Impact Window Questions - Hopefully oberon476 sees this :)

2 years ago

I live in the St. Pete area of Florida on the beach. Currently I have 58 windows in my house that are Andersen 400 series windows. They are wood frame with a vinyl coating and they are hurricane resistant as they are 20 years old. Removing one previously, it seems they are laminated. As when we threw bricks at them, it "cracked" like a windshield. When we put a lighter to the windows, we see 3 flames. I am guessing they are not "impact" per se as they were manufactured just before those certifications were put in place. Anyway, I am struggling on what to replace them with. 50% of the picture windows the seals seems to have failed. As when we pulled the interior trim return casing, we can see that from where the bottom of the window meets the frame, it is water damaged and currently wet and mushy and that part of the frame is obviously compromised. I don't see any similar failures on the casements, but that may be due to how they are constructed. So seeing that after only 20 years (I just bought the house and they have been leaking for a while the previous owner mentioned) so they may have failed in as little as 15 years. I could see one or two, but about 13 of the picture windows is concerning. Andersen's reply was just go out and silicone the window and you will probably be fine as that is all they would do if they did not just fall out of warranty. On the casements, about 25% (or 3 of them out of 12 ) seem to have failed in the sense that they let condensation between the glass. So a little different failure, but still seems to be a seal issue. So obviously I am concerned about replacing them with Andersen. The sliders were even worse and those I did replace with PGT already. I am not super worried about the windows being the same brand as the sliders as the sliders are all west facing and the rest of the windows are the other 3 walls of the house. The other concern I have with Andersen is the wood frames rotting and possible termite damage. Although, my frame house has had termites in the past, I seen damage on some of the jacks, but not the frame. But Andersen said they do not treat them for WDO. So maybe luck? No idea. I am considering PGT, Simonton, CWS, but I am running into a few issues. One of the picture windows is 78 high by 73. It seems like only Andersen may be able to make one that big impact rated. I am not sure why the other companies can't. PGT is looking into it as they said they may be able to do FL impact, just not Miami Dade. So we will see. Other items of concern: I was told by some that vinyl frames are not as strong as aluminum or the wood frames by Andersen (which honestly look cheap as they are made from Jack Pine which is the cheapest of the cheap soft woods). I was also told that the vinyl impact windows lose their strength over time from the sun beating on them. I am not sure if this is true or not. I am not a big fan of aluminum as that corrodes and I have been told the heat gain and the way they do the corners on them are not the best for water infiltration. Again, I don't know if those statements are true or not. To me, it seems like vinyl won't rot, termites won't eat, and should be water proof, so the only drawback may be strength if the statement that they are not as strong as sun exposure is true? I don't know and I don't want to make a $150K mistake. So if you had to pick vinyl, wood or aluminum framed impact windows on the coast, which would you pick and which brand if it was your house and why? Are any of the things I stated above seem way off base? Anything you think I am missing in trying to figure this out? Thanks, Bob

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oberon476

2 years ago

last modified: 2 years ago

CIC Tempered -- I think this is actually CIG for Cardinal Insulating Glass. Tempered is self explanatory

16CFR 1201 11 -- CFR stands for Code of Federal Regulations and 1201 is specific to safety glass used in doors, although manufacturers applied it to windows as well.

SGCC 1804 -- SGCC is Safety Glazing Certification Council. 1804 is obsolete and no longer used, but that makes sense if it was from CIG-1 which no longer exists (mentioned previously)

There is no ANSI Z97.1 because until relatively recently, tempered glass was tested to the 16CFR1201 requirement and not to ANSI Z97.1. That has changed and now testing for 16CFR1201 has been incorporated into the ANSI standard.

But that's all trivia in this case.

What I was really curious about was the laminated glass, which would have a different logo that would include the ANSI as part of it.

The reason I was interested in the logo was because what I am seeing in your pictures as white haze along the edges looks like moisture intrusion into the laminated glass interlayer. That logo should have enough information to determine if it was intended for impact application. But once again and ultimately in your situation, it's really just trivia.

Why and where did your windows leak? Really no way yo tell from pictures and descriptions, but both millworkman and suspect that it could be improper installation as the primary source rather than bad windows. Not in any way definitive of course, but it does fit the limited information so far.

...trim boards fully removed, the nail flange were resealed with sealant, stainless screws, and flashing tape behind the tar paper, new trim boards, and new caulk around them with a drip cap up top.

This sounds like a good solid fix, and way better than "caulking the trim boards", but had you also inspected the interior framing at that time what it looked like before the windows were resealed? Your fix may have (or may not have) stopped any water infiltration, but had the horse already escaped before the barn door was closed?

I have been either directly or peripherally involved with design, testing, and certification of impact glass/windows since 1997 (retired 2019). During that time I consulted with over 40 different window and door companies (including aluminum, vinyl, clad wood, and/or fiberglass) some extensively and some with very little input.

If you asked me what material was best for impact/hurricane protection I would say all of them will work, it depends more on who made the window than on what material they use. If you ask me what material is best suited for your application, I would say that aluminum, vinyl, clad wood, fiberglass are all successfully used for windows installed in your environment. Best choice depends on who you ask. And if you ask four people you might get four different answers depending on who you ask.

I know Andersen can do a 73x78 fixed impact window. I know they can do a good bit larger than that as well. (in window-speak the horizontal dimension is always listed first). Some companies in my experience will limit one dimension to 72" or less due to either testing or manufacturing considerations. Or simply because it's expensive to test and certify impact windows and the market for anything larger is so small that they don't feel the expense is justified for them.

Honestly as long as you pick a quality company I would worry a lot more about installation than window material.

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Comments (12)

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Joseph Corlett, LLC
2 years ago
Bob: Call Doug Ramsey, 561-702-4064. He's on the other coast, but he's been in the window business in Florida for over 30 years. We used to water ski together as teenagers.
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oberon476
2 years ago
Good morning,

i can’t reply to your full post at the moment, but will as soon as i have the chance.

In the meantime, can you post pictures of the glass failures as well as the logos in the corners of the glass.

i am not interested in the AW logo, but in the logo that has SGCC, 16CFR1201, etc.

This logo may be an L shape or not depending on when it was manufactured
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B Reynolds
Original Author
2 years ago
The logo is as best as I can read it as follows:

CIG-1 1-98.6

HP SUN II

IGCC CBA 16MAC

These are all different picture windows that failed. You can see they all failed the same way. I only took a picture of one of the casements, since it is late in the day it is not really foggy except on the north side window that gets no sun.

The one with the wood trim around it is a bit different from the others, that may have somehow leaked from the top as I see staining on the wood returns (now you can see why the frame damage was hidden on the other windows).

Hopefully that helps. Let me know what else you may need.

Thanks,

Bob
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oberon476
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
Bob,

Thanks for the additional information and here goes with a few thoughts based on your pictures and descriptions.

Per the logo information:

CIG-1 1-98.6 - Cardinal manufactured the IG unit at plant #1 in the first quarter 1998.

I don't recall the exact year, but CIG-1 was closed around 2000 because it was land-locked and too small for new equipment upgrades.

HP SUN II - Outdated product name for what's now called Smart-Sun

IGCC CBA 16MAC - insulating glass certification information

The laminated glass should also have a logo of its own that will tell if you have impact glass or if you have laminated non-impact glass. That logo will contain SGCC (rather than IGCC) as well as ANSI Z97.1 and 16CFR1201 on it.

From what I can see in your pictures, only the window covered in moisture appears to have an IG seal failure, while the windows in the rest of the pictures showing white haze along the bottom edge and around the perimeter of the glass appear to be moisture migration into the laminated glass interlayer. This is no surprise considering the amount of water damage that's visible in your pictures. I don't see IG seal failure in those pictures. And since the IG logo is specific to Cardinal, the primary reason for Cardinal IG seal failures is due to moisture from water-damaged windows attacking the IG seal and not the integrity of the actual IG seal itself.

So seeing that after only 20 years (I just bought the house and they have been leaking for a while the previous owner mentioned) so they may have failed in as little as 15 years.

Did the previous owner ever address water leaking or did he just acknowledge and ignore it?? While it's impossible to tell just from looking at pictures, leaking windows are far more commonly related to poor installation practices rather than faulty windows.

I could see one or two, but about 13 of the picture windows is concerning. If it was 1 or 2 I would be more inclined to think that it could be a window issue, but 13 out of 15 really makes me think that ultimately it was an installation issue.

In the 23 years since your windows were originally manufactured, window technology has improved significantly. Honestly, as I just mentioned, I would be much more concerned with the installation rather than the actual window - assuming that you are installing a good quality product.

Some of the strongest and most impressive impact windows that I have ever seen were vinyl. Of course these were not cheap junk from HD or Lowes, these vinyl windows rivalled the top wood windows in price, but the performance was amazing and worth the price.

Given that, I would have no qualms about using Andersen impact windows. I know how they are tested and built and I would have 100% confidence in them.

Another option might be fiberglass, something that could be a good fit for you based on the preferences you stated.
millworkman
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
The sheer amount of water damage (to both the window and the window "sill" area) would lead me to either installation issues as oberon mentions or they kept the humidity level approaching a swamp in the house.
B Reynolds
Original Author
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
Wow, thanks for the reply as it was very informative!

I did find the other number, as it was in the upper left and upside down, whereas the others were in the lower right. Here is what I can make out at least on the casements:

CIC Tempered

16CFR 1201 11

SGCC 1804 (not sure if that is an 8) and then the last few numbers are hard to read and look like 1/8U.

Now I did notice that the casements numbers on the upper left numbers (the ones I just gave you) seem to be the same as the picture windows. However, the casement has a slightly different number in the lower right. Everything is the same except the CIG-1 4-97.6 is a little different than the picture windows.

I could not find an ANSI number anywhere. Should I look somewhere else?

If I may, can I regurgitate some of what you said in layman terms just to make sure I fully understand it? So the casements one you seem to feel is seal failure. I think I understood that pretty clear. But the picture windows, you seem to think that it was water intrusion from around the nail flange area by maybe them not being properly waterproofed and sealed with sealant and flashing tape when they were installed? I just want to make sure I understand what you are saying so I don't misinterpret the potential cause and I can make sure the next install is correct!

Top answer your question, the previous owner had a company come back out at some point he told me and recaulk the trim boards around the windows to address the leaks. Now a little more info. So since I knew that was a potential problem, I had the trim boards fully removed, the nail flange were resealed with sealant, stainless screws, and flashing tape behind the tar paper, new trim boards, and new caulk around them with a drip cap up top. If I am correct, the sealant and tape was done on the top and sides and the bottom I think was done in a way that if water did get there, it could run out the bottom without being trapped (so I think they did not seal the bottom, but I could be explaining it wrong). So that is why when we pulled the interior trim (when we had a small fire) I was super surprised to find the window frame wood wet and mushy and this was a few months after the waterproofing we had done so something else is still happening. The framing around it was not wet. Just that bottom section

A few more questions if you don't mind. One issue I seem to be running into is finding a manufacturer that can do a 78" high by 73" wide impact picture window (top, center window in the picture below). It seems like Anderson might be able to do it, but I am not 100% sure as I am getting different answers. The same with PGT, they seem to think they can do it with a masonry flange, but not a nail flange (72"x72" being their max with a nail flange), but then they said they may be able to do it with a FL impact approval, but not a Miami Dade approval, but they are not sure and they are confused. I have been waiting 4 days for their answer. It also seems CWS and Simonton can't even get to 72"x72" in impact. To change the size of that one window so it is not so high then changes the look of the house as you can see below. The black tar paper is coving a window from a fire. If I change the height of the top one, then that changes the spacing and all the others have to be changed to match.

So finally, what brand would you recommend in this situation? My goal is to live another 25 years (I'm 51), stay here and not have to replace the windows before I croak. :) Since the last set did not last even 20 years, and this is going to be quite expensive (58 windows), I want to make sure I make the right choice. I was also told that vinyl loses it strength due to the sun beating on it after so many years and we really don't have enough data from the last set of "new generation" of vinyl windows to say if they will last longer than 20 years or not. Your thoughts? Also, I am not worried about price per se so as you mentioned HD, Lowes windows are out. Saving $20K on the windows and then doing it a second time at $150K a pop, is penny wise and pound foolish. I really appreciate your help!

Best regards,

Bob
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millworkman
2 years ago
PGT aluminum may be a good fit for you.
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B Reynolds
Original Author
2 years ago
Thank you for the reply. Regarding the resealing process, they did see where sealant joints failed and back when they were installed for whatever reason, they did not use flashing tape. Maybe it was not real big back then. I probably am leaning toward Andersen (although I am scared about it), unless PGT comes back that they can do it.

I am going to see about them doing a water test on one of the picture windows, keeping the water on the glass verses getting any around the trim. That should tell us if it is somehow gettting between the glass, sealant and frame I would think. I would venture to say it was not residual water prior from to the fix, as the fix was 5 months prior to the inside casing being pulled. So it would have definitely dried out within 5 months. It seemed to be running down the bottom of the inside frame. That was the most wet. Any wetness on the bottom sill seemed to be minimal. That is what had my leaning toward the seal, but again, I am just a layman :)

I will let you know what they find with the water test as it may be a week or so before they can resetup the scaffolding to get to them.

I think the company I have lined up potentially is pretty anal on their work as they redid my deck and rewaterproofed my deck attachments and the West wall that was previously leaking and there has been no issues there in about 2 years. But that was about $100K as we had to do steel work as the salt air corroded holes in 16" I-beams. It was unreal. Now the new steal is all coated in polyurea.

Thanks again for your guidance!

Bob
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oberon476
2 years ago
You're welcome and that's a lot of rust on that I beam.

One thing to also keep in mind is that your current windows were manufactured 23 years ago using laminated glass IG units and processes and procedures that were pretty much brand new and still being tested at the time. They may very well be leaking but that doesn't discount that the installation methods for these new-fangled impact windows were also being developed at the time, and as you say when the company resealed the windows they did see flaws in the original installation.

Fast forward 23 years and companies like Andersen now have thousands of these windows in place in your environment and the installation companies have also had 23 years to learn how best to do it right.

What you see from 23 year old windows (with some exceptions of course) is not really indicative of today's materials, processes, or procedures, something worth keeping in mind, IMO.

Even testing has come a long way from what it started out as.
Joni Parent
2 years ago
B Reynolds, I am in the same position as you. We want to replace old windows and hope they last for the next 25 years. Who did you end up choosing for your window manufacturer? I have 3 ea. 106” x 80” SGD that we are converting to fixed or Store Front. They will be low E and of course impact. I live in the FL Keys.
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B Reynolds
Original Author
2 years ago
I have 10'x10' sliders. Those I went with PGT as I think they were the only ones who could do that big. I had to go with Andersen on the windows as I have 6' 6" x 6' windows and only Andersen made them that big. PGT, Simonton, CWS and others do not do that size.