Avramis roses and an OGR mystery

4 months ago

last modified: 4 months ago

I just received two bare root roses from Avramis, a Greek nursery that also breeds their own roses.
Unfortunately, while Avramis is listed as an introducer on HMF, none of their roses seem to actually be on there.
I got one Avramis rose called Pink Ekrixis (AVRAkrix), introduced in 2012, listed as a polyantha/floribunda, described as 60x60cm, strong fragrance, continuous bloomer:

The other one is a bit of a mystery.
"Chios rose"
It is listed as an OGR.

Avramis say they got it from their collaborators on the island of Chios, who have been growing it for a very long time. That's why I got it, since the climate on Chios island (zone 9/10) is quite similar to the one here in Malta.
But what is the "Chios rose"? Again, nothing on HMF.
On the Greek version of the page, they actually say it is a Centifolia. But they also say it is a repeat bloomer.
As far as I know, Centifolias don't repeat, except for Typ Kassel and apparently even with that one the repeat is far from guaranteed.
Is this actually Typ Kassel, and is Avramis just exaggerating the rebloom description?
I notice that HMF says Typ Kassel has a wide growth habit (150x150), whereas Avramis describes Chios' dimensions as 150x80cm.
Is this a different reblooming Centifolia?
Another option might be that this is actually not a Centifolia but a Damask or Hybrid perpetual... but is Chios really a distinct rose or did Avramis rename a Damask/HP that is usually known by another name?
If any of the OGR experts on here have any ideas, I would love to have your input!
I will post pictures here as it grows, hopefully the mystery of the Chios rose can be solved!

Featured Answer

catspa_zone9sunset14

4 months ago

last modified: 4 months ago

At first glance, I think the "Chios rose" very much resembles 'Joasine Hanet'/"Portland from Glendora", so, based on that and the description on the website, I would suspect it is a damask perpetual, at least, if not that particular variety. My "Portland from Glendora" grows to around 2 m tall each year and is taller than wide. It is also one of the most strongly scented roses in my garden and repeats constantly throughout the season.

Here is my "Portland from Glendora":

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Comments (23)

seasiderooftop
Original Author
4 months ago
Link to Avramis website:

https://avramis.gr/en/607-00-palia-ekatofylli-apo-ti-chio-chios-rose.html

The description of their roses is more extensive on the greek version of the pages. To view it, toggle the language using the button on the upper right corner of the page, then copy-paste into google translate.
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seasiderooftop
Original Author
4 months ago
Wow, @catspa_zone9sunset14 that is a stunningly beautiful rose bush!

If Chios turns out to be the Portland from Glendora I will definitely not be unhappy!

Meanwhile, I found another picture of a Chios bloom, uploaded to Pinterest by Avramis:

Hmmm ... I might be wrong but Chios' blooms seem less quartered than Joasine Hanet's. Then again, hard to really tell from just a few pictures of Chios.

I don't know what to think. I guess I will just let it grow and wait to see if there are more clues as it develops.
jerijen
4 months ago
You might encourage the nursery to provide their information to HMF. If no one tells them about it, they don't know, and cannot add it.
seasiderooftop thanked jerijen
seasiderooftop
Original Author
4 months ago
Yes @jerijen I will contact Avramis about HMF.

I wish I could add at least the two I have myself, but for some reason I can't understand how to add roses to that site.

I've brought it up in the "missing plants" discussion on HMF but got no replies.
seasiderooftop
Original Author
3 months ago
last modified: 3 months ago
Just found Chios rose listed on an Italian seller's website, they have more pics (small screenshot here, visit the link for full size (scroll down, the roses are all on one page):

https://www.vivaiotaroni.com/le-rose-bourbon

They have it listed in the Bourbons, but then the description says they think it's a hybrid perpetual.

To my eyes, from the photos it seems more cup-shaped than the more quartered Portland from Glendora.

I will post updates when she flowers, but she's just barely getting started in my garden, so it'll be a little while before I can!
portlandmysteryrose
3 months ago
An engaging mystery and a beautiful old rose! It looks less Bourbon and more Hybrid Perpetual or, as Catspa said, Damask Perpetual to my eye. Chios seems to have ”high shouldered” blooms. Carol
seasiderooftop thanked portlandmysteryrose
seasiderooftop
Original Author
last month
last modified: last month
Chios got very badly damaged by the multiple storms we had, but it's still managed to make some buds.

Here's what they look like:

I don't have another rose with buds like that, so does anyone have any ideas?

Hybrid Perpetual? Damask Perpetual? Bourbon?

@catspa_zone9sunset14 are the buds of the Portland from Glendora like this? From the HMF pics, the buds don't seem to be hairy like Chios, but maybe the pics aren't clear enough to show.
catspa_zone9sunset14
last month
Yes, seasiderooftop, the buds of my "Portland from Glendora" has glandular hairs on the outsides of the sepals and on the peduncle, though, like yours, not so much on the receptacle itself. Here are some photos of buds just taken (it's actually raining a bit here, wonderful to say, so it was a quick dash in a brief moment of sun):

Closer up:

Another bud

The stems of your plant are also very much like those of "Portland from Glendora".
seasiderooftop thanked catspa_zone9sunset14
Paul Barden
last month
Your rose is too full/quartered to be Glendora, but its certainly a Hybrid Perpetual of the Damask Perpetual type.
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portlandmysteryrose
last month
last modified: last month
I see China influence in the foliage photos here and on the Avramis website. That could certainly indicate remontancy. The variability of the blooms in these old beauties makes ID extra challenging, too. It definitely has that high shouldered Perpetual look which sends my mind down the HP/Damask P line of reasoning like Paul and Catspa. Carol
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Melissa Northern Italy zone 8
last month
How did I miss this post the first time round? I agree the rose has a Damask look to it: Hybrid Damask or Damask-leaning Hybrid Perpetual. Seaside, what Italian nursery offers it? This class is a big favorite of mine.
seasiderooftop thanked Melissa Northern Italy zone 8
seasiderooftop
Original Author
last month
last modified: last month
Thank you for the pictures @catspa_zone9sunset14

And thank you also for teaching me the rose anatomy term glandular hairs, I learned something new! The buds do look very very similar, perhaps the slight difference would be Chios has shorter, thinner little leafy protrusions on the sepals (there's probably a word for those too, sorry I don't know it!). But then again, my Chios has been through three gale force windstorms as the buds were forming, so they might have developed longer ones under better conditions!

@Paul Barden @portlandmysteryrose

Thank you for helping with the ID! So it seems there is a consensus around the HP/ Damask Perpetual class.

And yes, it is described as remontant, in fact Avramis says "continuous (from spring to winter)".

@Melissa Northern Italy zone 8

The Italian nursery is Vivaio Taroni, the link is in my post above but here it is again:

https://www.vivaiotaroni.com/le-rose-bourbon

I have no idea about quality from them.

I got mine from Avramis directly and the bare-root quality was awesome, but the season is over now, and their shipping abroad fees for potted roses is like 100€... So I won't shop with them again until the fall when bare-root roses are back.
Melissa Northern Italy zone 8
last month
Seasiderooftop, thanks for the nursery name. I noticed too late that you had already posted it. We've been done with planting season for a while: it will be November before I re-start putting plants in the ground, which gives me plenty of time to think about orders. This fall I may skip the area where roses go, and concentrate on other parts of the garden; if that's the case, roses may have to wait until 2023. Gardening pulls you in! Every gardener learns to "garden as if you were going to live another eighty years"!
seasiderooftop thanked Melissa Northern Italy zone 8
catspa_zone9sunset14
last month
seasiderooftop, some traits do vary according to weather, etc., so observation over time will help determine what is typical for the sepals and such. This time of the year, in particular, the flowers of "Portalnd from Glendora" are very full and quartered and quite architectural. Below is a sampling of three different flowers and the whole bush, for future reference.
seasiderooftop thanked catspa_zone9sunset14
portlandmysteryrose
last month
Je nais parles pas Francais, but I tripped over a Chios rose discussion in French. Carol

Chios Rose Discussion (French)
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portlandmysteryrose
last month
And here’s a FaceBook link with a video of rose season on Chios. Carol

Rose Season on Chios
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portlandmysteryrose
last month
@catspa_zone9sunset14

Your PfG is magnificent!

Carol
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Paul Barden
last month
A notable trait of 'Portland from Glendora' is that the blooms almost always have a broken outline, as seen in the photos above.
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Bob Atchison - Pallasart - Hagia Sophia
last month
I have a webpage on the Roses of Constantinople, Chios has a famous ancient 11th century Monastery where I have seen this rose growing. Perhaps the monks brought it from Constantinople.
seasiderooftop thanked Bob Atchison - Pallasart - Hagia Sophia
portlandmysteryrose
last month
@Bob Atchison - Pallasart - Hagia Sophia

What an interesting link! Thank you. The Avramis rose looks more like a very old but not ancient ”perpetual” Damask hybrid of some kind to my eye, but I can 100% understand why it would be grown at the monastery gardens. Whenever the rose was introduced to Chios, its beauty and usefulness were likely greatly appreciated by the monks. I see on the internet that there are Greek culinary exports that involve rose petals and rose water made from ”only the genuine roses of Chios.”

@seasiderooftop Your questions have sparked a delightful thread!

Carol
seasiderooftop thanked portlandmysteryrose
seasiderooftop
Original Author
last month
@portlandmysteryrose

Yes, hehe that was me on the French forum, I posted my question over there too in the hope someone might know this rose, but no luck there, beyond the Portland/ Hybrid Perpetual suggestion which concurs with the one given on this forum.

Great video about roses on Chios island, thanks for sharing!

@catspa_zone9sunset14

Your Portland from Glendora is such a beautiful rose, and looks so happy and healthy in your garden! I do see a strong similarity, in the buds but also in the foliage and the dense growth. What I clumsily expressed in earlier replies is my doubt regarding the flower shape, which @Paul Barden said better than me, since Chios' outline seems less broken, and more of a cup shape. But I will wait and see what happens when she blooms. Hopefully soon!

@Bob Atchison - Pallasart - Hagia Sophia

What a wonderful website you have! Thank you so much for posting that link. I really enjoyed reading about the roses in Greece, the ancient rose growing tips, and also learning about your journey as an artist! I also love the story in your bio about the icon you left in the bush at the church. Your work is amazing!

Your article about the Constantinople roses helped me understand the Avramis classification: by Centifolia they actually mean Damask. Very interesting to learn that this terminology goes back to Pliny!
portlandmysteryrose
last month
last modified: last month
@seasiderooftop

Ha, ha! That is so funny that I found you on the French thread. I Google Translated it. :-)

This is a delightful posting! I am SO looking forward to seeing your Damask (Perpetual) rose as it blooms and matures!! This OGR seems to be a very fragrant beauty with an interesting history. Maybe someday you’ll be able to travel to the monastery that @Bob Atchison - Pallasart - Hagia Sophia mentioned. I am very glad you decided to purchase this mysterious old rose and introduce it to the forum. You have piqued my curiosity! Carol