Can you include dimensions?

Do you really need/want island seating and a table right next to each other?

Dimensions would be helpful. Do you have a dedicated pantry elsewhere (I see something that might be a pantry in the mudroom, but I'm not sure)? Also, are you someone who has a lot of pots/pans/gadgets/cooks a lot, or are you a simpler cook who just has/needs room to store the basics?

We'd sit at the island more than the table, especially the kids for non-dinner meals. Could scoot the island closer to the sink, possibly?

Yes, there is a pantry in the mudroom area. I like to cook and bake from scratch, but tend to stick to simpler recipes. The cabinet space in this current design adds about twice as many lower cabinets and about the same amount of uppers as I had in the house we just sold.

bump, anybody? Do I need to add elevations?

I'm looking more closely at your plan and I have more questions! Is the porch shown at the front of the house? With the front door leading into the kitchen? Or is that a back/side porch? If so, where is the front entrance? I have a feeling we are missing part of the first floor layout here.

IMO, 5' is too great a distance between island and sink, if the island is going to be a primary workspace. Are you (or your spouse or child) typically the sole cook, or do you like to cook together? Why do you want to include seating on the island? Will the island be fixed or moveable? Will there be electrical outlets on it?

The island and table are too close together. You need about 60" between the table and island. You could shift the island toward the main sink. But I wouldn't go smaller than a 4' main aisle which still leaves the space tight between the island and the table. If you shift the table toward the great room then it's not centered on the doors-windows.

How wide is the wall behind the range? Are you doing just a 30" vent over the range? As in your inspiration pict, you'll likely need breathing room for the range and may want to look at 36" vent. Check specs for your range bc some require distance to combustible material, like window trim.

i would have sink run upper cabinet die into the range wall rather than turn the corner.

where is mw?

I would add a prep sink to island.

Do you want the porch door to directly enter the kitchen? If you moved the garage mud door and relocated the washer/dryer/pantry in the mud room, the porch entrance could be in the mud room.

Are you planning on having cabinets under your island, because if you are and are planning counter height seating, then 12" of legroom is too shallow. You need 15" minimum.

You need only 4' between island and whatever sticks out the most on your perimeter. I would move the island so it's only 4' from the sink and fridge and then add the 3" needed to the island for seating.

Your layout in terms of fridge, sink, stove is good.

A couple more thoughts (some unrelated to the kitchen).

Most likely the barn door closing off the master bath/guest bath will never happen. Is there a way to instead create a separate entrance from the bedroom?

You have very little master closet space. Will that be enough for the two of you?

It looks like by putting the dresser in the bedroom you won't have enough space to walk around. I'd hate to be that person needing to use the bathroom in the middle of the night. If it was me, I'd be constantly banging my shins on either the bed or the dresser.

If that's your master bathroom, if you ever intend to sell, I'd make the bath into a shower. That way it doesn't limit who can buy the house and more adults prefer a shower without having to step over a bath ledge. Plus if anyone is ever disabled for a short time (broken leg for example) it will be easy to use the downstairs bathroom.

Are you ok coming in the house and passing by laundry?

Might there be a way to move laundry from your master suite to the laundry room without having to walk around the staircase and through the edge of your kitchen?

That staircase with the angled stairs are considered more dangerous than straight stair treads. Can you switch to a true switchback staircase?

What will the area behind the garage be?

You don't say where you are, but I see the majority of your windows will be facing north. That means your windows in your main living area are facing north and west. If you're anywhere warm, that means your living room will be quite warm for a majority of the year. (I'm in the south and minimized windows on my west facing elevation.) Even in NY, the sun late afternoon during the summer is unbearable.

OK, trying to answer questions.

Porch is at the front of the house. That door would be used pretty much exclusively by quests as our family would enter through the garage, aka not used very much. My husband doesn't want the door entering into the mudroom it will probably be a messy space and he doesn't want that to be the first impression for guests. You might notice there is a man door on the front of the garage, we would use that for our main family entry. I had originally wanted a kind of entry vestibule at the main entry but we are trying to keep costs in check.

I'm typically the sole cook, my husband does not cook at all. The kids sometimes help with the baking.

Would like seating at the island for kids to eat breakfast, lunch. At our last house, the table tended to get tied up with kids projects / homework the vast majority of the time.

Was planning on the island being fixed, with outlets for prep appliances and the microwave. Planned on it being 42" tall, as I am nearly 6' tall and doing a lot of prep work at lower heights fatigues my arms.

Had planned on just a 30" vent hood over the range. That's about the maximum allowed by the current placing of the windows with trim. Could potentially make the window a little narrower, or move the stove a bit.

I would love to add a prep sink to the island, but as of right now we are trying to reduce costs rather than add them.

That bathroom is the only bathroom on the main floor, so it needs to be accessible to everyone with out going through the bedroom. I don't want to loose cupboard space to another door from the bedroom. I'd be fine without the barn door, but I'm pretty free wheeling that way. That door was my husband's suggestion, although I doubt he'd actually use it either.

We are coming from sharing a 4' wide closet. This one will seem luxurious, lol! I'm pretty minimalist with my clothing, so I don't think it will be an issue.

I also don't like it there, but that's my husbands dresser and he won't give it up. I'd rather just use the closet and the 2 nightstands which have 3 drawers each. He sleeps on that side of the bed, so its his shins.

We do plan on this being our forever house, (3.5 acres adjacent to 240 acres of my grandfathers land, which we will have an opportunity to buy someday.) I love taking long soaking baths, so that's not negotiable for me.

I'm fine with our family going through the laundry room.

Moving laundry through the living area is not a problem for me.

I have struggled with the stair. I could make it a true switchback, but I'd have to do that buy adding one more tread to the bottom, which I think would be a tripping hazard.

Area behind the garage is back yard / dog run.

We are in Northern Michigan. I also don't love all the windows facing west, would love to have them south facing for solar gain and light in the winter, but that would mean having them face the road. Our views are to the North and West. If we flipped the house to face the east, we'd be looking at a pole building. We do fortunately have a fairly wooded parcel, so Windows will be partially shaded from the west.

I will attach a new plan with tweaks for the recommendations later today.

Thanks for the feedback so far.

Cut island distance from 5' to 4'

Island overhang 15" instead of the 12" you have.

Decide whether you really want a desk or not, they are generally not well regarded here

The island and table need more space between them

Is one of your cabinets a trash pullout? Ideally it would be between sink and stove

Consider widening windows flanking stove and loosing the upper corner cabinet (have the sink wall uppers dead end into wall)

If I could at all work it, would have a separate shower and tub in master bath, you might be able to fit both rearranging the space some.

Can you at least flip house so that garage is on the west side? This way it would help block the winds coming from the west?

If that is your backyard space behind the garage, how do you intend to get from the house to the backyard? I would want a way in and out of the house itself to the backyard, especially if the kids and dogs are going to be back there. Plus I'd want a way to keep an eye on them.

Might I suggest posting on the building forum and maybe one of the architects might have some suggestions?

Hm, having the main entrance go right into the kitchen seems awkward to me. Is there another place in the house where you could put the laundry stuff, so that the current mudroom could become a proper foyer? Or foyer plus powder room so that the master bath doesn't have to serve the entire first floor? The wall that is currently separating the mudroom from the kitchen could also then be shifted to the left, creating a larger foyer space - maybe even large enough to split it into a separate laundry room and foyer/powder?

Although I agree that east facing windows and a west side garage are better in practice, you see why we don't want the windows to face east to look at the pole building. There is a slider door on the north side of the living room that also goes to the backyard.

Here is a very messy mock up of what it might look like to move the wall between the mudroom and kitchen to make a proper foyer. You don't actually lose any useful kitchen space - the spot that you had designated as a desk becomes part of the powder room/foyer, though. I have no idea if the dimensions of all of this will work as drawn, but you get the idea.

Where do guest coats go? I'd imagine you'd need a spot to hang coats? I would make better use of the desk area. The mudroom pantry is small, awk. It forces traffic around the laundry.

And your guests will get a view right into the dirty laundry with the current set up anyway. The pocket door will be open all of the time for entry-exit, laundry, family coats, pantry....

looks like the front door will hit the frig.

Ok guys, I appreciate all the feed back on the other parts of the house, but they are much less up for debate than the kitchen design. We have been working in this house design on and off for 12 years! And yes, if we had an unlimited budget, and I didn't have to compromise with my husband, there are things I would change or add, but for the most part, this layout very much reflects the best option for how our family lives. I want my desk, before I had that in our other house, everything that came in the door landed on the dining room table, and that made me crazy. I don't want another bathroom to clean. I want my laundry to have windows. For the once or twice a year that we have guests that aren't close family or friends, we can shut that pocket door. I'm ok with the "main" entry coming into the kitchen. We can put a door stop on the millwork panel next to the fridge to keep it from hitting. We have planned a wall mounted coat hook for that piece of wall next to the door sidelite for guest coats.

I have appreciated the kitchen comments and am working on incorporating them into a revised design which I will attach later.

We are focused on other parts of the house because of how they pertain to the kitchen. If you are not interested in changing the layout, the kitchen is basically fine, aside from moving the island closer to the sink and the dining table farther away from all of it. You already stated that this kitchen will give you more storage space than the last one, so no need to add more cabinets, etc.

However, having your main entrance to the house be directly into the kitchen is far from ideal, as is having the master bath be the only bath on the first floor, as is the mudroom/laundry/pantry combo. By improving the layout and flow of all of these rooms, you can greatly improve the usefulness and flow of your kitchen layout as well.

The problem is Kelly, that all parts do relate to one another. And really, the kitchen is the best part of the design.

Also, I'm a fine artist. I create still life drawings and there are times I'll work on a drawing for weeks or even months at a time. By the time I think I have it "perfect", I've invested so much of my time, energy and soul into the drawing, I can't quite see the forest for the trees. Only once I get fresh eyes from a talented friend, can they help point out the areas that might need to be adjusted to make it the best it can be.

I'm wondering if you are at the point where you're so invested in this design you can't see where changes might help to make it work better. That is why I suggested you post the full plan on the building a house forum. To get fresh eyes to maybe help you find even better ways to make what you have work.

To add to the above. You're on a beautiful piece of land yet you're limiting yourself to an attached garage that is the same size as the house and is the first thing you'll see as you drive up. I think there might be better solutions to that, to how your main rooms get light, etc.

But are these other things (additional powder room, formal foyer) ideal for you, or for me? Ideal for resale, or for how our family actually lives? That's why I love being in architecture, you can design a house for how a family actually lives rather than what is "typical" and "good for resale".

Technically, your changes don't really affect how the kitchen is used on a day to day basis, but they do get rid of my desk, pantry, and large family coat closet, which I consider to be essential, and put my laundry in a dark little hole of a room, just to accommodate the once or twice a year guest so they have a larger, formal entry. We are not a formal family our guests are typically very close family and friends that don't care if they enter the house into the kitchen.

I'm not trying to get my panties in a bunch, or throw shade at anybody, I'm just trying to explain how the rest of the house works for how we live. I did come here, to the kitchen forum, to get ideas on the kitchen in the space we have allocated for it, not wholesale house redesign.

cp,

I understand that, fresh eyes and all. But again, sometimes life is about compromise between what's "perfect" and what is actually doable financially. Compromise on parts of the design that are important to me and how they will work with parts of the design that are important to my husband. Yes our garage is large, at my husband's request, for our several ATV's, his motor cycle, our 4 dogs kennels, and for storage. Our site has a high water table, so we can't put a basement in for storage. Our site has wetlands and elevation issues that limit where the house can be. We live in Northern Michigan, its snows six months of the year, attached garages make sense. And I actually like the way the front of our house looks, the porch extends a little bit in front of the garage so the garage isn't the first thing out there.

Thanks for the comments on the kitchen, on aisle space and placement of certain functions, and upper placement. I like this version better.

I've been waffling on that, I sometimes like a dual sink, and I do have a large single bowl in the laundry room for large items. Something to think about...

Hi Kelly, no help on kitchen design, but I wanted to toss out that the architect who designed our small house used winder stairs and they're one of my favorite things.

We had winders on the "servant stair" in our previous house, but they only made an L, not a full turn back. Thanks for letting me know they work well for you!

I still don't think you've got enough space beteeen your island and dining seating. I believe standard practice is that you need 2' minimum to pull a seat back and get out of it, so even at 4 feet, you'd have seats essentially back to back. If you leave them at 1ft as they might be, pulled all the way in, you still won't have 3' ft between them as an aisle.

Dont think we'd typically use both island and table seating at the same time, but if we did need to, we could pull the table out of center temporarily.

3'9" is not enough room between the island and the table. I wouldn't do less than 4' and preferably 5' as stated.

You still need to make the island deeper. 3'3" doesn't account for countertop overhang and you need to measure everything from counter to counter, or if you have something like a door handle on a fridge, from that handle to the counter to get the true aisle widths.

Your outer door needs to open the opposite way as you don't want it opening so you're walking into the wall.

Visually from the exterior I'd move the sink and window over a bit more towards the fridge so on the exterior the window is more centered between the porch and the left side of the house.

In the mudroom, I'd move the window more towards the porch again so it's centered between the edge of the porch and the door frame. In the mudroom, I don't think it will be noticeable if it's not centered on the interior wall, especially with the washer/dryer. Plus it will then give you more wall space to hang shelving, cabinets or even a clothes bar.

A single bowl is usually much better in the long run. You can always put a plastic tub into a single bowl if you need it, but then you'll always have the larger sink if it's a single.

Winders can be a safety issue. Just something to think about.

Hi Kelly,

I think if you could move your dining room windows and table about a foot toward the living room and move the island a foot toward the sink it would give you ample room. You lose a little from the living room but that area is more of a pathway anyway.

I love the look of the windows on each side of the stove. Wish I could do that.

Also, maybe you could build a partition wall (could even be out of 2 x 2 studs with drywall) between the fridge & front door and make the same depth as the fridge. That might give the illusion of a foyer and a small bit of separation.

I would also keep as many trees as close as possible on the west side of your house. I'm temporarily living in a condo right now that has 2 big windows facing west and boy does the sun start to beat in around late afternoon til sunset. I have the same situation at the house I'm getting ready to build & and after a week in this west-facing condo I know I'm going to have to add a pergola or plant some trees in front of the west-facing windows or get really good shades. I do get a killer sunset view though

For what its worth I totally get the desk at the front door. In my previous house everything got dumped on the stairs as the family came in. Drove me crazy!

I also think you'll be glad to have the barn door closing off your master bedroom area when needed. Good idea

"3'9" is not enough room between the island and the table. I wouldn't do less than 4' and preferably 5' as stated"

CPArtist is correct....

We have 4' b/w our peninsula and DR table (only table now) and it's too narrow. When we remodeled, we took down the wall b/w the Kitchen & DR and put a peninsula with 2 seats in place of the wall. We ended up taking some space from the DR (primarily b/c of my KD's measuring mistakes). Unfortunately, when the mistakes were discovered and the space taken from the DR, I forgot to have them move the centered ceiling light/chandelier in the DR - which means that if I center the DR table on the light, I only have 48" b/w the table and peninsula -- and it's too narrow. Even if only one seat is occupied at a time (table or peninsula), it can be tight walking by. I have to make sure the chairs are always pushed in when not in use. (One of my regrets, btw.)

If both are occupied -- no one can get by.

We are unable to move the table when our children were at home b/c we are a tall family and when the table is not centered on the light, we were constantly hitting our heads on the chandelier.

Now that our "children" are at college most of the year, we've moved the table and now have 54" - much better.

Although I will say that 54" hasn't been enough while I've been recovering from a total knee replacement (due to an injury, not age) -- especially when I was using a walker, but even the cane is a bit of an issue (I'm constantly pushing the chairs all the way under the table & peninsula to get by!)

If you're a small family, 54" will probably be enough, but if you or anyone in your family is large, then I strongly recommend 60".

Has anyone posted the links to the Kitchen Design Best Practices/Recommended Guidelines? If not, perhaps if you read them you will understand what people are telling you.

Please check the following resources:

Kitchen Design Best Practices/Guidelines threads - These threads explain best practices/good design guidelines for items such as work zones, aisles, island/peninsula seating, etc. These threads will help you understand questions/comments you will receive.

Layout Help - FAQ for asking for layout help. It has a sample measured layout as well as a description of the other information we need

Read Me thread - Other, helpful information for using and navigating the Kitchens Forum. Especially useful if you are new to the Kitchens Forum!

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Kitchen Design Best Practices/Guidelines threads:

Kitchen work zones, what are they?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638270/faq-kitchen-work-zones-what-are-they

Aisle widths, walkways, seating overhangs, work and landing space, and others

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638304/faq-aisle-widths-walkways-seating-overhangs-work-landing-space-etc

How do I plan for storage? Types of Storage? What to Store Where?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638376/faq-how-do-i-plan-for-storage

Ice. Water. Stone. Fire (Looking for layout help? Memorize this first)

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2699918/looking-for-layout-help-memorize-this-first

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Other resources:

New to Kitchens? Read Me First!

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/4306041/new-to-kitchens-read-me-first

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Layout Help:

How do I ask for Layout Help and what information should I include?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2767033/how-do-i-ask-for-layout-help-and-what-information-should-i-include

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The space between the stove and the island should be increased to 48". Are you measuring from counter to counter edge or are you measuring from cabinet front to cabinet front? If cabinet front, then the spacing will not be 42" but 38" when fully built. Since this is also a walking path you want to make sure you have a minimum of 42" minimum from countertop edge to countertop edge.

I like biondanonima (Zone 7a Hudson Valley) idea for a foyer in your home. Adding space for coats and mail would be easy to do in that configuration and will take away from directly arriving in the kitchen. A wall mounted desk or shelf could take the place of the stationary desk you have in place now. I am from MI and can't think of a home I have been in that does not have a foyer with closets because of all the coats and gear we use all year long! I would really consider it and think about how you should come into a house not how you currently do it now. You have the opportunity to design a really functional space for your family.

Good luck!

homepro01, the mudroom is our family foyer. don't want or need or formal guest foyer. Trust me, we've been though every iteration of plan in that area, including a plan similar to biodanonima's. We decided for that how our family uses the space, it had to many con's and not enough pros.

No problem Kelly. Do you have a larger door for large furniture to come into the house? Like large sliders on the back? I know I ran into an issue with 36" wide front doors when I had my couch delivered.

Good luck with your design!

I had originally left the ceiling beams off the print for more clarity, but have added them back in here to show how some elements are tied to them, like the centering of the dining room table. I hadn't originally had the one from the stair post to the front door, but am showing it here as a possibility to create a more "foyer like" feel at the guest entry. Not sure if I'll retain it, I think I loose too much space a that area.

Kelly,

You did not post a new image.

See above your last comment

It is now visible on my computer but was not visible on my laptop. I don't think the beam adds anything to the foyer space.