Gaggenau 400 series or wait for Miele 7000 series for new appliances

2 years ago

last modified: 2 years ago

Given the ridiculously long lead time for custom cabinets and appliances these days, we're designing our kitchen remodel now but realistically won't start construction until Q1/Q2 of 2022. Our cabinets have a 20 week lead time so we're getting some pressure from our designer to select appliances ASAP, so we can finalize our cabinet design and get them in production.

We love Gaggenau's freedom induction cooktop and the hidden heating element/self clean feature in their CSO. We don't, however, love the crazy high prices which are significantly more than what we budgeted for new appliances for our kitchen remodel. The MSRP for the 30" CSO alone is $9,899 for 2.1 cf of interior space!

Hubby thinks a better option is to wait for Miele's M-touch 7000 series to launch in the US, but waiting means delaying our cabinet order. Also, there's no ETA for when the appliances will be available for order in the US. Currently we've got our eyes on Miele's new freedom induction cooktop, 36" integrated automated smart hood, and XXL CSO. While we're not fans of the exposed heating element that makes the CSO hard to clean, it offers a whopping 2.5 cf of interior space at a (relatively) affordable price.

We bought Miele's 7000 series M-touch d/w last fall and love it! However, we've recently noticed a strange haze/film in our tub despite the fact we only use AutoDos in our machine. Based on advice from a rep at our local Miele experience center, I ran both the d/w conditioner and descaler this week but it didn't resolve the issue. Then today it made a strange loud noise during the saniwash cycle -- luckily the d/w came with a 5-year factory warranty! In addition to our Miele d/w, we have a 5 yo 30" SZ fridge that we're not replacing.

We'd like to replace our 14 yo 30" Wolf DF range and 28 yo 30" Broan hood with a 30" induction cooktop, 36" fan and CSO. The CSO will be our only oven other than a XL Breville/Wolf countertop convection oven and small countertop m/w. The only time we use our range oven is when we cook bacon, pizza (on a stone), or when we roast vegetables. We rarely use our range oven to cook beef or chicken as we use our Breville oven or our outdoor grill to cook our proteins. We have a Weber gas grill that we use almost year-round here in Northern California.

We decided against a speed oven because we often use our Breville oven and m/w at the same time to reheat/cook different components for the same meal. And quite frankly, we're not fans of built-in appliances since they're more difficult to repair/replace. We often cook/reheat casseroles and frozen foods in our Breville.

These appliances are for our forever home (both semi-retired). We cook and eat almost all of our meals at home. We love to entertain (typically 2-3 couples in addition to us), but rarely host large holiday gatherings in our home. We're the third owners of our home and the two prior owners were a single person and a couple.

I'd appreciate hearing from those of you who researched both Miele and Gaggenau and decided on Gaggenau's 400 series over Miele. I'd also love to hear from recent Miele appliance owners who also considered Gaggenau - now that you've lived with your appliances do you have any regrets on choosing Miele over Gaggenau?

Thanks in advance for sharing your research and insights! I'm tagging some folks that have commented on related strings on this topic and hoping they respond!! @opaone, @alexmax, @Pignolia, @TXGuy.

Featured Answer

TXGuy

2 years ago

last modified: 2 years ago

@Julie K Thanks for tagging me...I was unaware of this new release from Miele.

First, a few caveats about my comments. I haven't researched any induction cooktops at all because I plan to use gas. I strongly desire a plumbed CSO, which narrows the brands and models I've looked at, and I'm also very enamored with the side-swing door offered by Gaggenau, Thermador, and perhaps others (but definitely not Miele or Wolf). Although I've done a lot of research, I have limited hand-on experience with any of these items, and I've never actually used them to cook (or any other CSO for that matter). And finally, I am doing a new build and we're still at the design stage, so I'm a ways off from making final appliance selections, but I'm already being asked questions about sizes and placement, so need to make some tentative but well-informed decisions now. So take my thoughts appropriately in light of those things.

While I agree that there are some dependencies on appliance selection, I would think that this would have minimal impact on your cabinet selections. You know the rough size of the cutout for any cooktop, and in my (singular) past experience, they don't need the final size until very close to delivery. As for the oven, once you select between 24 and 30 inch widths you will know the width of the cutout you need, and you'll have a very good idea of the height, and the variance in the height should be adjustable my making the trim piece(s) above/below the oven slightly bigger or smaller, so it seems those could be fabricated shortly before delivery, too.

I looked at the new Miele 7000 series on UK and NZ sites. Converting the price of the top-end CSO to USD yields a price of $7630 (based on UK pricing) or $9000 (based on NZ pricing). I'm not sure where the US price will fall, but Miele may narrow the pricing gap with Gaggenau. I'm pretty sure the Gaggenau will still be more expensive, but it may not be as big of a factor.

The sleek top and self-cleaning features are very nice, and I like the Gaggenau's approach to controls as well as its overall aesthetics. However, I really like the design of the new Miele, and the limited view of the controls I saw in "The Good Guys" video looks somewhat Gaggenau like...so that's a plus for me. The Miele's wireless temperature probe is certainly nice. I'm not sure how effective their dual steam outlet system is vs a single outlet system. However, I seem to remember that Gaggenau is already using a dual outlet system. However, I am unable to find anything that confirms or refutes that at the moment. I am not sure how I feel about Miele venting steam to the outside vs condensing it inside the unit. However, the plumbed Miele may use a different approach. Oh, the LED lights in the Miele are nice as well; that is new for the Miele, but the Gaggenau already has LED lights.

As for the size difference between them, the extra .4 cu ft is significant -- nearly 20% larger. But with that said, I'm not sure that difference is important to me -- I can't think of many things that I could fit in the Miele but not the Gaggenau...most things I can come up with either fit in the Gaggenau or need a full-sized oven. One thing to consider regarding Miele is that some people have posted that the Miele pans are a touch too big to sit on their sinks, whereas the Gaggenau trays are standard hotel pan size and should sit on many sinks just fine. If you won't have another oven besides your countertop unit, that .4 cu ft may make a difference to you...you may be able to fit a couple of pounds more turkey/rib roast/whatever in, whereas I'd just switch to a regular oven.

Despite spending quite a while poking around for info, I'm not too sure of other changes that they've made. If you have a list it'd be great to see! Obviously the combi-microwave options are new and very significant, but if I read your post correctly, aren't really of interest to you. One other thing to consider with the Miele is that you'd be a relatively early adopter of the new model.

Sorry to hear about your dishwasher. I'm still rocking a 15 year old GE dishwasher that has been used and abused and has needed no service other than a $15 part, which I replaced myself. Sure, it is a bit noisy, but it works like a champ. Rarely do I need to rewash anything, and I don't pre-rinse, and also sometimes accumulate dishes before weeks before it's full enough to run. If my new unit (yet to be determined) perhaps as well I'll be very happy.

I have a Miele hood (also 15 years old) and absolutely love it. Unless they've gone backwards, that's a great selection. Their filters work very well and clean easily. The unit is pretty quiet on all but the highest speed. I absolutely love the delayed turn off feature -- I use it at least once a day. I can't imagine having a hood without that feature, and I'm quite surprised not everyone offers it.

I hope some of this is helpful, or at least thought provoking. I will certainly be following this thread, because there is a lot to like about the Miele CSO and I certainly haven't decided on the Gaggenau, although I am leaning in that direction at this time. An additional complicating factor for me is that whatever I get will be paired with a matching full-size (30") convection oven, so I'm looking at features and price across both units...the Gaggenau price premium becomes quite high when looking at 2 units! Even before the new model announcement, Miele would probably be my second choice despite the traditional doors, so this new model complicates my decision.

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Comments (77)

malabacat
2 years ago
Thank you HU-6868130! And Paul f those ovens look amazing. We won't need new appliances until next Sept/Oct so hopefully we'll be able to see the 7000 series in SF soon-ish and order them (assuming we like them better than the current options) when they are available in the spring.
Catherine Tchen
2 years ago
I've also been debating but love the hinge door by Gaggenau.... Does anyone know if there are any differences between the Thermador Freedom induction cooktop and the latest 36" Gaggenau? (since they are both part of Bosch) Thanks
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Julie K
Original Author
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
I don't like the interface/controls on Miele's induction cooktops. I have an appointment to test Wolf's new 30" induction range next week but this KM7999 unit below looks interesting!

https://www.miele.de/en/m/new-induction-hob-from-miele-combines-intuitive-touch-control-with-power-and-flexibility-5507.htm

Does anyone know when this interface will be available in the US and whether it will be offered in a 30" version? It look like a significant improvement over the current interface.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Miele/comments/p1f2jb/7999_induction_cooktops_coming_to_us/h8f2ca5/
Paul F.
2 years ago
Still no word on the 7000 series cooktop. I thought that there would be an announcement at the Consumer Electronic show the first week of January but because there was not I doubt that we'll see these arrive in the next few months. In the meantime anyone look into the hidden under-counter induction range? Looks amazing.

https://www.azuremagazine.com/article/invisible-induction-ciots-cooktop-revolution/
Scott Silverman
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
This thread has been a goldmine! We’re planning a new build right now and won’t need appliances delivered until Q1-2 2023 so have a little time. Our house will be full electric (trying for a passive house certification) so need induction, and we definitely want a plumbed-in steam oven.

For the steam oven we’re down to either the Gaggenau 400 series, or a Miele (would love the new 7000 series if possible). The big advantage of the Gaggenau is that it’s a full 30” whereas I don’t think Miele makes a plumbed 30” wide CSO, 24” only.

For induction we’re currently learning towards a 36” Wolf induction range (love the big single oven for larger events), though we’d also consider a cooktop instead instead of a range. For cooktops that new Miele 7000 looks pretty nice, and we’ve also been eyeing the Gaggenau 400 series induction range:

https://www.gaggenau.com/us/products-list/cooktops/400-series/vario-400-series/induction/VI492613

We’re planning to visit the Miele, Wolf, and Gaggenau showrooms here in NYC next month to try out some of these options in person.

PS – two other induction ranges still in the cards are the Aga Elise and the Bertazzoni Master Series. Both have physical knobs for the induction stove which is a nice plus:

https://agarangeusa.com/elise/ranges/product/aga-elise-36/color/white/model/36-induction

https://us.bertazzoni.com/products/master-series/ranges/36-inch-5-induction-zoneselectric-oven
Julie K
Original Author
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
OP here. I opted against the Gaggenau 400 induction cooktop after seeing a salesperson at Gaggenau's SoCal showroom struggling with the controls.

I opted against the Miele cooktop becausei hated the strange interface and ultimately ordered the new 30" Wolf induction range and a Wolf 36" 600 cfm low profile fan with remote inline blower. I ordered the range in late September 2021 (ETA early/mid June 2022) and ordered the hood this week (same ETA as range) .

I'm hoping the Miele 7000 series CSO launches in the US in time for our kitchen remodel. We're still in design but hope to start work in June. Otherwise we'll plan for the Miele and install it when it becomes available.
Scott Silverman
2 years ago
Thanks for the tip on the Gaggenau range. I downloaded the user manual and it does seem rather complicated. You felt the Wolf induction was easy to use though?

We’re still a bit partial to physical knobs, but I think trying them in person will help a lot.

Best of luck on your renovation!
Julie K
Original Author
2 years ago
The Wolf induction interface was far easier for me than Miele's controls. I tested and played with both in the showroom and preferred the Wolf!

I also took a big box of pots to the showroom to ensure the hob sizes/placement worked with my Demeyre pots and pans which I've owned for over 15 years.

Strongly suggest you spend time testing actual live, working units. Make sure they're connected and working and not just in demo mode.
Paul F.
2 years ago
The Miele 7000 induction range is coming out in the next 3 months.
Julie K
Original Author
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
@Scott Silverman, I tested the Gaggenau and Miele induction cooktops and Wolf induction range. I don't know if Miele's induction range has the same controls/interface as their cooktop as I didn't test a Miele induction range. Gaggenau only offers cooktops. Miele and Wolf offer both cooktop and slide-in range.
dan1888
2 years ago
Miele uses knobs on their current range. New appliances could be shown at the KBIS show February 8-10 in Orlando.
TXGuy
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
@Scott Silverman I just want to make sure you know that the Gaggenau 30" CSO has the same internal (i.e., useable) dimensions as the 24". The 30" just refers to the outer trim, which does make it nice for pairing with a Gaggenau 30" regular oven. I am still planning to get the Gaggenau CSO and regular oven, both in 30", for my build. I believe the to be better than the currently available Miele, although at a meaningful price premium. The forthcoming Miele looks nice and would make the decision harder, but I think I still prefer the Gaggenau.
malabacat
2 years ago
@Paul F. any news on if their new cooktops will be available also? I keep getting mixed messages on when the 7000 series will arrive. The SF showroom told me last week that the 7000 series would not be available until mid to late 3rd quarter. Yet Miele's website has the launch info as 2nd quarter.
Scott Silverman
2 years ago
@TXGuy Thanks I did not know that about the 30” Gaggenau CSO. They sure don’t make that obvious from their site, as I’ve been through almost every spec and doc I could find. We are designing a portion of our new cabinents around this oven and specially wanted the larger 30” cavity. Maybe the Miele is back in the running now!

@malabacat We’re visiting the Miele showroom in NYC in a few weeks and planning to ask about the 7000 cooktop. I would consider that one but not the current one from Miele. Will report back if I learn anything new.
TXGuy
2 years ago
@Scott Silverman I agree that they don't go out of their way to make this clear. You can see the interior dimensions of the 24" and 30" if you look at the detailed specification sheet under downloads (30" and 24"). If you are looking for a large cavity, I believe Bosch offers the largest, but they do not have a plumbed model. When considering cavity size, remember that a larger cavity will lead to slower heating (all other factors being equal).
Scott Silverman
2 years ago
@TXGuy thanks, we’re definitely looking for something that can be plumbed in. Wolf makes a 30” CSO too but it’s reservoir only.

Probably leaning towards the Miele at this point – the faster heating will be a nice benefit to trade for the smaller size. I was willing to pay the premium for the Gaggenau when I thought it was 30” wide but dont think i can justify nearly 2x the cost for better looks and slightly easier cleaning.
TXGuy
2 years ago
@Scott Silverman The 30" Wolf is the same cavity size as their 24" as well. I hear you on the Gaggenau price. I really like the side-swing door, but we'll see what I end up with when it's time to actually commit. I just found out that my refrigerator/freezer columns went up $7K since June...things like that have a tendency to make me rethink splurges.
ModernAdobe
2 years ago
@TXGuy what columns did you go with?
TXGuy
2 years ago
@ModernAdobe I'm pretty sure I'm going with the True 36" columns, but the delta between those and the SZ Classic 36" columns is now even bigger than when I originally "decided", so I may reconsider. The 2 True columns come to $26998 (and that's assuming the standard stainless finish and hardware -- it's an extra $2000 per unit for custom color and hardware), and the SZ pair would be "only" $19290. I really like the Trues, but are they worth an additional $7700?
ModernAdobe
2 years ago
Excuse my ignorance, are those Miele (true and SZ?)
I ordered Sub-Zero columns last week, learned yesterday that they have just updated them. Hoping for the new versions
TXGuy
2 years ago
@ModernAdobe No, neither are Miele. True is a brand that makes refrigeration products, both commercial and residential -- you can see their residential offerings here. By SZ I meant Sub Zero. Sorry for the confusion.

Can you elaborate on the updated columns? I haven't heard the details of this, and it may influence my decision. Which specific sizes and styles did you order? How do you plan to position them? I am planning to leave some space between my 2 columns as a "landing zone" for items coming in/out of the units.
ModernAdobe
2 years ago
TXGuy - heard from the showroom rep in Scottsdale that starting Monday 2/6 prices are going up yet again.
New features are going to include adjustable drawer temps and LED lighting. Same dimensions.
Attached is the email with my contact and the new sell sheet.

In our kitchen we are doing a 24” column freezer attached to the 36” fridge, attached to a 24” SZ wine fridge
ModernAdobe
2 years ago
SZ sell sheet
TXGuy
2 years ago
@ModernAdobe Thanks for the info. I can't make out the sell sheet (it is too small) but I will look for it online. I think the email you posted addresses most of the issues, though. Those sound like nice changes, for sure. I wonder what the range on the drawer temperature zone will be...it would definitely influence my decision if it allowed for a "pantry" temperature (~55 degrees) like the Fisher and Paykel units. And "more stainless" is one of the reasons I like the True (the True has an all stainless interior, and much more extensive use of stainless on the bins, drawers, and shelves). I just realized that is for the Designer series...I wonder if those changes will impact the other lines, like the Classic (which I personally prefer).

Your setup sounds nice. Integrating the 3 units is a sharp look!
kolo70
2 years ago
@txguy Fulgor is all stainless. Don’t know anything about this brand but for coming across this video https://youtu.be/ANzO-J6X-Lc
TXGuy
2 years ago
@kolo70 Thanks for sharing this link; I hadn't seen that video. Unfortunately, they don't offer columns. Also, the interior uses white aluminum, which I'd say is better than plastic but inferior to stainless.
ModernAdobe
2 years ago
Also, to add to the 7000 series Miele ovens discussion.
The no handle “art” look only comes in 30” for the speed and combi, also only in graphite gray.
I’m looking for a black and 24”.(My understanding is that the cavity size is the same between the 24” and 30”, correct?)

The only 24” for the steam and speed is the “vitro” line I believe.
ModernAdobe
2 years ago
@TXGuy - do you happen to know if Miele’s 24” width and 30” width 7000 ovens have the same interior cavity size. This info is not listed on their website.
TXGuy
2 years ago
@ModernAdobe The interior cavities are the same for the 24" and 30" models
Catherine Tchen
2 years ago
@TXGuy https://kbis.com/exhibitor-news/kbis-2022-fulgor-milano-to-launch-new-column-refrigeration/
TXGuy
2 years ago
@Catherine Tchen -- thanks! Those don't seem to be on their website yet, so this is good to know. Too bad they don't have a 36" freezer.
Julie K
Original Author
2 years ago
Has anyone seen the US specs for the new 7000 series CSO? If so would appreciate a link with the specs, thanks!
Leo M
2 years ago
Is this what you're looking for: Miele Spec Library
Julie K thanked Leo M
Julie K
Original Author
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
THANK YOU LEO!!! It looks like that's exactly what I need to pass to our kitchen designer!

In case it's helpful for others, Miele's Gen 7000 appears to be available in four design lines (PureLine, VitroLine, ArtLine and ContourLine) and three colors (graphite grey, obsidian black, brilliant white).
Karin W
2 years ago
@TXGuy the new SZ lets you set a slightly different temperature zone and humidity level for the interior drawers but only by a few degrees to give you flexibility depending on what kind of produce you're putting in there. They are not insulated so you wouldn't be able to set the fridge at 36 and the interior drawer at 55 for example. I'm familiar with the F/P pantry functionality and almost purchased for our new kitchen, but the unique cabinet size and lack of reviews worried me - if it failed, the only thing that would fit is another CoolDrawer. The new SZ line is quite snazzy, the interior lighting is spectacular. Huge overhear LED and more LEDs integrated into each of the shelves.
Karin W
2 years ago
Has anyone seen the Generation 7000 ovens in person? Miele Experience Center in Beverly Hills has one, it's the ArtLine version which as mentioned is only 30" and Graphite. I was hoping to see one with a handle, preferably white or blk/stainless. If you've seen one in Southern California, let me know! Would also be nice to see real life photos (rather than the ones in brochures or online).
ModernAdobe
2 years ago
@ Kerin W - do you know if these new SZ are now orderable? The website doesn’t seem to be updated with the new models. I ordered beginning of February. I wonder if I’m going to get the new or old??
kolo70
2 years ago
@Karin W - How do you like your CoolDrawer?
Karin W
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
@kolo70 We didnt end up ordering one. I saw one on display at a local Pirch showroom, and I really liked the concept, but it wasn’t meant to be. I found only two reviews online, both mentioned poor quality. I was willing to gamble, but then realized that if it didnt work out, I wouldnt be able to put anything else in it’s place due to the odd width of it. For that reason, we didn’t get one.
Karin W
2 years ago
@ModernAdobe that I am not sure. I would imagine if not yet, possibly very soon. If you’re able to wait for it, I highly recommend it rather than going with the older version. As you may know the styles dont change but every decade or so
Paul F.
last year
The Beverly Hills Miele experience manager is getting snippy when asked about the induction cooktop and is now saying it will be at least 3 years before that new induction cooktop comes out. She is aware of the online threads like this one and called it mostly 'misinformation'. Anything I posted here speculating about a release date is information directly from her Beverly Hills store. Miele announced the induction cooktop just short of 3 years ago and then has gone quiet on it since. I get that the pandemic supply chain issue but there should be some official response from the company on a release date by now other than from a cranky manager yelling it out of her office at my sales person. Rude.
HU-6868130
last year
I imagine unrelated but I took delivery of the Miele 7000 series coffee maker and combo-convection steam oven two weeks ago.
ModernAdobe
last year
HU-6868 - where did you order your appliances from? You are the first I’ve heard of taking delivery of the 7000 combi steam! What color?
Kelley Dockrey
last year
I'd read some reviews of True refrigeration units before sinking any money into them. The reviews I've read indicate that they have noisy compressors.
HU-6868130
last year
Modern, I ordered from Town Appliance on NJ. Got the blk w/ silver handle.
TXGuy
last year
last modified: last year
@Kelley Dockrey Source? Is this in reference to columns or undercounter units? If I'm about to make a massive mistake I'd like to know.
Kelley Dockrey
last year
Check out this discussion on Houzz - https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2299019/a-few-thoughts-on-my-true-refrigerator
TXGuy
last year
@Kelley Dockrey That thread is primarily about True Commercial units, not True Residential units. They have a very different design and are engineered to meet different specifications.
Kelley Dockrey
last year
True needs to do a better job of marketing their residential line. I had written it off. I'm investigating appliances for my primary kitchen. I purchased subzero appliances for a guesthouse that I'm building. Currently, Subzero has a year wait for orders placed now. I'd like to hear more about the True residential line. They appear to have more interior space than Subzero. However, I have not put pen to paper.
TXGuy
last year
@Kelley Dockrey I agree with you that they should. Hopefully you have someplace local that you can go see the units. If you have questions, I'd suggest starting a new thread or posting to one of the existing True threads. There is some info to get you started at https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6131822/true-vs-sub-zero-refrigerator. Good luck with your selections!

Gaggenau 400 series or wait for Miele 7000 series for new appliances

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