty if I don't deadhead them, but Louis doesn't look too bad if I don't get around to deadheading. Size could be an issue. Louis Phillipe will get gigantic if left to its own devices - 7'x8' easily. In my experience, Knockouts don't get as big. Louis Phillipe has a nice spicey fragrance, whereas I can't detect any scent in my Knockouts. But as far as your location and the amount of sun, I think Louis Phillipe or Knockout would bloom about the same there. I've seen huge bushes of Louis Phillipes growing in very shady areas in St. Augustine and they had blooms. Have fun! OGRs are an addiction!