There is no "supposedly" quieter outdoor operation - in my experience. It is wickedly quieter. Indoors - traditional can be whisper quiet or really loud. Ductless will be a certain level of noise which can be higher than traditional or quieter.

There is very little energy value in not conditioning guest rooms in a modern house. Everyone thinks this is important and it really isn't.

Your 5 ton quote sounds awfully close to 500 sqft per ton rule of thumb sizing which is really terrible.

I think the cost of room by room ceiling units (or 2 units in big open spaces) will be prohibitive compared to traditional. The energy savings will not be justified.

Now - doing just the master suite in a mini might make sense. That is what we have - just a 1 ton ducted unit. Would be easier to use generator and easy enough to live in a closed off suite for comfort in a winter time power outage.

The problem that will always be for mini split zoned systems is the need for cooling heating heads in every room... that problem morphs into other problems like maintenance / breakage and ultimately replacement.

Product cycles are short... so the claim there have been improvements? yes, at the detriment of the previous models.

So because those previous models got discontinued... those models break they gonna have to replace for a new one --- inside and out most likely.

High use places like Texas --- I still don't believe mini split options are all that.

If you want quiet, they make regular ducted inverter AC. Super efficient & quiet. I have one installed at my 1978 home, 1910 sq. ft. home.

Here's a picture of my last electric bill...

The rate I got was a teaser rate soon going up --- but look at that usage number. That tells the story on it's own.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

Never choose the mini-split when the option for ducts exists. The minis cost more, will need service more, will not condition an entire house in the manner you are accustomed.

I think there's a good / reasonable argument for the master being it's own mini as David suggests.

My house is laid out on the E-W axis, and my master ended up at the west end of the house. Sunlight on the south side is well managed by shading structures sized for passive solar utilization but the evening sun will put most of the load in the master.

Depending on what's at the west end of your house, maybe that's the right answer.

Can you put the ducts in conditioned space? If you could - it may be possible to zone for the master with a single unit- but that takes someone who knows what they are doing.

Also agree that once you get a well insulated / tight house up to temperature - managing sun loads - it's relatively easy to keep it at temperature.

There is such an animal as a "ducted mini-split" system. A relative of mine who lives in a warm climate location abroad has one and it works very well. Whether the equipment is available in the US and whether there's an HVAC contractor in your area experienced with such systems may be a different challenge.

It's in two parts - the normal outdoor unit that modulates to the current demand need, in a range that spans something like 25-100%. Then, the linesets (coolant pipes) run to multiple in-attic or in-closet small air handler units that each service a few rooms with familiar in-wall flush supply vents as are used with common split systems in the US. Each such zone is on its own thermostat. The system is a heat pump that provides both heating and cooling. The manufacturer is one of the Japanese brands - Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Toshiba, I forget which.

This is in a tight and well insulated home (attic included) in a newly built development of townhouse-like detached units. I'm not sure how many air handlers there are but I know there are 5 separately controlled zones in a home of about 2400 sq feet. This home has two separate outdoor units, mounted one on top of the other. They're very quiet. The sound of moving air indoors is almost imperceptible.

I agree with what others said, a newly built house should be tight and well insulated and you'd be well served to use a HVAC contractor who uses modern methods (including industry standard load and duct calcs) to determine appropriate sizing and construction. 4 tons is excessive for a house that size and putting equipment and ducts in the attic displays incompetence for a location like central Texas. You have one chance to do it right, you need a stronger team than you apparently have now.

Matt Risinger has some good videos on these hvac systems and he builds and does his videos out of Texas.

https://www.youtube.com/c/MattRisinger/videos

I should clarify - I have a ducted mini-split in my master suite. Certainly available in the US. One downside is the limit of 67 degrees on the cooling. Room actually gets to 65 which is borderline for us - we like it cold at night.

Ductless systems are an alternative to moving large volumes of air through ducts and the energy (DOE estimates 30% of the energy of a typical system is required to move air.) They eliminate the need to locate large ducts inside the conditioned space to eliminate heat loss/gain or alternatively, the cost of such losses/gains when ducts are located in unconditioned spaces such as attics. Eliminating ductwork also eliminates the potential for mold/mildew/dust accumulating in ductwork and the need for periodic cleaning.

On the other hand, the lack of ductwork eliminates the option to install centralized components such as humidifiers, de-humidifiers, high efficiency filters, etc. integrated with the HVAC system. That said, most can be installed as stand-alone systems.

Whether you choose a ducted or ductless HVAC system, you will need to run ducts for a fresh air ventilation system. If you go ductless, they'll at least be smaller and easier to keep within the conditioned space.

Where ductless mini splits really shine compared with larger, centralized systems is the ability to zone a home--so that individual rooms can be maintained at conditions comfortable to the room occupants. The indoor units can be maintained in the living area which beats the heck out of crawling around in a crawl space or attic.

Ductless systems are worth a look. Hopefully you can find a local HVAC contractor who offers them as well as centralized systems and can help you make an informed choice.

Where ductless mini splits really shine compared with larger, centralized systems is the ability to zone a home--so that individual rooms can be maintained at conditions comfortable to the room occupants.

Regular ducted split HVAC can be zoned as well, the problem is that it can be a challenge to perform it properly. This is what happens when jobs are a commodity and subbed out to sub contractors. It's more about a revenue stream in which people make money off the backs of others. The more men in the middle, the worse it is. (middle men, they're all looking for a cut of the $$$ pie.)

I own two homes that are zoned with traditional forced air ducted systems. (Not to brag but dispel myths that aren't true.)

I've fixed some rather challenging zone systems in my day... by redesigning and replacing. Lots of garbage in this realm of zoning. So the term fixing in this realm isn't really what is implied. There is no "fixing" garbage.

In terms of doing a zoned home with ductless you're much less challenged with room to move air around but challenged in other ways -- refrigerant circuits to those heads in every room.

Maintenance costs would be much higher with ductless. Repairs would also be higher. Eventual replacement costs would be higher too. Because of that you're not likely to ever get to even with a ductless zoned system. Maintenance alone could undo any efficiency gains over traditional forced air ducted systems.

So where's the proof of what I say here?: I posted my electric bill further up this thread. How much waste could there be in a $25 electric bill?

My ducts run thru the attic, HVAC equipment sits in the attic.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

Ducted HVAC systems can indeed be zoned, but they are limited by the turndown ratio of the compressor and blower. As a consequence, most ducted systems will be limited to just a couple of zones where some ductless system manufacturers offer eight-zone systems.

So where's the proof of what I say here?: I posted my electric bill further up this thread. How much waste could there be in a $25 electric bill?

To suggest a low electric bill is evidence of an efficient HVAC system fails to consider that energy consumption is a function of many variables, the most important of which is the construction of the home's building envelope.

The amount of energy needed for lighting, water heating, and space conditioning a home is a function of climate; solar orientation (solar heat gain) how the envelope is constructed (windows, doors, insulation type and R-value, air sealing); the specific fixtures and appliances; the stand-by power requirements for appliances and electronics; the type and efficiency of the water heater; the number of occupants; the ventilation system(s); the conditions the occupants choose to maintain in the home; the efficiency of the various systems installed; the...well, you get the idea.

A tight, well-insulated home with good quality windows and doors won't need much in terms of heating and cooling. Such a home would have a pretty low energy bill even with inefficient HVAC equipment installed. By contrast, a drafty, poorly-insulated home will result in a higher energy bill, even with the most efficient HVAC equipment available installed.

Homes need to be designed as a system. HVAC systems are a system within the overall system that is a home. The HVAC designer needs to work in tandem with the architects and engineers designing a home and the home's future occupants so the HVAC system supports the overall design objectives. Folks who suggest a one-size-fits-all solution shouldn't be considered for your design team.

By contrast, a drafty, poorly-insulated home will result in a higher energy bill, even with the most efficient HVAC equipment available installed.

I'm sorry I forgot to mention both of the homes I own were built in the late 70's. (1977-1978)

So much for that theory....

"How much waste could there be in a $25 electric bill?"

That's a disingenuous comment.

Your $25 electric bill would cost me $75 due to the higher rate here. You're saying that because my bill is 3 times higher than yours that I must have waste that you do not have?

@Austin Air Companie,

I'm sorry, I forgot to mention both of the homes I own were built in the late 70's. (1977-1978)

That may be factually correct, but it's a downright misleading statement, Ray. On your company's website you show the zoned HVAC system installed in your home. It appears to be in a conditioned attic. I doubt that's how your home was constructed in the 1970's. I also doubt your home has the original windows and doors from the 1970's. Both of those are significant changes to the thermal envelope versus what the original construction was. And more evidence houzzers will be well served to read your posts with a high degree of skepticism.

The 1.5T and 3.5T did seem rather high to me as well - that's a different topic though...

That rate posted above is about half my KWH rate for same timeframe - I'm in 1,600 SF built in 1995 w/ original system.

The master suite rooms includes (Maybe ~500 SF?)

• Laundry/Utility *
• Work-out room *
• Bedroom
• Bathroom
• Walk-in Closet

* These 2 rooms could be excluded from the master suite and incorporated below as well...

The remainder includes: (maybe ~2100 SF?)

• Larger open public space (living room, kitchen, dining area)
• Pantry
• Office (small)
• Bedroom 2
• Bedroom 3
• Powder room
• Full bath
• ...and a hallway that services the bedrooms and a wide spot for mud

Can the overhead ceiling cassettes be serviced from below? Or do you have to get up in the attic? I would assume you have to get up above due to lines and electric...? Making access in remote areas of house w/ lower roof lines (hip roof) more restrictive...

Intuitively I suspect we have too many rooms, too large overall to seriously consider it as a whole house solution. But maybe the master suite might be an option?

Ceiling cassettes are accessible for service from the conditioned living area except for the connections to the refrigerant lines which shouldn't need routine service.

WIth the ducted variety, there are air handlers that lead to vent outlets of similar appearance to standard split systems supply vents.

Also don't forget that each ceiling cassette will need its own drain line, that needs to empty outside.

Yeah, quoting an electric bill doesn't provide much of a complete picture. We are high electricity users, with an average electric bill in CA. Why? Because we spent $60k on a solar system and $38K to update and re-duct a 20 year old system. We gave up trying to calculate breakeven time frames, specially after the new electric meter (required with solar install) was calibrated in favor of the electric company!!

That may be factually correct, but it's a downright misleading statement, Ray. On your company's website you show the zoned HVAC system installed in your home. It appears to be in a conditioned attic. I doubt that's how your home was constructed in the 1970's.

Charles, It's all correct the zoned system in either house is in an Unconditioned Attic. The house that is now a rental has original doors and windows since it was built. The house I live in now has all original windows / doors except for two windows that I replaced a few years ago.

What has changed is that the attic was reinsulated to approx. R-30 blown in insulation the floor of the attic was floored with 2 layers of OSB, new R-8 Ductwork, zoned. I accomplished similar results at the rental when I lived there. Pretty sure the video is still on youtube you may have to dig for it, that was awhile ago.

I'm not in this business to mislead. I tell you like it is.

Yeah, quoting an electric bill doesn't provide much of a complete picture. We are high electricity users, with an average electric bill in CA.

CA Utility rates are most likely over 20 cents a KWH. CA is not my market. Merely playing Devil's Advocate to show you what is possible. (you can see the rate I pay for electricity... Californians move to Texas everyday.)

Not using solar at either location currently. That would blow up the payback parameters for my location. Typically my payback goals are in the realm of less than 15 years. Meaning that the lower power bills actually pay for the HVAC equipment thru use.

@Austin Air Companie,

The bill you're suggesting is evidence of your HVAC design genius covers most of April and less than a week in May. The average outdoor temperature in Houston, TX in April is 69.4 F If you set the thermostat to 70F you wouldn't need much air conditioning if any, would you?

Charles,

Good question. If temperature was all I had to worry about this job wouldn't be half of what it is here in Katy, Texas.

I rarely set thermostat as low as 70. Maybe February and few days in March. That is more a function to get rid of humidity as it is mostly now. Currently at night set to 72, during the day around 74. It would be completely different if not for the inverter AC, because with a traditional 1 stage AC my electric bill would be double what I show.

Once the temperature related heat gets here 90 and above, 72 may be too cold for me I may go back to 74. I don't have a magical number because of the humidity component. As you can see from the graph below the weather is more or less "all over the place".

The humidity reading I show above was 12am yesterday. Later on that same day humidity was up to 88%. This can fluctuate thru the day, thru the week etc.

They have a saying here: If you don't like the weather wait 15 minutes and you'll probably hate it. It's extremely rare to find someone who plans to stay living here beyond work years. This climate is one in a million.

They just don't make weather like this anywhere else. Now that I have had in the inverter AC for over a year now the difference in usage is 5,224 KWH's less over the course of the hottest 9 months here. It's not hard to see the pay back rate. Take that figure multiply by going rate easily over $500 a year x 15. Compared to regular AC there is no comparison.

Operation cost * comfort received. (15 years is national average life but it could last longer than that)

The zone system cuts some operational cost as well. If you visit my website I show several months of my light bill of 2018 in comparison to after the AC inverter was installed. My highest electric bill then was lower than most I come in contact with.

I've done a number of these Inverter AC's for others... so far they have always resulted in better comfort and typically 50% reduction in electric bills... or at least 50% cut in energy usage. The cost of energy here can vary just like the weather.

"This climate is one in a million."

Climate is regional of course, some regions are larger than others. Each differs from others, sometimes significantly, sometimes not.

I think for those differences HVAC requirements and best practices can be unique for each location as much as for each structure. I wonder why you think that the fact that you have regional factors to consider is any different than what HVAC contractors have to do everywhere else?

I wonder why you think that the fact that you have regional factors to consider is any different than what HVAC contractors have to do everywhere else?

Life experience. It's not what I think, it's what I know. This discussion is in HVAC forum board. This is what I do. I've lived up and down the plain states. I've performed HVAC work in more than one state. I am not in a forum board discussing what you do for a living am I? Did I somehow get on the wrong discussion board?

Experience in HVAC: 26 years going on 27 in a few short months.

From working on apartment HVAC systems to then data machines / computer room / production floor HVAC's in 80-90 degree weather, down to -40 below zero wind chill to working for various residential based HVAC companies to then acquiring my Texas HVAC license (not a cracker jack license where you just send in $20 to become a tech.) and starting my own company over 13 years ago.

I wonder why you think all you need is a pulse and a basic understanding of math and science principles to try to do my job? Is there a license in that? Do you have one? ha, ha.

That said you stack my experience and know how among someone else in my field and it's possible for vastly different out comes. Experience comes from doing, not just talking about it.

So much fun for someone who can wait 6 weeks without a care in the world to get something done when it comes to HVAC. I guess we can't all live in "mostly mild" California. Good thing huh?

Ray,

Elmer's inquiry deserved more of a answer than your chest-thumping, self-promoting, California-bashing commercial.

The climate around Katy, Texas is certainly not "one in a million." It's similar to that in most gulf coast locations from Texas to Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and most of Florida, too. If it were distinctly different, it would get it's own climate zone designation. For reference purposes, here's the climate zone map for the continental U.S.:

https://www.ecohome.net/guides/3521/climate-zones-map-usa-canada-construction/

That said, HVAC systems are designed on a case-by-case basis considering not only the climate zone, but the owners' objectives, budget, floor plan, construction details of the building envelope and site-specific considerations such as solar orientation, radon potential, and the potential for outdoor equipment to be corroded by salt spray in areas close to the coast. A one-size fits all prescription isn't design, it's prescription without diagnosis. It underscores the difference between "experience" and expertise.

"It underscores the difference between "experience" and expertise."

This is so true.

I'm not sure why but I think this fellow is still trying to understand how and why I experienced multi-week waits for the install of new HVAC equipment at two different homes in different parts of my state, with two different highly rated and as a result, very busy contractors with booked-up schedules. They were worth waiting for, both demonstrated the skill and professional characteristics their superior reputations led me to expect. Because I scheduled the work in advance while existing equipment was still functioning, there was no emergency, waiting was not a problem and was not inconvenient at all.

Charles Ross Homes, if I hire you today for a build job I have finished plans for, can you have your crew here tomorrow or by Wednesday to start? No, they're busy? But you can schedule it for sometime in the future? Why would that be?

@Elmer J Fudd,

Ray is a one-person company. He lives in the replacement contractor world. When someone is without heat, air conditioning or hot water, it's often the first replacement contractor to arrive that "wins."

New construction work demands a very different set of competencies than changing out existing stuff and it requires a longer attention span than a couple hour service call. Yes, the good new installation contractors typically have a backlog. And they're usually worth waiting for when what they are installing will be in service for 15 years or so, and in my case, when my professional reputation depends on the quality of what they do.

Yes. To be clear, my HVAC contractor encounters were with family owned operations that were much larger than one person owner-operator size. What was being done was removal of existing and install of new furnaces and all required new AC components in existing homes. And duct replacement, sealing, and insulation, along with 3rd party leak testing, now required when pulling permits.

Both asked when bidding if the need was urgent or if I could wait. I said I could wait because the systems in both places needed replacement but were functioning (though at sub-par levels). My longer wait was a bit over 2 months - 6 weeks was for the one who was less busy. It was in the shoulder season in the spring, when reliance on HVAC is pretty light here as it is elsewhere. Both contractors do new installs and replacements, along with emergency/no service situations, but both were and still are booked up and very busy for non-urgent calls. The crews worked for several days in both places.

I try to be proactive about things when I can to avoid emergencies. Some folks don't want to, some can't afford to. I understand what you're saying about "first one to arrive gets the work" but the nature and need of what I wanted done were not like that.

Elmer's inquiry deserved more of a answer than your chest-thumping, self-promoting, California-bashing commercial.

The climate around Katy, Texas is certainly not "one in a million." It's similar...

Just "similar" but not exact... meaning different. Me and Mr. Fudd's disagreements are well documented on this board the story continually evolves from duck to rabbit season and back again. One in a million is a generalized comment... a saying.

But you Mr. Ross love to find something to argue about for the sake of arguing. Distinctly different? That's rich.

I find it humorous to what people like to nit pick over. It doesn't change anything. I don't change anything about the comment I made. You can disagree if you want, I still say Katy, Texas is indeed "one in a million"... at least.

Ray is a one-person company. He lives in the replacement contractor world. When someone is without heat, air conditioning or hot water, it's often the first replacement contractor to arrive that "wins."

Not hot water... I am not a plumber. Texas licensed for AC and heat only (HVAC). Yes essentially that is the "service" I offer as well as the part of the world I live in.

Air conditioning and Furnace repair service in Katy, Texas area. When I say "service" I mean it. Every day, including summer holidays, weekends.

Repairs also include equipment replacement. I myself install all new equipment I sell. I don't sub out work to sub contractors unless the contract specifies that (which is extremely rare situation). If you don't like the way I do things you're free to look elsewhere. I'm not here to tell you what your ears are aching to hear, I am here to tell you like it is. (Firmly and exponentially based on experience.) You don't have to like what I say, most of the time it's not pleasant due to a variety of reasons. In some aspects similar to the confrontational aspects of this forum boards conversations.

Anyone who has viewed my posts know I come thick skinned. Disagreements do not phase me. If you want a gimmick, chase a gimmick. I could not offer the service I offer if my approach didn't work after all these years. I'd be running back around chasing my tail. You'd never get thru when you try to call me. Seriously? Think about it.

Chest pounding: If you want to call it that it's your opinion. You're free to have it. My experience is my experience. 26 years. Easily verified. 13 years running my own company. Again easily verified facts. Essentially it's an advertisement. I am not paid to be here. I am here drinking my morning coffee filling in that time. If this isn't advertising my business what purpose would I have to be here? I don't come here to argue with the metamucil fan club that propetuates this board. Ha, ha... you know who you are.

People search for me. All I have to do is leave bread crumbs so people can find me. AC repair service Katy, Texas area. Everyday. When I say something I mean it.

Not a spam service. Don't sell your info. Don't pester you. You initiate the service you want. It's not that difficult when you know what you're doing. If you want a 20 something or 30 something coming to your home, you have to ask yourself how much experience does this guy really have?

If that's what you want go for it. I've worked for companies like that... having to go back behind some newbie over and over and over. Used in not very fun ways.

Follow my rules. I've been doing this longer than some of you have been alive. My methods work.

Experience. What is it worth? Who else on this board in all the world listed as a pro HVAC service provider has my work ethic? Name one besides me. (beside the mini split warehouse spammer)

Truth is stranger than fiction.

There are people out there who read these threads and never post due to this kind of argumentative climate so frequent here.

How could I know such a thing?

I service the Katy, Texas area.

And they're usually worth waiting for when what they are installing will be in service for 15 years or so...

Not so here. I would say average time to breakage of some kind is about 5 years. In some cases worse than that. This aspect seems to be getting worse over the past decade or so. Nearly every part made in China or Mexico and just "assembled" in USA now.

Repair market is much bigger than replacement market for that reason. In that sense though sometimes the repair(s) involve part replacement of the HVAC system.

An evolving story check back in 5 years maybe it will be even worse.

Ray,

"Not so here. I would say average time to breakage of some kind is about 5 years."

In an earlier post in this same thread, you claimed life expectancy of an inverter system is 15 years. Presumably that's in your market. If stuff starts breaking in as few as five years, it's difficult to believe it will make it to age 15. And if that's the case, you need to recalculate the payback of your systems.

Inverter track record is not tested yet. It's new technology. Started here in 2019. The warranty period is 10 years parts standard warranty.

So check back in another 8 or 9 years, I'll let you know if the gamble paid off.

If I didn't think the gamble was worth it, I wouldn't have installed one at my house.

Most common system out there: is plain jane entry level single stage system. So that is what that 5 year comment is referencing.

Here’s why I want to go ductless:

Duct systems can be done right but almost never are, thus robbing the heating and cooling system of its effectiveness and efficiency.

Duct systems take up a lot of space in attics, basements, and other parts of the house.

HVAC technicians don’t understand – and often don’t care about – ducts.

Mini-splits are some of the most efficient systems (up to 26 SEER).

Mini-splits come in smaller sizes and can better match the heating and cooling loads in the house.

Benefits of a Multi Zone Heat Pump

Multi zone heat pump systems a less expensive than purchasing more than one single zone system.

Multi zone systems only have one outdoor unit affixed to the side of your home, so for some this is more aesthetically pleasing.