i am looking forward to Cl Crimson Glory next year. i hope he will throw some good canes in the second year. Many roses that are listed as very fragrant are only mildly so here, so i was truly shocked by the intensity of his fragrance. Ahhhh more water. i will add another emitter on Compassion for the next season. MJS was on my shovel prune list, but then she got some robust fall health and gave the most beautiful blooms. her scent is very light and pure lemon to my nose.

I'm not surprised the scents are lacking. The oils and alcohols require humidity and still air to express and be detected in. 9b inland SoCal usually doesn't have much of either.

Interesting! I do NOT consider Fragrant Cloud to have an old-rose type scent in the least! To my nose, it's more a pungent, peppery/fruity scent. I'd say things like Crimson Glory and other similar blueing reds that are highly scented to be much closer to the traditional straight-up ROSE scent. Like Gertrude Jekyll and Bishop's Castle. They do not smell anything like Fragrant Cloud to me.

Steven

Agree with Steven about Fragrant Cloud not being damask-scented... not even close. It's an oddball for sure, and hard to describe the fragrance. Very strong, fruity, but with other things going on. I've never smelled another rose like it to compare it to. It's one of my favorite roses. Along with all of the OGRs mentioned, I'd say a lot of the Charles Mallerin/Crimson Glory/Mirandy descendents are pretty great examples of damask.

I'll second Fig's recommendation for Radiance -- actually I'll triple it!

I have three plants of Radiance; I purchased them own root from Vintage a long time ago. Maybe ten+ years? Anyway, this is a very distinctive rose:

It is always the first tea hybrid to bloom here, usually by the end of May.

It is usually the last one to bloom -- I still have a few buds developing as I type.

It never has what I'd call a big flush, but it is steady all summer.

The health is outstanding! It has the MOST beautiful dusty olive-green leaves and a very graceful plant habit. It shrugs off blackspot until the damp fall days and even then it isn't bad. I don't winter protect, and it dyes down to the ground every winter. However, it bounces back to about 24" every summer. All three are planted in sandy soil with a protected southern exposure.

The medium pink flowers are very very strongly scented of pure Damask. I love to cut a flower in bud and bring indoors to enjoy.

There are several sports that I know of: the original Radiance, Mr.s Charles Bell, Red Radiance (a deeper rose-pink), and Careless Love (a pink and white stripe) -- I've never grown this one.

Here's a reference: https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.5059.1&tab=1

Besides the strongly fragrant flowers, Radiance is worth growing for the lovely foliage.

It is truly one of a kind!

Kim it is always great to read your comments and learn from you. If you happen to see this post could you please tell me how would you describe the fragrance on Annie Laurie McDowell. I was lucky enough to be able to acquire a plant from Angel Gardens this year and I am so glad I did. I have not been able to pamper any of my roses this year and even ADR winners like Quick Silver have no leaves at this point. Annie Laurie McDowell is the most perfect little plant with spotless foliage no spray here. I have it in a pot for now, until we build our forever home in the near future. I have removed all the little buds over and over again this year, but I was dying to see the little blooms and let her keep a few last week. The blooms have a wonderful scent and I wonder which kind is it. Thank you in advance for any info you may provide. Thank you for such a wonderful rose!

Hi @dianela7analabama! Thank you! Congratulations on your ALmD! How neat you have her and get to enjoy her gorgeous foliage and delicious blooms! I hope her pot is simply nestled in that larger pot instead of being planted in it. That inward curved opening would make removing the root ball intact impossible. If you leave it in there, I would put something over the rim of the pot so wind moving the cane back and forth against it won't damage her cane as it hangs over the edge.

I've pulled apart many ALmD blooms to collect pollen so I've enjoyed her scent at "extract" levels. It's very sweet, but it also has the almost "skunky" bitterness in the back of my throat that R. multiflora possesses. The sweetness and bitterness in the back of my throat give it a nearly lilac quality. Lilac is my absolute favorite scent and has been from my earliest memories of flower scents. Others have added that is also possesses a "lavender" quality, which I don't detect, but other noses do. I would love for one of the Austin catalog writers to give it a sniff and describe that scent!

I also agree with recommendations for Radiance! J. Horace McFarland declared it a "World Rose", writing that "anywhere a man can comfortably live, Radiance can be well grown" way back in the 1930s. Breeders went nuts using it with many attempts to produce that foliage on a yellow version. It never happened. Its sports are well worth growing and Careless Love is my favorite of them because of the serendipity of its striping.

@rosesmi5a, @roseseek Radiance is STILL one of the best roses ever produced. I have NEVER needed to spray this rose here in Black Spot Central (ummm... can't say that for Knock Ouch, Home Runt, or...). I simply can't understand why it isn't more readily available. It has long been an aspiration of mine to collect all of its sports, but, alas, many are either extinct or just out of commerce. Sigh. Someone really dropped the ball.

I didn't know that the efforts to breed a yellow rose with R's perfect foliage had come up lacking, but if I'd thought about it, it's obvious. There just ain't a disease-free yellow out there, at least for this part of the country.

Kim, do you have any thoughts as to WHY Radiance is so tough, since it's the child of two early hybrid teas?

EDIT: These are the known sports of Radiance, from a post by San Jose Heritage Rose Garden on HMF. Several are no longer in commerce, three are thought to be extinct ('Dixie', 'Adolphe Gude', and 'Mary Nish').

Notes by Fred Boutin on the 'Radiance' family, by date.

'Radiance', J. Cook, 1904, Intr. P. Henderson 1908

'Red Radiance', A. N. Pierson, Inc., 1916 [mh: Later withdrawn]

"Gude Bros. 'Red Radiance'", Gude Bros. 1916, darker than Pierson's, both light crimson

'Mrs. Charles Bell', Mrs. Charles Bell, intr. A. N. Pierson, 1917. Red Radiance sport.

'Striped Radiance', Vestal, 1919, Red Radiance sport. Red Radiance with white stripes.

'Dixie', W. R. Gray, 1925. Red Radiance sport but more double, salmon pink, very lasting. Resembles Mrs. Charles Bell but more double, deeper salmon, more cupped. Elmer offered this.

'Radiance, climbing', 1926, intr. 1928, Griffing

'Red Radiance, climbing', Pacific Rose Co., 1927

'Mary Nish', ('White Radiance'), Pacific Rose Co., 1928. White, tinted shell pink in center. Very large, dbl, frag. Foliage rich green, soft, glossy.

'Red Radiance, climbing', H. J. Catt, NSW, Australia, 1929

'Mrs. Charles Bell, climbing', Thomasville Nurseries, 1929

'Grand Prize', Kistler, 1935, pat. 183. Red Radiance sport. Very large, dbl, cupped, very fragrant. Some petals red, some white, some spotted.

'Adolphe Gude', Gude, 1941, pat. 462. Red Radiance sport. Large, 5 1/2 to 6 inches. dble, 30 ptls, frag., clear rose-pink, reverse deep rose-pink.

'Mary Carver', Chick, 1950. Red Radiance sport. Bud globular, fl very large, 5 inches, very double, 80 petals, cupped, very frag., shell-pink. Blooms all season in Australia.

'Careless Love', Conklin, intr. Golden State, 1955, pat. 1582. Red Radiance sport. Red streaked and splashed white or pink. Not reliably fragrant.

'Mrs. James G. Penny', Joseph W. Vestal & Son, date???. Sport of 'Radiance'.

Thank you all for your posts about Radiance. I enjoy reading garden books published before 1950 or so, be it essays, mostly photos, encyclopedic -- really any --- and Radiance (and sports) is often mentioned when roses are brought up. So I've always wondered about it. Y'all have convinced me that this needs to be near the top of my wish list!

@RedBird_7a EastTN I don't know where in E TN you live (I'm SW of Knoxville), but you should be living with the same strains of black spot that I do. So Radiance should be...radiant...for you.

@fig_insanity Z7b E TN I'm in Blount County, so black spot is alive and well here. I don't have a ton of roses (yet!) but some get it a lot worse than others. I'm really looking forward to ordering Radiance!

@fig_insanity Z7b E TN I have grown Radiance, Mrs. Charles Bell (Shell Pink Radiance), Red Radiance and Careless Love. They were marvelous and only Red Radiance was without RMV as it came from a Greenmantle British import. The others were what were commonly grown in public and private gardens in the 1980s. Only Red Radiance was budded and they all grew and flowered like weeds. Armstrong Roses offered them budded in their catalog through the mid to late 1970s. Arena offered Cl Radiance the short time they were in business. Of course Vintage sold them, and Burlington had them on her 2020 list (Radiance, Red Radiance and Mrs. Charles Bell). I've not seen her 2021 list, but she's worth a try. I would grow Careless Love in a heart beat as I want to use Radiance in breeding with several species, I'm limited for room and water and Careless Love is my preferred version of the line so why no use it instead? RVR lists them but not in stock. You could push them to produce them and you might even luck out and receive the right rose from them, or not. RU doesn't list them. ARE is sold out of Radiance. Rose Petals is sold out of Radiance and Red Radiance. A Reverence for Roses is sold out of Radiance and doesn't list the others. But, why would any other nurseries list any of them now? They aren't advertised by anyone like the Austins, Kordes, Meilland, etc. "brands" are so there is no pull from the buying market. They don't resemble the "Austin look" like so many of the others do. They aren't covered by any patents so there aren't greater than normal monies to be made from producing them and no one is pushing for them to be produced to generate those royalties, etc. You can have the healthiest, most fragrant, easiest to grow rose in the world and unless it is NEW and advertised like crazy, it will fall out of favor/fashion and disappear. So many really GOOD ones already have, but the ones you listed will remain with us for years simply because it pays to hype them, until their protections expire.

How did Radiance come to be as good as it is? The luck of the draw. If you look at its ancestry, it probably shouldn't be as it's rather "incestuous". Lady Mary Fitzwilliam appears in the lineage of three of its four grandparents. Fitzwilliam produced some great roses but there was nothing about it that was remarkable. The fourth grandparent was unknown. Could it have been due to that parent? Who knows? Sometimes the genes align just right and good things result. The really sad part is, Radiance is the only first generation descendant of either parent left so the "why" is impossible to determine as there aren't other lines against it to compare. Radiance led to Gruss an Coburg, Ma Perkins. Ma Perkins led to Dame Prudence and Wife of Bath and Gene Boerner.

Ma Perkins and Gene Boerner are good roses and have led to many decent results but still nothing "remarkable". Wife of Bath led to 38 Austin roses by the third generation and Bolero by the fourth. Pretty results but "remarkable"? Just the "luck of the draw", but obviously a good one!

Wonderful information regarding Radiance and its genuine adaptability, It's important for US to spread the word about great roses that aren't promoted newest and patented and all that.

I love threads regarding fragrance as well.

Kim- you touched on Arena Roses. I ordered from them several times and was always blown away by the size and quality of their plants. Whatever happened to Syl and his nursery? Did they succumb to the market depression in 2008, or was it something else? I haven't been able to find out and I do miss them.

Steven

@dianela7analabama - it's my first year with ALMcD also. I love the way the new leaves look so velvety, and the look of the new growths. Unfortunately I almost killed it in a hot dry spot in my yard and I'm pampering it in a pot now. One of the quirky things I've noticed about it, at least in my climate, is when it grows new canes, all the old leaves turn yellow and spotty and fall off. It has done this three times this summer. To me the fragrance is hyacinth, but I could see how a nose could consider it to be lilac. I hope it survives the winter. It's in the middle of growing new canes now, but we are supposed to get frost this week.

Syl is a funny, nice gentleman and he did produce some very nice plants. His family was in agriculture but his education was graphic design. He was personally involved in EVERY facet of his business, from production, marketing, photography, printing...you name it, and he WAS the face and voice of Arena Roses. Unfortunately, you can't be EVERYTHING to EVERYONE and get anything taken care of. Customers, wholesale and retail, were used to picking up the phone and "talking to Syl", so when he put people in place to handle the phones, the customers rejected them. He took the photos for the catalogs and he was personally involved in all the color separations used to print them. Of course, they are GORGEOUS. I've kept them for reference and enjoy looking at them when I run across them. I've been told each edition cost him upwards of a quarter million dollars to produce...and he GAVE them away. I walked the fields with him and Paul Zimmerman and heard him speaking of the "laser leveling" he had done to make sure the fields were level for the flood irrigation, and how displeased he was with the dry areas which weren't level and prevented the irrigation to spread out and wet the soil in the dead areas. He had the fields ripped deeper than traditional to insure good drainage, and even that wasn't done properly as evidenced by the veins through the fields where water refused to penetrate and the roses growing across and on them died. I also got to hear him speak of experimenting with treating his fields with mycorrhizae fungi (and how many thousands it cost him) in hopes of producing "the best", and how he found he could find NO difference between the same varieties produced in the treated and untreated fields. He kept mother blocks of virus indexed Fortuniana, multiflora and Huey for root stock plants and stopped the age-old practice of using the tops of last year's budded stocks to root for this year's crop, the very practice that spread virus through the US rose crops so rapidly. And, that was before anyone else in Wasco was practicing that. I know he went out of his way to obtain clean and interesting roses to produce and keep them clean, which is why it angered me as it did when he was blamed for "infecting" the Sombreuil he produced by customers on the Garden Web forums at the time. Something which had been passed around "like a social disease" from one grower to bud to the next was considered his fault, after he had budded it to VI stock.

He and the gentleman he hired to manage his fields, decided to create a "rose museum" on leased land in Paso Robles where both of their families were living. When that panned out, they went into a vineyard idea. He was hit hard by the "creeping black death" much of the Arizona produced plants were afflicted with that caused them to not break dormancy but simply turn black. Unlike too many, instead of questioning and requiring proof, he told all of his nursery clients and his customer service people answering the phones to refund or replace per the customer's choice, no questions asked. That was a huge financial hit for him.

Syl was one of the early adopters of not shoveling money into David Austin's pockets. He entered licensing agreements with Poulsen to bring their landscape and Guillot for their Generosa varieties. Had he not brought them in, we wouldn't have had all of those lovely Poulsen landscape types so early. Some were really rather spectacular. I wish they were more readily available now. His offering the Generosa provided us with alternatives to the "British invasion".

Arena was pretty much defunct by 2006, a bit earlier than J&P and their destruction of Week's, but still suffered from many of the same business ills which manifested themselves in the later collapse. The difference was, Arena wasn't as well capitalized as J&P and Week's. Syl unwisely tried to do it all and be everything to everyone, leaving him too little time and ability to handle what he needed to handle. And, he spent money as if he had it, probably unwisely, but he answered several questions which appear worthwhile answering. Perhaps not at that cost, but... He did try and on several fronts, he succeeded. I can't think of anyone who knew him who didn't love him, myself included. I've not encountered him in some years.

I also remember him laughing over lunch on one trip over how customers DEMANDED "yards-long roots" on the bare roots, thinking that the longer the roots, the "higher quality" the plant and how he would "pull a plant" from the fields, cut the tops and roots back to stubs, take it home, plant it and it would explode. Overly long roots really only adding cost to harvesting and shipping. As long as the plant is stored properly and not allowed to dry out in storage,in shipping nor after planting, root length meant nothing. Success is mostly a function of whether the plant had dried out or not.

Funny that's something I constantly see posts about (particularly on Facebook rose pages) where planted roses "fail to thrive" and photos show dried out plants. I wish more was made about mounding newly planted bare roots. I used to buy the "dead" bare roots from varieties I wanted from work for pennies on the dollar, take them to the garden and either bury them under soil for a week or so then mound them or simply plant and mound them. It was fun taking bouquets of the "dead roses" to work I'd bought for fifty cents and rehydrated.

Kim, thank you, thank you, thank you so much for sharing. I ordered back in 2003-2005 years from Arena.

He truly sounds like someone that wants to approach things the way I would like to if given the chance- best quality, do everything and be involved EVERYWHERE even though that stretches one or one's business too thin. What a godsend to the world of roses he IS.

What you've share with us here gives me the deepest sense of respect for Syl Arena and all of the efforts, great plants produced, and heartache he surely endured.

The amount of detail and information you've so generously given to us really puts the emotion into what transpired.

It's a tale of a beautiful tragedy that plays out like a great novel.

Steven

Thanks, Steven. It gave me a chance to remember (and relive) some fun times! I honestly wish he'd had more business direction so he may have stayed around longer. Imagine what might have been had he been able to distribute even more Poulsen roses and perhaps expand into Delbard and Tantau offerings. It appears he's active on Twitter and has gotten back into his photography, if you're interested in Twitter. (I'm not)

That's great to hear, Kim!

The possibilities to imagine are nearly limitless, aren't they!

This might be surprising, but as a (relatively) young person, I have exceptionally little interest in (anti)social media. I actually deleted/eliminated FB about a year ago now. Most of the stuff is garbage and having to wade through it all just isn't for me at all! *grins*

Your experiences and knowledge never cease to amaze!

Steven

Wow Kim, thanks so much for sharing that about Arena. They were one of my very top fave vendors back in the 2000s, and i ordered tons of roses from them. I started being a rose fanatic in 1998, and the changes I've observed in vendors since then has been amazing. Arena, Vintage, Uncommon, Pickering, etc.: their loss is huge, for me and the rose world.

I understand your points about social media, Steven, and I agree. However, if you want to see what is happening in the "rose world" today, that's where you need to be, like it or not. What's happening on the various pages there leaves this, the RHA and National Gardening Association in the dust. There is currently a discussion on the RHA about what to do to draw some of the hybridizing activity on FB back to the RHA. I'm there begging people to post photos to HMF of roses included in the database but not pictured. There is a lot wrong with it, yet there is a LOT of value there as long as you protect your privacy and expose yourself only to what you wish to be exposed to. It's where you can see the new offerings from various sources around the world; new seedlings being observed from various breeders; garden ideas; problems and discoveries all in "living color" and get nearly immediate responses to questions, good or bad. I move through the rose pages (obviously) as well as specialty pages for goodies such as Operculicarya, orchids, bonsai, hibiscus and quite a few others. And, all in "living color"!!

I agree, Susan. Too much has been lost and too much will never be regained.

roseseek....I used FB so much early on and many years, but over the last 3 years FB has become sooooooo difficult. It takes so long to load that I need a cup of coffee, breakfast and lunch before I can see anything! Then if I ask a question or want to see responces to posts on pages, it is lost in the tons of new posts used to "keep it fresh," but my FB will only load 5-6 posts before it times out and I need to bake a cake while I wait for it to see the next 5-6 posts.

I think the reality is that plants are being sold based on social media exposure, since magazine, TV, radio and many other outlets are just not used as much. But I wonder if roses are really competing with other plants, even though there are so many who keep trying to remind the public that "roses are easy." Love to hear your thoughts on that!

Of course, I am really new to buying and planting roses (I have grown what my grandmother bought for years and years.) I had just started to go to nurseries/ garden centers when our state lockdown for Covid and roses have been very difficult to find locally and only carried in Spring. I have ordered roses, but few "new releases." I love reading the thoughts and ideas of more experienced rose gardeners!

@ann beck 8a ruralish WA that's a shame. It sounds as if you're using a phone to access it. I only use the laptop so there are notices for any responses or comments on anything I've commented on, asked or am following. It's too bad your signal is diluted as it sounds. It seldom expresses any loading issues here.

Kim, I had suspected as much. I'm staunch enough to stick with my choice to avoid extra social media unless I were a breeder or needed to know because despite whatever the truth may be with where the world is going, I'd rather go without. If it *requires* technology I believe something crucial is lost. I am in that special group of people that were children as things like computers, internet, and smartphones came into being. I know enough of what it was like before, and I like it even though technology has made things very convenient and fast. I grew up in cars without all the electronic doo-dads and gee-gaws that people dare claim are essential (both safety and entertainment wise), no air conditioning, some with carburetors, houses with no central air, and the like. My grandparents were from the Silent Generation and they were/are my special family and they are heavily influential in my life. There are things that truly mark those like me as people from the period of Great Technological Transition, and I also know I am not alone.

Steven

Roseseek...actually I use a laptop...my husband's phone works slightly better, but not enough to bother with facebook....It seems you are able to get a lot out of it and enjoy the connections you get....that's wonderful! I am not anti-tech. just frustrated that the monetizing changes have made it so difficult for me, but I am certainly not at your level and never likely to be, so glad it works for you.

Steven...I have read several articles on the benefits of not using technology like dishwashers and a/c or even a furnace. My husband bought an old truck so he could actually work on it without having to deal with a computer chip in it and it was really fun to introduce the boys to rolling down a window. (It also the mulch truck.) Of course, I think the best thing about any phone technology it that I can have people leave voice mail or text, that I can answer later....but we have had that for years and years.

That's fine and totally valid for you. I am simply sharing that information and interaction is available should you wish to access it.

Just saw these last few posts - so glad to hear that I am NOT the only person in the world who:

1) Prefers using one of our two land line telephones, because they are just telephones, and one of them (the one which is NOT connected to the internet) actually kept working when cell phones and internet phones and all of the electricity was not working during a power outage engineered by PG&E.

2) Has two stoves in the kitchen, one of which is so old it has a standing pilot, which is great for many things (like raising bread dough, warming plates, etc), AND also works during power outages because it does not have the "safety" electric starter - so I was the only person I knew who had an oven which worked.

3) Avoided putting in the "wonderful new" technology which gives you "instant on" hot water, so we had plenty of hot water from our normal type hot water heater (gas), when several of my friends had only COLD water during the power outage, and also did not have any backup storage of water, in case that went out too because of electric pumps failing.

4) Prefers driving a car which cannot be taken over by hackers (if they can take over everything else in your house or computer, why not a new "self driving car") so they can hold you for ransom?

5) Has always avoided FB like the plague, and the more I hear about it, the more I feel that way.

I use a PC happily, and of course it has an amazing amount of info on it for researching any topic, and email is very handy. However, I do not carry a smart phone with me everywhere I go, or sleep with one close enough to be awakened constantly by nonsense "alerts" about possible wind events, etc. Going out Christmas shopping later today, as accd to the news it is useless to try and order anything for Christmas by now as you are too late, but I still know (and enjoy) how to shop in actual stores!

Jackie

@roseseek, @fig_insanity, I'm resurrecting an older thread here, but I've spent an embarrassingly large amount of time on Google looking for an answer, with nothing to show for it but a hunch. Here's my question: how similar is the scent of rugosa roses to the "old rose"/damask scent? Are they the same? Extra credit if anyone can specifically compare the damask fragrance to Rosa rugosa 'Hansa'.

I've gotten the impression that they're similar, but rugosa roses are more of a spicy "clove" scent. I have 'Hansa' in my yard and it's a fantastic fragrance, but I've never (knowingly) smelled a true damask scented rose to make a comparison. (I know...i need to get out more....haha). Thanks for any guidance!

-Mike

This is a great thead. I have always loved the damask scent and linked it to classical rose scent but I also love the ”modern” fruity and spicy types. There were no damask scented roses in my garden. Then I bought a Tiffany which turned out to be mislabeled. I planted a zephirine d in May. It is still small and has not budded yet. Tiffany is still in my wish list

The other day I was talking to a friend who was tryng to make a dessert that her mother used to make. No matter what she did, her sister said that it wasn’t quite right. it should be taller. it should be fluffier. it should be sweeter, or less sweet. My friend finally realized that it never would match the dessert of her sister’s memory because the dessert had reached mythic status, and there was no way to recreate a dessert that matched that unattainable memory. That’s how I see people describing ”old rose” scent. I’ve been to many rose gardens and sniffed many, many old roses, as well as rose perfumes new and old, rose essential oils and attars, rose water, and rose extracts. Old roses have a great variety of fragrance and strengths. I came to the conclusion that there is no one ”old rose scent”, only the mythic “old rose” scent of memory and imagination. It can be whatever you want it to be.

@noseometer...(7A, SZ10, Albuquerque), I definitely get your point, but I'm not much of a rose expert. I just don't know if there's a distinct difference between a damask scent and whatever rugosa scent is called (clove?). I don't have anything known to be "damask-ish" available to compare for myself. If they're really similar then yeah, it's a distinction without a difference.

Funny you should mention desserts and roses...my question came up because of a discussion surrounding my Greek grandmother's rose petal jam recipe, which I make using my beloved 'Hansa' roses. The original bush belonged to her. Someone was suggesting that it's not the actual "damask" rose scent. I was just looking for some reassurance that I hadn't been unknowingly misled by my grandmother. I figured it was close enough for her, but that got me wondering if there really is a difference.

Ah. I see what you are asking. I was responding more to the original question of this thread regarding ”old rose” fragrance. To answer your question, I’ve sniffed a number of damasks, such as Celsiana, Madame Hardy, and Ispahan. I’ve also sniffed many rugosas, including Hansa, Blanc Double de Coubert, Therese Bugnet, etc. Not all rugosa hybrids have fragrance (i.e. Linda Campbell, the Grootendorst varieties), but the ones with a clove fragrance are definitely not the same as the damask. I don’t remember Hansa in great detail, but if I remember correctly, the clove aspect is present but not predominant. Still, not quite the same as the damask roses I’ve sniffed, at least not to my nose. I bet your rose petal jam is just as delicious though.

@Mike L "Damask" is often the scent associated with a highly scented dark red rose. Autumn Damask, considered to be "The Rose of Castile" possesses that scent. It is also the scent of Dove Beauty Bar "rose scent". The next time you're in the store, take a sniff of Wizard American Beauty Rose scented "air freshener", if they still make that. It used to be "Damask" scent. That smell is what is associated with many cosmetics and even Rosary Beads as the oils from Damask roses were used to scent cosmetics and flavor foods and the beads were made from the petals and scented with the oil. Even that can be confusing as few roses are solely "Damask" scented and often express other scent elements as the flowers age and elements of the oils and alcohols comprising the scents evaporate and express themselves. "Rugosa", as has been mentioned, is highly "clove" scented. Very often, when those genes are combined with others, that scent is diluted or even eliminated so if you want to experience it, stuff your nose in types the closest to the "originals" as possible. That is the best I can come to translating those scents into words. I hope it helps.

I am glad to see people writing about the scent of older hybrid teas (and newer, too, now that breeders are paying attention to scent). All the books I read in my youth, before I had a garden of my own, praised Crimson Glory -- I always wonder if the color enhances the reception of the fragrance in the brain, by telling it what to expect. A really empirical test of fragrance might be a blind one. But on the other hand, it seems that color really may enhance perception, and so do memories and associations -- so - it's all in the brain, or mostly.

Personally, for me, as far as the old roses, I have a special affection for the scent of the Bourbon roses, which are a true mix of east and west. But the really old roses do have a distinctive appeal. Some like Ispahan and Rose de Rescht have powerful carrying fragrances in the right circumstances. I think it helps to have them planted in groups. They seem more fragrant in other people's gardens than my own postage stamp, that's for sure.

Ispahan is a Damask, highly scented with likely a Damask scent and RdR is described on HMF as possessing a "Strong, damask fragrance."

I have to say when I smelled Memorial Day at her best I thought this must be what the perfect damask rose smells like. Then I visited the rose garden in Berkely where they had the real damask rose…it didn’t smell nearly as wonderful or strong as Memorial Day , I was so disappointed!

@noseometer...(7A, SZ10, Albuquerque)...thank you! That is exactly the kind of info I was looking for. My wife did buy a jar of "authentic" middle Eastern rose petal jam once, but it had something in it that ruined the flavor for me. pectin? Lemon juice to activate the pectin? Who knows..but it was acidic, unlike what I grew up with. But behind that citrus aspect, the basic flavor wasn't all that different from mine. My grandmother kept it in the fridge to keep it thick. Just sugar, water, and rose petals. It didn't stick around long enough to go bad.

@roseseek, thanks for the comparison ideas! I really appreciate it. That's a lot cheaper than renewing my expired membership at Longwood Gardens! The Japanese beetles are just about done having their way with my second flush of flowers, so I might be able to do an actual side-by-side. But your description definitely helps.

I know it's like asking someone what "blue" looks like. But thank you all for putting me in the ballpark.

To my nose, many rugosas like Hansa have a spicy-clove scent overlaid on a base of very sweet, intense damask-like rosiness. So I would say Hansa does smell very damask-like but which an extra element of delicious complexity.

I agree with Chris. I would think that the rose jam made from Hansa would be extra delicious, adding richness and spiciness that a pure damask doesn't have. Similar to BenT’s experience, before I ever smelled a pure damask, I thought that Mr. Lincoln/Chrysler Imperial were damask scented. They are not. They are much richer and deeper than Ispahan. Damask scent is a lighter, clearer scent. So I would expect your jam to be really wonderful. I wish that I could taste it!

Just added Mister Lincoln to my wish list

Thank you, monarda, for a useful characterization of the Bourbon scent: "...I have a special affection for the scent of the Bourbon roses, which are a true mix of east and west". I have recently noticed, now that I am growing six different varieties of Bourbons, that they do have very similar scents that are quite distinct from both the damask roses I have and the modern varieties. I am also quite fond of that scent!

@noseometer...(7A, SZ10, Albuquerque) if you can find a Hansa bush somewhere (any clove scented rugosa would work, but Hansa is fully double), just roughly chop up one cup petals (fairly packed down, and after pinching off the white tips - my grandmother said the white part makes it bitter, but i don't have the patience to get them all... Never noticed a problem), add to 1 cup of water. Bring to a boil for 15 or 20 minutes (stir to keep all the petals immersed until they wilt and sink). Add 1 cup of regular white granulated sugar. Continue to boil and stir until the temperature reaches 219 F (you'll have to adjust for your elevation). You'll have to reduce the heat as you get closer to the temperature. That should get it to the right consistency after it cools and after it's refrigerated. That's it. 1-1-1, petals-water-sugar, all by volume. It doesn't really set, but it should get thick enough to use as a spread. Stores in the freezer a good long time.

@Mike L

Thanks for sharing this simple and yummy rose jam recipe! I don't have Hansa but will try using Roseraie de l'Hay and Wild Edric.

@seasiderooftop, you're very welcome! The first time I had it I was 6 years old, and we were visiting my mom's sister. It's a unique flavor (even if it's not - as I now know - a true Mediterranean damask flavor) and it always takes me back to a simpler time. People had to make do with what they had. She also had an enormous apricot tree. There was nothing better than unlimited fresh apricots for breakfast!

@Mike L Thanks for the recipe! I’m looking forward to trying it. unfortunately I don‘t have a Hansa but maybe I could try it with Ispahan or Evelyn or Bishop’s Castle…

An old Huntington Library garden volunteer used to make Cecile Brunner rose petal jelly. She had her mother's Cl Mlle Cecile Brunner and she used the pink petal parts to flavor the jelly. She reported the white bases added bitterness to the product. The results were a slightly brownish-pink jelly with a currant flavor and the after taste of the Cecile Brunner scent. She would arrive at volunteer work days with small jars of her jelly and we would all hurry home to begin enjoying her creation.

Mike, what a lovely and easy recipe. I wish I had petals to use to try it.

@Stephanie, 9b inland SoCal

I can't think of a better reason to expand your rose collection! Maybe you can find someone with a damask or clove scented rose and bribe them...a small jar of jam in exchange for a cup or two of petals

There IS an "old rose scent". Roses express it in many permutations, that is, with different additions of other scents in more or less quantity. The old rose with the purest "old rose scent" that I have experienced is unidentified from an Indiana farm that was passed down through a number of generations. I gave a rooted cutting to Christopher. I hope that it survived. I am not adept enough at rose classification to say what class it belongs to. It is a once bloomer, medium to light pink, button eye, with about a 2" diameter flower. It is true that the perception of scent differs from person to person yet anyone I have seen who has smelled this rose has been enchanted.

I have grown Tiffany, Fragrant Cloud, Blanc Double de Coubert, Rose de Rescht, Reine des Violettes, Souvenir de Claudius Denoyel, Crimson Glory, Chrysler Imperial, Munstead Wood, Proud Land, Autumn Damask (pink), Comte de Chambord, Jacques Cartier, Zephrin Drouhin, etc. and sniffed wild rugosa roses on a beach (clove scent, wonderful but not "old rose").

Also, I have noticed that many of the c. mid 20th century roses with decent "old rose scent" such as Crimson Glory and Chrysler Imperial develop a less pleasing scent as they age. Does anyone else sense this as well?

Cath

P.S. If you really want to smell the "old rose" scent, buy a vial of true attar of roses. Put the stopper right up to your nose. That medicinal scent is not it. No rose has a scent that concentrated. Then slowly move the stopper away from your nose in increments. You will know it when you smell it.

It's very strange, but with all the roses I've grown the two whose scent I remember most clearly, and that I long to smell again, are two relatively obscure roses, Suzanne, a hybrid spinosissima, and Lawrence Johnston, a hybrid foetida climber. I remember sitting on a bench somewhere (Sacramento, UC Berkeley Rose Garden?, who knows) and smelling over and over again what to me was an almost wild rose fragrance of Suzanne, and a similar experience with Lawrence Johnston, which at least is considered to be a fragrant or strong-smelling rose. There's a mystery to what calls out to us most strongly and what we remember many decades later as something unforgettably beautiful and special.

I have no idea what type of scent these two have but Dames de Chenonceau and Roberto Capucci are my most fragrant scents