Thanks- live wire oak I can get the GE Cafe for $2450 here. I have been scared by the poor reviews it has gotten on this forum and the Consumer Reports site! By electronic module, I mean the touchpad controls and "brain". I feel certain that the self-clean high temps and baking bread with steam were the demise of the two previous stoves' modules.... which is why I was leaning towards the simpler, less-computerized, more "pro" and less "consumer" varieties. if I get a GE Cafe I would not dare to use the self-clean feature! guadelupe- I am very interested in the NXR ranges but have concern about their newness to the US Market, the fact that they are Chinese assembled, and the fact that I cannot see one in person locally. I am in maine. do you know of anyplace i can see one? Thanks!!

>>> but after the salesman explained how hot the oven doors get and how much extra heat they give off to the room, I took Bluestar off my list. (I have relatively young children, I live in an area with hot summers, and I don't have air-conditioning in my kitchen. * * * So...thoughts on whether it would make sense for me to spend several thousand dollars more for a DCS or a Wolf vs. a standard Frigidaire or equivalent?There are no simple answers to that last question, as Geoffrey_B has pointed out. But, let me offer a few additional considerations. Apart from being marketed as premium-priced, aesthetically fashionable luxury goods, pro-style gas ranges have multiple full-range burners that can go from highest usable heat to the barest simmer. Do you have times where, like gk7 described above, you will need several high-power burners at once? Or, like me, does your production cooking find you often running four (or more) large pans at high heat at a time. Pro-style ranges like the Wolf and DCS have cooktops that are spacious enough to fit all four large pans on at one time, a convenience that is handy for me with all the entertaining I do. While we all know cooking for five can be serious production-style cooking, how often will you be simultaneously running four (or more) 12" diameter pots and pans? Or, will it be a mix of pans and sauce pans which will fit together readily on the stovetops of the Frigidaires and GEs? Going with a 36" DCS or Wolf will increase the stovetop spaciousness, and that is an oft-discussed reason that folks here have cited as a benefit of the larger ranges. Practically speaking, If you really want that spaciousness, you have to buy a 36" pro-style range and you pay a premium for that. Only you can decide if that extra spaciousness is worth it to you to pay the serious price premium. For griddles, consider that the built-in ones for the Wolf (and probably the DCS) have only a 10 or 11 inches wide cooking surface. IIRC, there have been posts here stating that some find these griddles can be a pain to clean and maintain. For around $100, you can get a significantly larger and generally well-regarded Chef-King 14x23 carbon steel griddle that likely will heat as evenly, be easier to manage and clean, and can be stashed out of the way when you do not need to use it. You can use it as readily on a 30" range, too. The larger burners on the DCS and Wolf can make it bit easier to get even heating on that kind of griddle -- major brand stoves will likely have burners of differing sizes (and a small one in the back) which makes it harder to manage a large griddle. As for not wanting to fire up a big oven for a single lasagna --- and for limiting summer time heat build-up, as well --- you might consider a countertop oven like the Breville Smart Oven. (There are BSO threads here and at Chowhound.com that discuss these benefits in detail if you haven't already looked at this option.) One advantage of the large ovens in 36" ranges is being able to fit in full size sheet pans. Several 30" pro-style ranges (such as Blue Star) also may allow this, but you've already ruled them out. The question is, how many full-size sheet cakes do you plan on making? Or, do you think you might be regularly needing to bake three full-size sheet pans of biscuits at a time? (I know somebody who does that several times a week, but they're running a dude ranch.) You mentioned making a lot of muffins. How many muffin tins do you have? I once helped a friend whose own oven died right before she was ready to bake a lot of muffins for a bake sale. Between us, we came up with six muffin tins. I found that I could put pairs of them side-by-side on three racks in the oven in my 30" range. The oven in a 36" range is a few inches wider, but not wide enough to add another muffin tin to each rack. So, "muffin" production is probably not going to be factor for you in choosing between a 30" and 36" range. But, speaking of oven size, do be aware that some major brand 30" gas ranges will have deeper and wider ovens than on the 30" DCS and Wolf ranges you are considering. The ovens on the Wolf and DCS are rated to have capacities around 4.5 cu ft., as do those on numbers of major brand stoves including the higher priced ones. Plenty big enough for a 25 pound turkey at Thanksgiving along with a casserole or baking pans. However, some of the mid-level and higher-priced major brand gas-ranges have oven cavities that are a couple inches taller and deeper giving them capacities of 5 cu. ft and 6 cu. ft. More stuff at Thanksgiving and such times. Some are big enough that you can put half-sheet pans or cookie sheets in side-by-side and have 4 or 6 pans baking at one time. This extra capacity will matter to some folks and not others, and that will affect the calculus of whether a pro-style range will be worth it to you. Looking at your points about small children, hot summers and no a/c in the kitchen, I have to say that the ovens in virtually every all-gas range that I know of can make a kitchen uncomfortably hot in the summertime. It is not so much heat radiating from the door and sides --- some of which you get with electric ovens, too, btw --- the heat that comes from having to vent combustion by-products. The vents are on top of the stove. That can venting can heat your kitchen and it won't be radiating from the doors and sides. As true of major-brand ranges as well as the pro-style models. It is the nature of having fire in the kitchen. I'll defer to nycbluedevil on the Blue Star door issue, but note that some folks have posted complaints about some older versions of the BS ranges (from before 2012, IIRC) having door heat problems. So, even if BS has solved the problem, the salesguy might simply be parroting old info. Or the appliance store may have recent experience. One thing to be aware of with pro-style gas ranges like the DCS and Wolf is that the spaces between the top and bottom of the oven doors and the top and bottom of the framing are larger than on major-brand gas ranges. This gap allows venting to cool the oven doors. (Major brand ranges have narrower gaps because they different arrangement of the vent slots.) If your young children are still crawling on the kitchen floor or have compulsions to poke the fingers into any visible gaps, the heat of the back of the spaces could be a concern. Also, the top burners on gas ranges will have significant waste heat from the stovetop burners -- again, that's just the nature of cooking with fire in a kitchen and will be as much of a problem with major-brand ranges as the pro-style ones. Theoretically, it could be a bigger problem with the pro-style units because somebody could decide to run three huge fry pans and three huge pasta kettles simultaneously at maximum heat and the pro-style ranges have more big burners than standard ranges. But other than those mad-chef scenarios, the problem isn't particularly different for the pro-style all-gas ranges and the major-brand all-gas ranges. One point to consider, though, is that the pro-style ranges heavy-duty cast-iron burner grates and parts absorb and radiate more heat (and radiate it longer) than the thinner grates on most major brand ranges. (With some major-brand range models, such as the GE Cafe stoves, the grates are substantial enough to be indistinguishable in heat retention.) With those heat concerns, I have to ask if your kitchen has 240v service and, ifso, whether you have considered induction ranges as an alternative? Several of them have good sized ovens with strong convection capabilities and might serve you as well or better than the gas ranges your are considering. Plenty of power on the stovetops, too, and comparatively safer for small children in the kitchen. Also, several of them will allow you to use a large griddle that spans a couple of burners. A couple of the current induction ranges even provide a way to link two burners to do this. Finally, valid and informative statistics on appliance longevity is difficult to come by. A few years ago, the National Association of Homebuilders surveyed consumers on the longevity of ranges. They found the average was something like 13.5 years for electric ranges and 15 years for gas ranges. However, that turned out to be as much about how long people kept their ranges as how long the ranges actually lasted. To put it another way, it can be hard to find a solidly-built major-brand gas range without electronic controllers and many of them also have self-cleaning ovens. Those controllers can and do affect the longevity of major brand ranges, and some of them will fail as a result of heat from the self-cleaning cycles. Finding a very capable, heavy-duty gas range with minimal electronics is pretty hard until you get to ranges like the Wolf and DCS all-gas ranges. They are manual oven cleaning rigged with minimal electronics. Those that they have are modules and that are relatively simple, readily available, and replaceable by any reasonably handy homeowners. These are things like the spark modules that run the burner ignitors. That simplicity fixability does have an appeal and can contribute to perceived longevity. Also, the Wolf and DCS have heavy duty cast-brass burner components. They are much more stain-resistant than the cast aluminum and porcelain-enameled burners you find on most major brand ranges. Ultimately, though, every range represents a mix of choices and tradeoffs. The hard part is figuring out what those are and which ones matter to you. This post was edited by JWVideo on Fri, Oct 24, 14 at 18:43

Well ours is without question made of 304 stainless. But honestly I don't really see a problem using 430 SS either, depends on the way it was built as in some cases the 430 is better because it holds a weld better and can bend to certain specifications better without cracking. A range made of 430SS inside your house is not going to rust anyway, that is pure nonsense. I DO however think that 430 SS could have more adverse reactions to acidic type foods such as say Tomato Sauce or Lemon juice Vs 304. maybe if you sat it in a corner of an abandoned house for 30 years maybe, but if you use it everyday in a house with AC it is not going to rust, but it very well could have more staining with acidic foods. I think that 304 stainless is critical on a BBQ grill, but not so much on an indoor stove. But I am still glad mine is made of 304 Stainless anyway. But there are many things made of 400 series stainless that work just fine, never rust, one I can think of is most "Food Slicers, Deli meat slicers etc" are made of 400 series stainless. Car exhaust pipes are usually made of 409 stainless because of the better welding and heat resistance. I once had the pleasure of meeting an old guy out in California, he lived in the middle of no where on many acres of land and when I met him I drove through the classic old gate with elk antlers on top and his house was built in around the 1830's, was an old adobe that was built by a Mexican General when California was actually Mexico. House still stands today with the same tile roof, just one addition was added on about 100 years ago but other than that was all original, No AC. He had as his stove a old wood stove that was thickly enameled color of like a seafoam blue/green and all the corners and edges were all Stainless Steel. Had to be a 400 series stainless because I don't think the 300 series was even in use yet. That stove looked like it brand spanking new and at the time I saw it was about 90+ years old. Not a speck of rust on it, of course it was thick as hell but still the surface was still like new. I actually find products "Made in USA" about 75% of the time to be pure crap in every way. I bet 95% of the world views items "made in USA" exactly the way people like Deeageaux does about China. In general about every product I see with "Made in Germany" tag on it is probably about the only one I can generally count on being very well made, I can usually count on a high price for that item also. Most of the working parts in the NXR come from every place except China, it is basically just "Assembled" in China and who better to assemble than those that have been assembling things for decades. Also it is probably the larger brand name companies that are forcing retailers not to carry a quality product that cost far less, that happens all the time in every category of product.

>>> " happened to stumble across the following statement from Consumer Reports concerning high-end pro-style ranges . . . . Is this a situation of a Timex keeping better time than a Rolex even though the Rolex looks better?" <<< Yes, no, sorta, and it depends. FWIW, the topic of "are pro-style ranges worth it" comes up from time to time. If you have not already seen these previous threads, you might find them helpful to further thinking through your stove choices: http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2627764/pro-style-ranges-really-needed-for-a-serious-cook http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2305675/pro-style-ranges-overrated https://www.google.com/search?q=are+pro+style+appliances+worth+it&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2424674/want-a-pro-gas-range-but-is-it-worth-the-cost http://www.chowhound.com/post/pro-style-range-spend-money-587689 As for CR's opinion that a low-end coil burner performs better than the pro style stoves they tested, suffice it to say that some subtle and not so subtle points get lost or disregarded in CR's testing and in their proclivity for offering somewhat provocative or attention grabbing opinions. Take their stovetop burner tests which are actually pretty limited: how quickly will the big burner bring a pot of water to boil; how well does the small burner hold a simmer; and how well can the largest burner simmer a large pot of thick tomato sauce. Let's look at the speed to boil (high burner rating). An 8" diameter 2500 watt coil burner does a very good job at bringing pots to boil, especially when the pot's base is around 8" in diameter (maximizing the efficiency of heat transfer.) Only induction is significantly faster. BTW, much of the induction speed advantage is due to induction burner power being 3500 watts or greater. Move that 8" diameter pot over to a gas range and the time falls off significantly even on pro-style burners. So, CR can say the pro-style stove does not not perform as well as the low-end coil burner. But, consider the pot being used for the testing. Size may matter. On my old coil burner range years ago, it took my tall stock pot (with the roughly 7½" disk base) a little over 15 minutes to boil, IIRC. (This is from memory -- I ran that test back around the turn of the century when this forum was still on the owlcroft site, so the results have dropped off the retrievable radar of google and etc.) Anyway, same pot and same quantity of water now takes around 22 minutes or so on the 15k btu burners on my current stove, a pro-style NXR. CR says the NXR is average for time to boil, which maybe implies that the NXR's larger-diameter, higher powered gas burners are a waste of money? Well . . . no. The relatively slow speed to boil is mostly due to the size of the NXR burners and their being better suited to pots with bigger diameters. A full power flame goes out beyond the base of that disk-bottom stock pot with a lot of it just creating waste heat. Same quantity (and temp) of water in my 10" diameter stockpot which is a better match to the full power flame size --- just under 15 minutes. With my 13" diameter canning kettle -- 14 minutes. Plus, my pots sit evenly and level on the stovetop grates which was not always the case with the old coil burner stove. Also, consider burner adjustments during cooking. Gas and induction burners allow you to adjust heat up or down much more quickly than with radiant electric and coil burners. That will be very important to some home cooks and not to others. (Heck, James Beard preferred coil burners to gas stoves and would not have a gas stove in his home. Julia Child ran many years of her shows using a coil burner cooktop. Of course, she had a Garland range at home.) If adjustability matters to you, you need to look beyond CR because their published ratings do not consider that as a factor. Now consider an alternate perspective on burner power. Do you like very high heat cooking? Your interest in a Culinarian implies that you do. In past threads here, owners of high powered Culinarians and Blue Stars -- stoves with 22k (and higher-powered) commercial-style open burners --- have scorned the 15k sealed, double stacked burners found on the likes of the NXR, DCS, and Wolf. I do not do the kind of cooking that I feel would benefit from those 22K open burners, but other folk here do feel the bigger burners are worthwhile to them. CR's seeming sneer at pro-style ranges totally diregards this kind of cooking preference. But, here is something I find ironic. Several years ago, when CR published a year end/holiday article reporting on what its employees wanted and were buying, guess what their employees said they wanted? They wanted Wolf ranges. Nobody there piped up and said "I want that $400 coil-burner range." Wish I could find the article but it seems to have been removed from accessibility. This is just a short way with a potentially very long list of subjects that could be considered, including service and support issues. Much of that is discussed in the threads I linked to above. Having read through them, you might well conclude that a pro-style range will not be worth it to you or maybe that it would be worth it after all.