This is a sketch of one of my client's previous kitchen, about 8'-6" x 9'-6". I designed one with her for her new home approximately twice the size that she likes very much, but she said there are times when she misses the efficiency of the old kitchen.

The open floor area in her old kitchen is about the size of your island. I am guessing your kitchen is larger than it needs to be. Seek the assistance from a local kitchen designer.

Looks like a great kitchen for aging in place. Personally, I’d need a bigger pantry, and a bit less room between fridge and range Depends how you shop. And I would prefer a couple of island seats on the microwave side. The dh and I like to sit cornered to each other when we snack or breakfast at the island. Overall, congrats!

I’m really bad at reading these layouts... I think the oven combo is a bit far from the sink? That space would be more ideal for a larger pantry or your bar area. I also think you can make your sink much larger with the space/window size— I have a 45” and have no regrets (google workstation sink). Congrats on the home, that’s fantastic.

I think your island is a barrier. The microwave is very far especially. And I am not sure you have a very good aisle between the island and microwave wall

i think a kitchen designer is a great idea. As a non pro I might change the wall with the microwave and ovens to be shallow pantry storage. Turn the island 90 degrees. Put the fridge just right of where the dishwasher is. Move the dishwasher to the other side of the sink. And move the oven to the cooktop wall. Consider a drawer microwave in the island. Or put it in an upper cabinet to the left of the sink. In that configuration you don’t need a prep sink in the island.

I agree with the above. Dishwasher should be on the left of the sink (unless you are left handed). I would want the refrigerator closer to range and sink. Move MW closer as well. Everything is just too far apart as it is right now.

There’s a prep sink, so every is not too far apart. I might slide the oven and microwave closer to the fridge and use the rest of that counter for your bar. It’s a good layout.

And trash should be in the prep zone (island).

MW seems very far from fridge. I’d install a microwave drawer in your island. If your husband goes fridge to microwave, it seems like this would be a good set up.

Do you need a prep sink? I know many people say an island that big warrants one... we do not have one (kitchen is 16x20) and I don’t miss it. I’d install trash can on other side of main sink, so that you’re scraping uneaten food in trash, rinsing dishes in sink, and then loading into DW.

As for a bar, what do you envision that being?

I will ask you one question: how do you use your oven? If you do any range-to-oven cooking, the location of your oven will be problematic. If you only use it occasionally/only for cookies, it's OK, but it's not in a protected space. Anyone trying to get to the fridge or pantry will have to cross it, and anyone sitting at the island will be a bit close for comfort (IMO). Personally, I would prefer a range in your layout.

Of course, we can't see the rest of the plan, but it looks as if anyone who is in a huge hurry to get to the fridge or pantry could go around, if someone else is standing in front of the ovens. With only two people in the house most of the time, how many times will that happen? I like that there is plenty of 'step-back' space in front of the ovens as drawn, and landing space on the counter to the right. With the extra hallway, it doesn't look as if the entry traffic needs to pass through the MW/oven/bar aisle.

Moving a seared item from cooktop to ovens will be the biggest issue, so that should be considered.

Oh my. Thank you all SO much. This is beyond valuable information, and I truly appreciate it.

MizLizzie, there is a much larger pantry just a few steps away from the kitchen in the utility room/kennel. I think I am going to move the cooktop down a bit, and I love your idea of making the seating so we can sit at corners from one another,

LizH, thanks so much for the workstation sink idea. I had no idea such a thing existed, and I love that idea. Our sink size now is too small, and so a much larger sink is a must.

roccouple and megs, thanks for the idea on the microwave drawer in the island! Again, I had no idea such a thing was a "thing," and I love the idea. Our microwave is currently at eye level, and I don't think that's really the best idea for older adults. Would I then put my oven under my cooktop?

emilyam, thanks for the idea on putting a trash receptacle in the island. We've only got one right now, close to the sink, and it's not near enough. I think I'm going to make that space where the ovens are now into the bar.

mamagoose, I am so appreciative of your thoughtful and thorough response, and your ideas are just the kind of info I needed to have. I actually "like" this layout, with some of the tweaks that have been mentioned.

anj_p, I don't really use the oven much at all because I have a countertop convection oven, plus my microwave is also a convection oven and speed cooker. Oven really hardly gets used except at holidays. Better idea to put it under cooktop and put microwave drawer in island?

I am considering scrapping the prep sink idea since being given the idea of a workstation sink. I was going to include a prep sink because I really dislike preparing raw meats, eggs, produce, etc., in my main sink, but I am also kind of weird about liking, plain, smooth, unbroken-looking surfaces (like an island with nothing on it, lol. It seems like people are split on whether or not to do a prep sink.

The prep sink is necessary in your layout. Without it, no matter how big the main sink is, it would be too far from the fridge and in the wrong order for kitchen work.

Thank you. I am leaning heavily toward keeping it and moving and enlarging it as mama goose suggested.

I also saw where RES2 on my cooktop vs sink in island thread had asked for the entire first floor floorplan, so here it is.

Here is the latest version.

Thank you so much.

I took so many of your suggestions, and I really appreciate the time you spent to look at it and help me.

This may sound like overkill but from the looks of the house it looks like you want to get it right.

the bar/coffee area needs a water source. You also may want to consider a dishdrawer dishwasher there or you will spend your retirement running coffee mugs and glassware across the room to the dishwasher by the window and back.

as we approach (I’m 64) retirement the last thing we want to do is reach down for the oven. If you intend to put the oven under the cooktop you might as well use a range. Please consider a cooktop and separate wall oven. love my wall oven.

your kitchen has so much potential. Would love to see the elevations of your home.

It looks as if you're trying to use two runs of 24" deep cabinets on the island. You'll need to account for a front overhang, 1" minimum, but probably more like 1.5", and doors on the cabinets under the seating overhang will take another 3/4"--unless they are inset doors. What looks like a 12" seating overhang is now down to 10" or less if the counter top is measuring 5'.

We have a bar sink in our current home in the bar area, and we never use it.

I guess I was kind of embarrassed to call such a large area a bar only, but we love wine and fine tequilas, and so that area is really going to probably be JUST a bar, lol.

The coffee will likely be on one of the other counter spaces, and by glassware, I meant the wine and highball glasses and other bar accoutrements, as well as wine storage. I may put a wine fridge under the counter.

I think you are smart to suggest a range. I have an induction cooktop and really love it. You didn't used to be able to get induction in a range, but I will for sure check into that. Thanks for the suggestion.

I really very rarely use the oven - I'm more of a pasta, seared fish and meats, cooktop kind of cook - so access to the oven is not critical to me. I do Key Lime Pie in the summer, but that's about all of the baking I do (unless someone has one of those infernal cookie exchange things at work).

We've not yet moved to the upper floor design, or outside, so I don't have my elevations yet, but I am excited to see them too!

Thanks for the ideas!

I'm guessing your designer has done a good job of checking off items on your wish list, but you really should be looking at this in its entirety.

All parts need to work together -- they need to be designed together, not room by room, or floor by floor.

You should have a good idea of the exterior even before the interiors are all in place.

There seems to be room for improvement in the floor plan you showed above, and I'll suggest working on the overall arrangement instead of focusing on individual rooms.

You might consider a new thread to discuss the floor plan, and I'd press your designer for the remainder -- upper floor and exteriors.

I defer to the very expert folks who've already given you some great advice on how to improve your kitchen. The only thing I'd suggest is a small dishwasher near the bar to eliminate the cross-town traffic. Maybe a drawer?

PPF, I do have an exterior front elevation. It's actually what the entire house is based on, but as the house is fully custom, we're going one floor at a time until I've finalized those designs, and then we'll work on the elevations.

For example, a couple of weeks ago, I changed the porch appreciably and removed the dining nook from the kitchen floor plan. Last week, I reduced the size of the sunroom, and this week, I moved two windows.

I'm actually the primary designer. I took a facade I liked and created the floor plan and sent it to a residential designer for rendering of the plans. So I already have a good idea of how it all will look as it came from a combination of our current home plan and my imagination. :)

I did a lot of this type of work on our current home - I was very involved in the build, and was happy with the result. I re-did many of the aspects of it, both interior and exterior.

The new house and exterior will have a lot of the same floor plan aspects and layout (photo of our house below) of our current home.

BUT, I am completely open to suggestion and have taken a lot of the recommendations to heart and made a lot of changes. I realize I am no pro, and I truly appreciate the help!

And I absolutely will post the floor plan and ask for input - I agree that will be extremely helpful. The kitchen was really bothering me, and so that is why I was focusing on it to get it pretty close before posting the whole floor plan. Thank you for the suggestions!

reff31, I like the idea of the dishwasher drawer - thanks!

mama goose, thank you. How much depth do you think I should add to the island on the seating end? There is plenty of space for it due to the open floor plan. How much would be a generous depth - 6'? More?

Since I am getting rid of the table that is in my current kitchen, I will really need a sizeable work surface for my husband, who uses that table a lot, and myself for various chores and tasks.

I am open to making that island as deep as it needs to be.

Also, the microwave drawer in the island is a no-go for my husband, who is 6'4," and I guess I don't disagree. We compromised on a counter-height microwave because I don't like that our current one - paired with our wall oven - is eye-level for me.

Would it be feasible to put the microwave in the pantry area next to the fridge with cabinets above and below? We do already have a large walk-in pantry area just steps away in the utility room/kennel.

You are very welcome

I have my microwave behind closed doors and love it that way. In fact when my daughter was little her babysitter didn't realize we even had a microwave for quite some time. So yes, I think you could put yours in the pantry.

Your comment about the pantry made me look closer at your kennel/pantry/mudroom space and I think it could be better arranged. It's hard for me to read the labels but at a minimum I would consider changing the entry from the garage directly into the kitchen so that you step into the mudroom space first. I'd probably move the powder room closer to the kitchen and kennel further toward the left. Depending upon how you plan on using the pantry (food only, less often used appliances, jumbo packages of TP) you could turn the pantry space 90 degrees, enlarging the in-kitchen pantry and minimizing the mudroom pantry. Just something to think about considering what would work best for your lifestyle.

Just a warning about the depth of the island that some alluded to - with 2 back to back full depth cabinets and overhangs comfortable enough to sit at for island seating you may be past the usable width of most natural and man made slab material.

Additionally, and, IMO just as important, it will be a bear to clean that puppy. Now, I may have the arm length of a T-Rex, but I find the 48" deep island I have now to be the max that is comfortable to wipe down and that one is just 48" square, so it's easy to get all the way around it.

I agree with @just_janni. Our island is 48" and I have to walk around it to clean it. At 5' or more, it would be a stretch to reach the middle.

Nancy/Oakrunfarm,

I can see you worked hard to get all the things you can think of into your plan. But, working other suggestions and ideas into the plan seamlessly needs a little push, maybe from an architect. The entire project needs to be designed as an entity, not piecemeal room-by-room or floor-by-floor. Facade and massing symmetry is strong with you, which is perfectly fine, as you can "massage" a plan to a certain extent. However, there are some details with the overall first floor shown that could be reworked, and thus affect any detailing you are doing in the kitchen now.

For the kitchen, you have lots of room and vast floor space. Whether you utilize it or not, a "cook's" range (e.g. 48"+) or separate double wall oven may better fit this genre of property value and size. You show lots of upper cabinets - a waterfall of cabinets from the viewpoint of the Great Room. Maybe that can be broken up by a range nook? The turning of seating on the island is not successful. There are some questions I would have with the entire laundry/mudroom/powder area, where revising would affect the kitchen layout.

erff31, I did change the garage entry so that you enter into the mudroom.

There are two powder rooms in the house and this one is really only used coming in from the pool, and the other one is not far from the kitchen.

I think the designer located the one in the utility room where he did because it was the best space that allowed for a sink. although in our current house, we use the laundry room sink since guests rarely use the "pool powder room." We don't HAVE to have a sink in that one.

Our 2 small dogs are only briefly confined to the back space via the pocket gate. which we can step over, or slide.

I need the counter space for dog grooming or folding clothing, I really would like for the dryer to vent to the exterior wall instead of the roof because we had a problem with it venting to the roof before, and I do like having a window in front of the sink.

We need to have a closet there because we are going to have a finished basement that is accessed through the space under the stairs, and it seems like the front part of that room was the logical choice, although now that I have that large mudroom/alcove, that could go in there somewhere.

With just two people, we don't need a larger pantry.

I'd welcome ideas to make it a better space - thanks!

This too square instead of rectangular kitchen is an architect generated problem. As is all the (many) other issues with the home plan. It needs an architectural a solutions. Homes are not designed as a game of Tetris. Big problems are created by that lack of holistic vision approach. Inside and outside are designed simultaneously. When they are not, you run into expensive makeshift solutions to the problems that get designed into the “floor plan”. A floor plan or an elevation are not a home design.

Ah! Now I see. My head was not recognizing the walls around you kitchen. I'm sure you've thought things through but I have a habit of seeing things differently from most people.

So stepping through that space, I see a closet, the dog grooming space, laundry and then pool bath. Is that right? Is this the order of most use?

When you come in from the garage are you essentially making a u-turn to hang up your coat (sorry not that familiar with the NC climate)? And anyone using the pool bathroom walks the entire length of the space? For me I'd want this rearranged/opened up some.

I'd move the closet and use the wall enclosing the stairs for a coat closet. Do you need the pocket door to close off the entire space? If not, I'd open up the space where the closet was for better access. If so I'd still want it open but would have to come up with another way.

(my D just taught me how to mark up your image so I can't do all the rearranging that others do but I'm sure you get the idea)

just_janni and anj_p, I am planning to make the island multi-level to address a couple of issues.

One, I love the chairs from the dining set that we currently have that we won't be using the table of, and they are taller chairs.

I have a multi-level set up on my current island, and my husband and I both like that. (We are both tall.)

So, if I make the front portion deep enough for the prep sink and some working space, and make the area with the seating higher, then I should be good on being able to clean it efficiently. (I also have freakishly-long arms.)

This will also solve the very large piece of stone issue.

So, I could feasibly make it 5', I believe. Please let me know if you think not.

3onthetree, we are going to work with the same engineering firm we did on our current build, and they have architects on staff. I think it's a great idea once we get the floorplan together to consult them to see if it's a feasible build, or if changes need to be made.

The builder of our current home is also an architect, and he kept us from making a major mistake when I modified the design of our current home.

On the kitchen, it seems like it is changing daily... I currently have an induction cooktop in the island, and a double wall oven set-up, and I really don't like either of those things. My wall ovens make the upper one too high, and my cooktop has a downdraft that doesn't get the job done.

I found an option I think will work well for me - a Cafe convention range with double ovens.

And a microwave at about counter level in a built-in beside the fridge (in the Pantry cabinetry).

I do like your idea of a range nook. I've been struggling with how to utilize the corner between the range and sink, and that is a good idea - thanks. I'm also planning to do something like that in the sink area.

Can you tell me more about what I should do about the seating at the island and your ideas for the mudroom/laundry/powder room?

Thank you so much, everyone!

Dining chairs do not work with bar height seating. 😐

Sorry guys, testing the reply function. I got locked out from the KT somehow.

Celadon, The kitchen is rectangular. It's 2' longer than it is wide. It had an additional 9' in length, and was ridiculously too large, and the entry was directly into the kitchen from the garage. I removed that space and created the mudroom/alcove that you come into the garage from.

I am pretty sure the chairs I am planning to use are bar height. They are much taller than regular dining room chairs and so is the table.

We are designing the home outside as we go. It's based on the same footprint and almost exactly the same floor plan I currently have, which works exceedingly well for us.

I will have architectural, engineering and design help throughout the process. I wouldn't want you to think I'm just going to hand some kind of makeshift plans to the builder and say, "here, do this."

Someone stole some plans from me once and did that exact thing and they had a nightmare mess because they did not go through the process with an architect and engineer.

Once the plans are done, I will work with the architect and engineers at the same firm we used before to ensure it all works.

I would not do a range nook, at least how I understand them. I honestly don't know how anyone cooks with those. The last thing I would want is a wall I need to move around or a wall blocking my counter next to my stove. They might look pretty but I think they're completely dysfunctional. I currently have 18" of counter on one side of my range and it's too little. Think twice about doing anything like that. There' s nothing wrong with a long expanse of counter.

I think the cafe ranges look great and perform well. I don't think you need to put a 48" range in your kitchen just to make it look nice.

I didn't follow the "oven too high" yet "tall and freakishly long arms" but anyway . . .

The whole utility area just does not make much sense to me. Pool access has to traverse through the Great Room to the Powder Room? Why is it stuck in back, and not utilized for the garage access as well? So maybe access from garage should be changed to enter a "utility area," with dog grooming/maybe wash station in garage. Mud room open to great room? Even with high-end cabinets, that is something functionally that should be visually separated. Also, since the 1950s, basements are a habitable floor and passing through the Dining or Mud Room to get to the stair is odd.

I wouldn't approach it as you give the architect a final design, this plan should be given as a "wants/style/schematic list" and it'll be their starting point. You'll be inefficiently wasting thought cells working out so many details, when something big (like the roof over the garage needs to match the Master Suite wing) will create some complicated, but ultimately unnecessary detailing.

I agree with you, anj_p after looking at more photos of range nooks.

I am going to have a large stainless hood over the induction range, and I'll probably have some glass-front cabinets to display objets d'art, so those two things will break up the visual of the run of cabinets somewhat.

I think the Cafe range looks like the perfect choice for me. Glad you give it a good recommendation!

There has been a lot of discussion since I last posted, so this might be hit or miss. A MW will work in an upper cabinet--you might consider keeping it on the bar/coffee center wall--still near the fridge, but it would have landing space, and space to set other items.

I googled two-level island with extra cabinets. There aren't many pics of that set-up (unless I had the wrong search terms), but I found one pic with what appears to be a cooktop. I would think that a large one-level top would make a better work surface. If the seating overhang is raised all along the short side, that will decrease the prep space. How large? I can reach all the way across my 36" deep island, so 6' wouldn't be too deep for me--except I'd never design an island that deep. I'd suggest a second row of 15" or 18" deep cabinets, with a 15" seating overhang. You could use a drawer base or pull-out on the side without seating, for easier access than reaching under the seating overhang. Total depth of top will depend on front overhang and whether the doors on the back side are inset, so 55"-60". Since your husband is tall, you might want to add a couple of inches to the seating overhang, and use the 15" cabinets.

I am not a professional but would recommend a sink in your beverage center along with a beverage fridge - a small sink just large enough to rinse a blender, or fill a coffee maker or wash wine glasses by hand. This with glass-front upper cabinets would make a perfect beverage center. And this keeps some traffic away from the work triangle.

My prep sink is about 18" from my stove, not on an island. If you put a prep sink on an island, then you cannot set out a large buffet for a crowd without adjusting for the sink, which is a pain. But you may have already decided against an island prep sink. I'd put two sinks in this kitchen but one in either the beverage center or near the range.

Isn’t there a dining table? Where do you eat dinner? Why are utility spaces on the front of the house? They always go on the rear so you come in and clean up from yard work.

reff31, yes, the coat closet is just to the right of the door from garage into the mudroom, but that really only gets used twice a day during cold weather - when coming and going to work.

The bath gets used probably the most of anything in there.

Thanks for the ideas!

3onthetree, the pool will be to the back, left of the house, and pool bath accessed through the garage. (It's in the utility room.) We have a fridge in the garage and prefer to enter from the pool area through the garage because of tile. Wet suits and hardwood don't mix well.

The dog grooming just needs a counter for the grooming table and supplies, and sink and needs to be inside the house.

I find it unsafe to have a microwave oven so high that I have to reach above my shoulder height to take out the hot food, so I want to move the microwave to counter height.

The mud room is really more of just an entry alcove/landing area for my handbag, keys, etc. A nice table with a lamp, etc. Perhaps a low settee. It will have two walls and be closed down somewhat. It won't have anything in it that I would deem unpleasant to view from the great room.

Raised Island seating as we age is not very comfortable.

MaryKat, there is a dining room. If we are having a sit down dinner, we eat in there.

Otherwise, we eat in front of the TV or in the kitchen at the dining table (currently), or will eat at the island on the subject floor plan.

The reason for utility being in the front is that we have a 30 acre farm, not a backyard, so normally, we are coming up from the barn, which is off to the side and in front, and we enter the house through the garage, so utility needs to be in the front of the house, close to the garage door. The utility room also serves as the kennel, and the dogs go out in the morning to potty area through the garage.

cupofkindness, we have a sink in our current bar area, and it is never used, and we wish we'd had counter space instead. (I thought it would be a good idea too, but wasn't really useful for us.)

With just the two of us 99% of the time, I don't have many traffic considerations. :)

I am giving serious thought to a wine fridge. We had one at our last place but not here, and I miss it.

We really don't do much entertaining, and keep largely to ourselves, so there's not much need for an area for a large buffet, but I will keep your idea about the prep sink in mind. It seems like people either hate them or love them, and are also very differing in opinion on where they should go.

Thanks for the ideas! I have made a lot of changes based on the input I have received.

It sounds like you have some very specific needs. You're doing well to think through how YOU really live. Good luck.

Love your wine bar! Have you thought about putting a prep sink next to the stove instead of a pot filler?

I have a friend who put a shower the bathroom off their garage for the pool bathroom. As a guest, I can take a quick shower after using the pool/hot tub. They also use the shower to wash the dog's feet if they are muddy from walks.

Also I noticed the master bathroom sink is in front of the closet door. You'll be bumping into each other... I'd put a sink in the toilet/bidet room so the shower and tub feel like a separate room in Japanese bathrooms.

ILoveRed, I had thought about that (the higher seating), but we are both tall, so it's not a very big step up, but that's a very good point. I may have to revisit that idea.

reff31, we do have a much different lifestyle than most people, so it does make it hard to design because our own needs are not the same as the vast majority of people's who are building a home, but I have gotten some really great input that has made a huge difference in my planning, and I have completely redone the kitchen, which was a mess. (It still needs some tweaking.)

Cherie, I think that's not a bad idea of the prep sink by the cooktop. I tire of balancing things on my cutting board or dripping across the floor from the sink to the cooktop in order to get from prep to the stove. I am going to give that some thought. It would solve a couple of issues.

I am going to have an outdoor shower by the pool. I have one now and absolutely adore it. I have a pretty outdoor table with shower gel and shampoos, and keep some fluffy towels in the sunroom I can grab on the way out. There is nothing like taking a shower outside in the sunlight! It's also great to rinse off after working outside and then jump in the pool for a refreshing dip without even having to go into the house.

The master bathroom has two separate vanities - one for each of us. The bathroom is actually the same configuration we have now, and works very well for us. My husband has a home office and stays well clear when I am getting ready for work in the morning, lol.

mama goose, I meant to snap a pic of our current two-level island last night but forgot. In looking at the photo of one similar to mine, it seems welcoming for a drink but not for a meal. (If that makes sense?)

Hmmm, that's a problem for me. I think I may have to move the prep sink from the island to the counter, and make the island a combo of smaller prep/serving space and regular dining height seating. I agree with everyone it's not going to work well to try and have a giant elevated bar height seating space there.

Or back off on my island size altogether and combine it with a separate table and seating at the back of it as suggested earlier.

Edited to add, I think I may have found the perfect solution - I really like this idea a lot!

How wide/deep do you think this island is?

There's plenty of room on the great room side to extend seating in that direction.

Here's a photo similar to what I have in mind for the microwave.

Here is the latest, after incorporating a LOT of your feedback - thank you!

I reduced the depth of the island to 3'6" and we'll put seating in front of it. (We won't need seating for more than 2-3 people.)

I do realize the utility room was awkward. I took the powder room out and put it in the alcove with a pocket door.

This solves a BUNCH of problems, including being able to now do away with the other first floor powder room and allow for easy access to it from outside.

That enabled me to shorten the utility room, which will make more room in the garage for an area for our farm clothing/boots that don't come in the house.

I also turned the closet to open to the front and be covered by a sliding door. This closet is small, but we live in a temperate climate, and it's just the two of us. It only needs to accommodate a few items. We don't need or want a door for the utility room, but in case we need one for some reason, the closet door can be slid over temporarily.

Thanks so much, everyone, for your great input and ideas - you have all been so helpful.

If this is where you’ll age in place, consider raising your dishwasher or doing

From the "New to Kitchens? Read Me First!" thread:

4. Kitchen Design Guidelines/Best Practices…These threads discuss recommended guidelines and best practices for a functional Kitchen design:

• FAQ: Kitchen Work Zones, What Are They?: https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5500762/faq-kitchen-work-zones-what-are-they
• FAQ: Aisle Widths, Walkways, Seating Overhangs, Work/Landing Space etc. (contains minimums): https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5500771/faq-aisle-widths-walkways-seating-overhangs-work-landing-space-etc
• FAQ: How Do I Plan For Storage?: https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5500787/faq-how-do-i-plan-for-storage

adalisa, I am thinking of going with either a dish drawer in the island or a double dish drawer setup. We rarely use the dishwasher.

Buehl, thank you for the info - off to check it out.