Not enough information. Exactly what doesn't work? Give us examples:

- What specific tasks are hard to accomplish?

- Where do you lack space?

- What spaces are going un-used?

Based upon what you said, I have only one solid opinion, and that is NO to a tiered island. A tiered island makes sense IF it will block "kitchen mess" from a living space, but your island is oriented sideways to a living space, so a tired island makes no sense.

The main issue is cooking space, meaning the stove is too small. looking at a 42" cooktop with griddle. The small cabinet next to the stove is currently a pull.out spice cabinet, sounded great except it only pulls out a few inches and you smack your head on the hook trying to see anything. We do not have enough pot and pan storage. The sink under the window is fine except your are constantly turning your back, if it were in the island I feel the flow would work better for cook and would also look directly out the dining window. The only reason we were looking at a tiered island is to separate cooking vs eating area. Right now the island is underutilized, it is 8 foot long by 50" wide. Putting pantry cabinets in the dining room and opening up to the kitchen seems to allow us to storage less used items while keeping the kitchen area more organized with those more frequently used. Separating the range top and the ovens allows one of us to cook on the range while the other is getting in the oven, right now when making a large meal we are constantly in the others way.

The main issue is cooking space, meaning the stove is too small. looking at a 42" cooktop with griddle.

I hear what you're saying, but this isn't a large kitchen -- I don't think it can comfortably support an oversized 42" cooktop.

Is the problem the size of the cooktop ... or is it the space in which you stand to cook? Looks like your glassware is probably stored on the side of the kitchen far from the 'fridge, which means that people are probably crossing over the cooktop area to get drinks.

The small cabinet next to the stove is currently a pull.out spice cabinet, sounded great except it only pulls out a few inches and you smack your head on the hook trying to see anything.

Hmmm ... shouldn't it pull out further? Is this defective somehow? Could you switch this to a chef's drawer (and be SURE it would pull out all the way)?

We do not have enough pot and pan storage.

I can see that you don't have a whole lot of lower cabinet storage -- and that's where pots & pans usually live. But you do have two small pantries? Could you keep JUST your everyday pots & pans in the cabinets and move the larger soup pots, double boiler, etc. to one of the pantry cabinets?

Alternately, how about hanging things above the island? I'm not overly crazy about the look, but a lot of people like it.

The sink under the window is fine except your are constantly turning your back, if it were in the island I feel the flow would work better for cook and would also look directly out the dining window.

That's a hard fix. What kind of foundation does your house have? If you're on a slab, it's extremely expensive to move plumbing to an island.

The only reason we were looking at a tiered island is to separate cooking vs eating area.

I hear what you're saying, but I don't think tiered would work in this space.

Right now the island is underutilized, it is 8 foot long by 50" wide.

In your first post you said you're interested in moving BOTH the cooktop AND the sink to the island. You can't do this in 8' -- consider that the dishwasher would have to move too. Both are hard /expensive moves: if you move the cooktop to the island you'll have to work with ventilation; if you move the island, you have to move plumbing.

But I do agree that moving ONE or the OTHER to the island would be a good idea.

Putting pantry cabinets in the dining room and opening up to the kitchen seems to allow us to storage less used items while keeping the kitchen area more organized with those more frequently used.

This seems like a good idea. In addition, stating the obvious: do you actually use all the items you're looking to store?

Separating the range top and the ovens allows one of us to cook on the range while the other is getting in the oven, right now when making a large meal we are constantly in the others way.

I'm not sure this will make a very big difference. Getting something out of the oven is a quick task.

Other thoughts:

- You say the range area is the major problem -- I think that's the coffee pot in the corner? Maybe it could move to the right side of the sink /eliminating one tasks on that "cluttered" side of the kitchen?

- What are you storing in the island? If you move one of your major players to the island, will those currently stored items shift over to the outside cabinets?

- Could you change your habits /use the island more? If you were to move some items to the island, would it encourage you to use the island more?

- If you gave up the island seating, you could gain 8' of lower cabinet -- that's a whole lot of storage space. Or, you could give up HALF the seating, gaining you 4' of lower cabinet and losing only a part of the seating. I know, that's not what you want to do, but you're saying something has to give here.

- Are you open to changing the French door refrigerator? A single door would open "towards" the work space (rather than one door "blocking" your way).

For the money, I would move the fridge and maybe even the microwave to the pantry wall, recenter the stove on the wall and keep the island clear.

Thank you for the help, I defintly want to get this right this time and not do it again in another 2 years.

I hear what you're saying, but this isn't a large kitchen -- I don't think it can comfortably support an oversized 42" cooktop.

Is the problem the size of the cooktop ... or is it the space in which you stand to cook? Looks like your glassware is probably stored on the side of the kitchen far from the 'fridge, which means that people are probably crossing over the cooktop area to get drinks.

It is the size of the cooktop, currently when trying to use 2 large pots, each are only half under a burner, etc. I just feel a cooktop with burners spaced out in a different configuration such as 2 or 4 burners a small griddle followed by 2 more would give more room. I would say the placement of the range is counterproductive as two people are jammed in the same corner with one at the sink and one at the stove. The glassware and dinnerware is stored far from the fridge, as with the current setup we only have one small cabinet next to the fridge. If the new design works, we would be gaining 15" of upper cabinet and also a corner cabinet where the current open shelves are.

Hmmm ... shouldn't it pull out further? Is this defective somehow? Could you switch this to a chef's drawer (and be SURE it would pull out all the way)?

Not defective just a bad design by Kraftmaid, I am sure it would work in a better location such as the end of a cabinet run.

We do not have enough pot and pan storage.

I can see that you don't have a whole lot of lower cabinet storage -- and that's where pots & pans usually live. But you do have two small pantries? Could you keep JUST your everyday pots & pans in the cabinets and move the larger soup pots, double boiler, etc. to one of the pantry cabinets?

Alternately, how about hanging things above the island? I'm not overly crazy about the look, but a lot of people like it.

The larger pots and stoneware are currently stored in the pantry, the others are stored in a 42" and 36" base cabinet in the island. The other 30" island cabinet is a microwave drawer, which we would no longer need as the microwave would be in the oven cabinet.

The sink under the window is fine except your are constantly turning your back, if it were in the island I feel the flow would work better for cook and would also look directly out the dining window.

That's a hard fix. What kind of foundation does your house have? If you're on a slab, it's extremely expensive to move plumbing to an island.

Full basement, although it is finished. I am not set on moving the sink to the island, I think maybe once the rangetop is out of that corner it wont bother me as much.

The only reason we were looking at a tiered island is to separate cooking vs eating area.

I hear what you're saying, but I don't think tiered would work in this space.

Thank you for advice, we will leave counter height

Right now the island is underutilized, it is 8 foot long by 50" wide.

In your first post you said you're interested in moving BOTH the cooktop AND the sink to the island. You can't do this in 8' -- consider that the dishwasher would have to move too. Both are hard /expensive moves: if you move the cooktop to the island you'll have to work with ventilation; if you move the island, you have to move plumbing.

But I do agree that moving ONE or the OTHER to the island would be a good idea.

Right now, the range hood is recirculating as the way the joists run, it would be near impossible to vent, moving the the island the duct work would run perpendicular to the joists which may be easier. Im sure its going to be expensive but I want to get this one right as I do not want to do this again in 2 years.

Putting pantry cabinets in the dining room and opening up to the kitchen seems to allow us to storage less used items while keeping the kitchen area more organized with those more frequently used.

This seems like a good idea. In addition, stating the obvious: do you actually use all the items you're looking to store?

Definitely need to purge some items.

Separating the range top and the ovens allows one of us to cook on the range while the other is getting in the oven, right now when making a large meal we are constantly in the others way.

I'm not sure this will make a very big difference. Getting something out of the oven is a quick task.

I agree, but having two people in that corner drives us both crazy, a warming drawer in the oven cabinet would be a nice plus.

Other thoughts:

- You say the range area is the major problem -- I think that's the coffee pot in the corner? Maybe it could move to the right side of the sink /eliminating one tasks on that "cluttered" side of the kitchen?

- What are you storing in the island? If you move one of your major players to the island, will those currently stored items shift over to the outside cabinets?

- Could you change your habits /use the island more? If you were to move some items to the island, would it encourage you to use the island more?

- If you gave up the island seating, you could gain 8' of lower cabinet -- that's a whole lot of storage space. Or, you could give up HALF the seating, gaining you 4' of lower cabinet and losing only a part of the seating. I know, that's not what you want to do, but you're saying something has to give here.

- Are you open to changing the French door refrigerator? A single door would open "towards" the work space (rather than one door "blocking" your way).

Currently there is a drawer base on both sides of the island where the butcher block is, so we only have seating for 3 at the island. We use the island daily for eating and only use the dining table for holidays, so giving up seating would be a no go with the wife.

I am not opposed to a single door bottom freezer, but I do not see one available in 36" from subzero.

Thank you for all the help.

Hard to say without a measured plan, but consider moving either fridge or stove to the other side of the sink.
I suspect that the 30” cooktop isn’t so much the problem as the lack of space surrounding it. But by moving one appliance, hopefully you can upgrade the size.
Try to leave the island and dining room intact for now.

Is there any possibility you would consider relocating? You will get the maximum return on your current remodel by selling while it is fresh, and home values are up everywhere due to building slowdowns from the pandemic and increased lumber prices. If you could sell during a high value market and maybe find a deal on a foreclosure or something somewhere else, you would be able to start fresh with a nice budget and perhaps not stand to lose as much with another re-do on the same house. Getting a home with more land around it is a good investment these days with inflation and the stock market being less reliable than we might hope according to some analysts looking at patterns for projections through the end of 2021.

We could not relocate, yes the market is high, but whatever we bought would be high as well and we would spend a fortune on changes. We just put over 100k into the backyard building an outdoor kitchen and we also had custom closets and new floors put in throughout the house. I understand it seems like wasted money, but this is our forever home until we can retire and move full time into our vacation home and as such I like to make it as comfortable as possible while we are here.

How many large pots/pans do you want to fit on the stove at one time? I have a 30” Bluestar and I can fit 4 easily. I suggest you take your pots/pans with you and go look at other brands of ranges (I did this since I wanted to make sure it would work for the kind of cooking I do). If you rarely need more than 4 burners, you can find a 30” that would work. You could also get a portable induction hob if you think may have an occasion to need a 5th burner. I would avoid a 5 burner 30” range for your situation.

Spend some time purging before beginning another renovation.

Could you have a peninsula rather than an island if you do decide to renovate again?

instead of opening the wall totally to dining room. how about working on the larger closet niche/alcove as a new spot for the fridge? Seems like the left of range as a new storage/counter area would help w your stated problems. I wonder if a smaller island would be more to your liking? things to consider:; sell or repurpose the island components[its all very nice in a way]....take the top off and get a new top w less deep overhang for just stools across the back.....the lonely end position seems like it could be forfeited. new position for fridge and more slender island wouldn't be as extensive as redoing the entire kitchen.

Would a 36” cooktop work? They are configured with 5 or 6 burners, which will mean that you could fit two larger pots/pans. I think the concern with a 42” is that visually overwhelming since you would need a hood that is larger and your ceilings aren’t high. I like the suggestion of moving the fridge to the end of the kitchen (closer to family room), so that it keeps people looking for drinks and snacks out of your workflow. The drawback is that unloading groceries would be slightly more of a hike, but at least it would be close to the pantry.(?). The other issue that I see, is that your work aisles look to be very narrow. My mom’s kitchen has less than ideal aisle widths and it’s annoying cooking in her kitchen. For two cooks, NKBSA recommends a minimum of 48”. Thus, reducing the width of your island by 8-10” would give you more room to maneuver.

I think there is something wrong with your spice cabinet. It SHOULD pull out further. I don’t believe it is the design. I believe you have bad hardware or it is not installed correctly. Have you called Kraftmaid to see if they can send a rep to check it out. Or ask the sales person you used to send their rep? Reps can do amazing things for customers.

I'd like to offer an alternative thought, and that is if you have only recently finished your outdoor kitchen that you give it a chance. I'm finishing up an interior kitchen remodel myself, but I have for the past year or so also been educating myself about the potential for outdoor cooking, and for people who have mastered wood and charcoal grilling and smoking, that is where they do the majority of their main cooking. We're not talking just meat, but people are also doing pizza, vegetables, grilled romaine salads, and even bread and cookie baking. You can find all sorts of tips for one-pan meals to do in the grill to make dinner and cleanup a breeze. If I had it to do over, I might consider allocating a larger portion of my interior kitchen budget to the exterior cooking area because I see so much potential there. All I am asking is perhaps to give your outdoor kitchen a chance to see what type of work division you might come up with to help guide any further remodeling efforts. You might also look into the whole workstation sink concept. Leaving the sink where it is but getting a 5-foot one (minimum) from a company like The Galley, Havens Metal, or Rachiele would change your workflow significantly without having to touch other spaces. I also echo what someone else said about looking closely at what it is you need to store. Many families can get by with storing a little less food in the pantry from week to week, and there may be cooking items that are underutilized that could go into another storage area like the basement or garage for that once-per-year usage. I think the current kitchen is beautiful, and I would particularly hate to see you lose that beautiful countertop currently placed.

Thank you for the help, I defintly want to get this right this time and not do it again in another 2 years.

Definitely. You're going to lose money on this already -- doing it again in two years is unfathomable.

It is the size of the cooktop, currently when trying to use 2 large pots, each are only half under a burner,

I don't understand this "half under a burner", but I still don't think you have space enough for 42". Be sure you don't trade one problem for another.

I would say the placement of the range is counterproductive as two people are jammed in the same corner with one at the sink and one at the stove.

I didn't see this before, but I see it now: The sink, stovetop and refrigerator form a work triangle in the kitchen. Each should be at least 4' /no more than 9' apart. This backs up what you're saying. Too much is going on in that corner, so the answer has to be, Get something out of that corner.

Definitely need to purge some items.

Couldn't we all?

I agree, but having two people in that corner drives us both crazy, a warming drawer in the oven cabinet would be a nice plus.

You're already short on space. I'd say skip the idea of a warming drawer /use that space for pot and pan storage.

Currently there is a drawer base on both sides of the island where the butcher block is, so we only have seating for 3 at the island. We use the island daily for eating and only use the dining table for holidays, so giving up seating would be a no go with the wife.

Something has to give, and you do have the choice of eating at the dining room table -- it would open up some space for you.

I am not opposed to a single door bottom freezer, but I do not see one available in 36" from subzero.

Does it have to be that name brand? Currently the right-hand door that you must open /reach around is contributing to the crowding in that problem corner.

I suspect that the 30” cooktop isn’t so much the problem as the lack of space surrounding it.

That's what I was thinking, but you expressed it better.

I have a 30” Bluestar and I can fit 4 easily.

I have a 30" range, and I can also fit 4 pots easily. BUT I have ample space on each side of my range. That's why I'm suspicious that opening up the space around the range would make it work for the OP.

You could also get a portable induction hob if you think may have an occasion to need a 5th burner.

Not a bad plan. Three other thoughts:

- A family of four isn't going to use multiple large pots every day of the week.

- How often do you use small appliances? We love our Instapot, slow cooker, steamer and other small appliances. These could be used in areas apart from the range.

- You have that great outdoor kitchen -- make use of it!

Would a 36” cooktop work?

Yes, if you insist up on pushing to a larger cooktop, 36" is a choice.

I think the concern with a 42” is that visually overwhelming

I hadn't thought of that; I was only thinking of function, but -- yes -- 42" would be out of proportion with this kitchen.

My last thought: I agree that you have too much going on in that back corner, but I'd have a hard time changing a whole lot. I'd try to do it moderately. As such, I'd change three things:

- Move the refrigerator to one of the pantry closets (if this fits). Doing this would mean that the French door fridge would work /the doors wouldn't block anything. The island would work as your landing space.

- With the refrigerator moved, I'd move the current range to the CENTER of that back wall space. You would lose those not-much-good narrow cabinets that now flank the range. That would give you one good-sized lower cabinet on each side of the range AND more upper cabinets. This will give a cook at the stovetop a good bit more space in which to maneuver and would separate the cook from the refrigerator and the sink.

- Finally, I'd lose the seating at the island /change the family's habits to eating in the dining room. This would allow 3 good-sized lower cabinets on the back side of the island -- and be sure they're built with pull-outs /they go 3' deep, so they'll hold a ton of stuff.

The above is not ideal because it does place the refrigerator on the opposite side of the island, and it does take away the island seating -- but it would allow the majority of the kitchen to remain intact (making the price a whole lot lower), it basically doubles your cabinetry storage, and it would provide a much better work triangle /alleviate crowding in that bad corner.

Rather than redoing your entire kitchen, how about hiring a professional organizer to come in. There's really nothing wrong, per se, with the layout you have. I think you just don't use the space in the most efficient manner.

Rather than redoing your entire kitchen, how about hiring a professional organizer to come in. There's really nothing wrong, per se, with the layout you have. I think you just don't use the space in the most efficient manner.

That's not a bad idea. Paying a pro for a couple hours of advice is way cheaper than redoing a whole kitchen.

Earlier I said something about changing habits being cheaper than redoing the kitchen -- that's essentially what LittleSpaces is saying too. You could TRY some new habits (like taking away the island chairs /forcing yourself to eat in the dining room) for a month to see how it goes.

However, I think the OP has a real work triangle issue going on in the refrigerator /stove area, and all the organizing in the world won't fix that.

I looked at your profile. You bought this house three years ago, at which time it had a brand new kitchen. Which you tore out and apparently don't like. And now you're looking at doing a new kitchen?

Sorry, but THREE kitchens in three years is such a colossal environmental waste. You guys made some mistakes on your last kitchen. People on this thread have noted that they're not even clear mistakes - you may just be using your kitchen wrong.

I know we all consume things that we don't need to consume, but this level of waste is bordering on a level of unethical.

I have never been through a kitchen remodel - I am actually just starting mine as soon as my master bathroom is finished. However, I did “design” my existing kitchen. “Design” = I completely replaced the kitchen in our house plans with a sketch I made that incorporated different pieces of other kitchens I saw while house hunting.

After discovering Houzz about 8 months ago, I now realize that I’m lucky it functions as well as it does! When I asked if we could replace the original kitchen with the one on my sketch, his answer was simply, “Sure, you can do whatever you want - it’s YOUR money!” Our builder reproduced exactly what I had sketched.

Do I think he would have told me if something was wrong with what I had designed? At the time, I thought so. After reading some of these design dilemmas, I now wonder . . .

I simply do not understand how you engaged a kitchen designer - and wound up with so many issues. - especially the lack of space in your work triangle. After reading H2O2’s comment that there was a brand new kitchen when you purchased your house three years ago, and that you waited to rip it out until after living in the space for a year, I’m even more confused. It makes me wonder what the kitchen looked like previously. My guess is that there wasn’t an 8‘ island (or maybe an island at all?)

If I was you, there is NO WAY I would go through the expense and hassle of second kitchen remodel in two years - MUCH LESS without hiring a reputable KD!

I don’t know what the square footage is for your kitchen, but it seems like you want to include all of the amenities of a much larger kitchen in a space that’s simply not big enough. Please note that I’m not saying your kitchen is small - I’m simply saying that an island big enough for a 42” cooktop + seating requires a kitchen with a larger footprint.

It would also be EXTREMELY helpful if you attached a scaled drawing of your kitchen - along with your dining room and adjacent living room space. If you want a 42” range - I think you should add one. However - I think the only way that’s going to make sense is if you open up the wall between your kitchen/dining room in order to combine the two, since you already stated that you can’t add an addition.

Please seriously consider hiring a competent professional KD with references - and plenty of ”before/after” photos of previous projects. I don’t want you to be back here in 2 more years because your next kitchen doesn’t work for you.

@PatriciaColwellConsuting & @ JAN MOYER - I promise to NEVER roll my eyes again after reading one of your posts telling the OP to hire a KD! FYI - my “eye rolling” wasn’t because I don’t believe that your services aren‘t worth the money - it was just because they seemed more like a “luxury” than a “necessity.” I am now reconsidering my viewpoint! I can’t imagine paying for a new kitchen - and it functioning SO POORLY that I was willing to tear it all out only TWO YEARS LATER!! 😡😬🤮🤢🤯

Unrelated to your original question, but can I ask what type of counter top you have on your island?

sorry, the perimeter cabinets are actually gray not black and are made by hanstone. The island slab is not quartz but marble ( we were told it was quartzite, but they lied as this countertop etches from absolutely everything).

@Renata Take a look at Statuary marble or an alternative Cambria Brittanicca quartz.

it is beautiful. I was hoping it was going to be a durable quartzite or quartz that actually looked like marble. Every quartz I have seen looks manufactured (I know it is) and lacks the shine and appeal of quartzite, but I keep hearing the quartzite horror stories of mislabeling. Thank you and good luck with your kitchen

We did not like any of the quartz options that looked like marble, many of them are very bright white and the veining looks very man made. We had true quartzite in the past and it was great, but this marble looks like it has been through a war in only 2 years.

@Carl Grasiano - that’s really too bad about the condition of your marble countertop - I’m trying to make a decision on what to use for my island - and was just about to ask for the specifics related to yours because it’s a beautiful choice.

Also, I hope that my previous (long winded) comment didn’t come across as being harsh. It wasn’t meant to be . . .

I was actually very frustrated for you - I can’t imagine spending all that money on materials and labor + paying a design fee = a result that’s non-functional for you and your family. Very disappointing.

Sorry, but THREE kitchens in three years is such a colossal environmental waste ...

I know we all consume things that we don't need to consume, but this level of waste is bordering on a level of unethical.

Gotta agree. You can donate /re-sell things, but we should all be more aware of our waste. Two things have opened my eyes to this in the last few years:

- We ripped out our leaky shower and (to save money) took the old stuff to the dump ourselves. Wow, it was an eye opener. So much garbage that will still exist 100, 200, 300 years from now. Some of it just because people wanted "updated colors".

- I attended a teacher workshop at the recycling center, and I learned SO MUCH. I've always come down strongly on the side of keeping your life "moderate in size" and buying things used. I thought I was a pretty decent recycler -- I wasn't. I understand the process so much better now, and I have made some changes in how I do things at home. I'm particularly trying to avoid plastics in all forms -- that's the biggest problem we face today in recycling.

I don’t know what the square footage is for your kitchen, but it seems like you want to include all of the amenities of a much larger kitchen in a space that’s simply not big enough. Please note that I’m not saying your kitchen is small - I’m simply saying that an island big enough for a 42” cooktop + seating requires a kitchen with a larger footprint.

Good points.

This is kinda the elephant in the room.

I agree the kitchen size is small for what we need, we are currently working with a GC and architect to ad a 600sf addition to enlarge the kitchen and master bath.

I don't know if I've ever, ever said this in all the years I've been on GW, but I don't know if I've ever seen a more crystal clear case of 'more money than brains'. Sorry.

Thanks, but not sure I ever asked whether this was a good investment. Truth is, homes are not a good investment in the first place. If I have to live there I want it exactly how I want it, not much concerned about the finances.

"If I have to live there I want it exactly how I want it, not much concerned about the finances."

It's not the money that bothers me, it's the sheer wastefulness of it. Have you even thought about this? I have to agree with the above -- it is stupendously wasteful and environmentally impactful.

If you do proceed with this plan, call in someplace like Habitat for Humanity who will make use of what you are so cavalierly disposing of. Or post an ad that the materials are free if you come and disassemble -- you'll have takers.

The materials are not being wasted, a family member has just purchased their first home, they will be using all of the cabinets, appliances and even the countertops if the contractor can get them off in one piece.

^^ That is good!

The materials are not being wasted, a family member has just purchased their first home, they will be using all of the cabinets, appliances and even the countertops if the contractor can get them off in one piece.

Doesn't that leave their things going to a landfill?

Stop judging people! Don't push your personal views when someone is asking advice regarding layout...isn't this a forum to HELP???