If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck... it might actually be a duck.

If the realtor stole your chocolate she probably stole your wine. You don't seem to doubt when or how the chocolate went missing so trust your instinct on the wine.

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I know people want to believe that a realtor wouldn't do this, but I sometimes teach a class on fraud and guess what... it is usually the person who no one believed would do it, that did it.

The first thing I’d do is ask my daughter. Yes she’s my daughter but she has been known to take things from my room and when I asked her she said she didn’t think I’d mind. At least rule it out. Next step security camera. Maybe stage something good and see if anyone bites.

We hesitate to ask my daughter because we find ourselves walking on eggshells around her these days. She is very financially responsible and owns her own townhouse as of 6 months ago. She is very quick to cut anyone out of her life at the drop of a hat. She no longer speaks to any of her aunts or cousins due to imagined slights and refers to anyone as narcissistic and toxic who disagrees with her. She has always been a very confrontational and difficult person. Her boyfriend practices a religion where alcohol is prohibited. The one time he came to dinner at our house my daughter made sure We did not have any alcohol on the table. A neighbor saw him coming out of our garden shed several weeks ago when he borrowed my husbands masonry trowel. My husband made a stink about it because he is very particular about his tools and her boyfriend never asked.

Regarding the chocolates..our realtor is the one who ate them. We laughed about it. I really didn't mind at the time. Once we install our cameras we will rest much easier. We are hiring a professional to install and teach us how they work and use the app. We have decided not to tell my daughter or her boyfriend about the cameras. If they mention it we will have a conversation. At this point we are going to just catch our breath and secure our home and property.

Not sure if you've ever seen this, but it might be worth the pain of
cleaning it up to catch the thief in the act of stealing your wine.

100% agree Jane. I actually came back just to say....what about a cleaning person? Even a former cleaning person? Did a former trusted trades person have a key at one time? (I know of a daughter who gave her boyfriend a key to her parents house. Parents never knew that of course. Girl broke up with boyfriend, and boyfriend's new scuzzy friends used the key to steal a bunch of stuff!)

I trust (almost) no one. Or, maybe it's better to say, I exempt almost no one from scrutiny in these types of situations. Based on the new information about the daughter....she sounds a little unstable (and please don't hate me for saying that tiny spider) - but anyone who flies off the handle like that and cuts family out of their life over imagined insults has some sort of issues. And based on the new info., now we know the boyfriend has taken liberties in the past too.

The security cameras are a very wise move.

Yes, Patriceny. “We walk on eggshells” and “flies off the handle” are good clues about the daughter. It’s hard to discuss this with a family member, but you have to or just resign yourself to your daughter taking her inheritance early, piece by piece.

I don't care if your daughter stole your wine, or if the cleaning lady stole your wine, or if your dog stole your wine. The realtor took expensive chocolates without permission... were the chocolates placed in a bowl like mints at the exit of a restaurant?

You can suspect fifty other people if it makes you feel better and fifty other people might ALSO be guilty. However, you have one person who you know committed larceny.

Here is a free piece of advice for anyone, reading this... One of the many reasons that you don't steal small things, which I hardly consider $200 chocolates a small thing, is because when big things go missing you may be presumed guilty. That presumption exists because you have already shown a willingness to violate that trust and are the party known to be guilty.

I am not advising that you name the realtor in a criminal complaint, but your husband is changing the locks and requesting she not come back in the house... It doesn't sound like a solid foundation for a relationship that requires trust.

So, you know for a fact the realtor stole the box of chocolates? Chocolates pair nicely with a good Cabernet Sauvignon. Just saying.....

Love the glitter Bait!

"My husband has already changed the locks..."

"We have decided not to tell my daughter or her boyfriend about the cameras. If they mention it we will have a conversation."

Do not give your daughter a key to the new locks.

If you feel you have to give your daughter a key, then get an alarm system that has an online app. You and your DH have the master password and you can give different secondary passwords to kids, realtors and cleaning people. The ability for them to use their own password can be limited to certain days and hours, for example the cleaning lady would only have access on Tuesday mornings. With this system you will get a notification every time someone uses their password, so your daughter could never enter your house without you knowing ... and if your daughter doesn't reset the alarm after she leaves ... no problem, you can set/arm it from your app, so you would then know if your daughter tried to re-enter the property later as she would have to use her password again.

Between a smart/monitored alarm and cameras, you will know who is coming/going from your house at all times.

With 3 or 4 bottles missing out of every single one of 11 cases, you're talking about 33 to 44 bottles of wine. She would have had to make several trips in and out of the house. It doesnt seem logical that it was her. This sounds more like someone who was doing this over a long period of time. Either way, you must feel violated. I hope you find out who took it. I have a feeling, you are going to find a lot more stuff missing.

When I was getting caretakers for my husband I was warned that "You have nothing that isn't wanted by someone else. If it's important or valuable LOCK IT UP!" It was very good advice.

Having said that: It sounds to me as well that the wine theft has been occurring over a long period of time. And, 3 rolled carpets?! Q. Just how long was this woman in the house alone to have found and stolen so much?

Perhaps there a good reason your daughter is so touchy about being confronted. And the carpets may be adorning parts of the friend's house.... or her own.

This is why we installed camera in our house before putting it on the market. We disclosed it the fact that there were cameras installed in the listing. We saw some very interesting things. Realtors leaving my doors open despite the fact that we left notes on the doors telling them to close them as we have a indoor cat. Another realtor playing around with our lift system for the TV....it was not included in the sale so he had no reason to play with it. I'd never list my home for sale without cameras again.

Eating the chocolate was WRONG, too!!!

Sounds like at least one addict is involved, maybe two. Might be drugs but more likely to be gambling in my opinion. Addicts are sneaky and manipulative and have lots of practice deceiving friends, spouses and family. It might be the daughter, her mate, both of them together and/or the realtor. Addicts abuse others in different ways and the daughter's behavior towards other family members is not positive. One never wants to be suspicious of their own children but addicts do the most damage to those closest to them.

I'm mystified that a couple who can afford a $20,000 wine collection doesn't have any security system.

The reality is that kids ,especially teens, do steal booze and sometimes other household items from their parents so anything is possible. Many years ago, I worked for a realtor and clients were told to clean out art, silver, jewelry, expensive handbags/belts, etc and all electronics/tools before putting houses on the market. Almost anything can walk away. The police always maintained that household help and scheduling extremely valuable items (like artwork and jewelry) on insurance riders exponentially increased the chance that thieves would target your home, even with cameras. No question, security cameras are a huge help but the only way to guarantee no theft is to remove items—always better to be safe rather than sorry.

I think she should check on her jewleries too.

Luckily I do not have much in the way of jewelry.

From our initial meeting with the realtor she discouraged security cameras. Stating that it could be a legal issue and would make buyers uncomfortable in our home. We did not even bring it up. She is the one who brought It up. We were very naive in dealing with her. She insisted on helping me declutter and insisted on taking my donated items to a small thrift store that benefits animals. One of the volunteers is a friend and when I asked her about receiving my tax deduction receipt she told us they had not received any boxes on the day my realtor said she dropped my donations off. There were 8 boxes of designer clothing, purses and shoes not to mention some beautiful Christmas ornaments made from hand blown glass. My husband asked her about the donations and she told him she just dumped everything off by the door because of social distancing. My question is can she legally charge us a realtor/designer consulting fee?

Do you have any sort of contract with the realtor?

My question is can she legally charge us a realtor/designer consulting fee?

If you believe it could be a problem lay out the facts to your attorney and see what they think.

Here is my 2 cents... without a contract it would be difficult to charge you a fee. Which is different than saying impossible. Generally, the advice that a realtor gives in order to get your business would be considered part of their sales pitch to you. However, the doctrine of unjust enrichment does establish reasonable limits on that. You can't have a realtor paint your house and then claim you don't owe the realtor anything.

Given that, the realtor probably has no reasonable basis to charge you a consulting fee. However, does have some basis to charge you for their manual labor.

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From our initial meeting with the realtor she discouraged security cameras. Stating that it could be a legal issue and would make buyers uncomfortable in our home.

I don't like security cameras in a home and would never have one in a home I was selling. In some states you are not allowed to record audio, as people have a reasonable expectation of privacy in conversations. So be careful about recording audio.

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Most thefts are a crime of convenience rather than planning. Kids seem to steal more because kids have many more opportunities. In businesses most missing inventory is from employees, again this is simply because employees have more opportunities to steal. As a member of the ACFE, I often caution people against assuming that anyone isn't stealing... How many people do you suppose were sure that Rita Crundwell wouldn't steal?

OP, those are two different fees. The Realtor fee(s) are specified in your listing agreement if you have signed one. I never have personally seen "design fees" in a listing agreement, but it's possible that one is in your agreement. Industry practice is that the listing agreement is for sales and marketing fees. Check your agreement. If you don't have a signed written agreement with the Realtor, I would find that very odd for her to work with you without an agreement at all.

As to the security cameras being a legal issue - that's a stretch. Many of the Realtor Associations have come up with a standard form for the listing and showing agents to use when the house has security cameras since security cameras are so common now. It's so common in my area that the default assumption when showing is that there are cameras in use even if you don't see any.

Bry11....in our state of Calif., cameras are perfectly legal as long as you disclose the fact that they’re there. It is still MY home, and if someone doesn’t like being recorded, there has to be a reason. I really don’t care if they like the cameras or not. I saw some things that realtors did in my house that we’re NOT professional. I wouldn’t sell a house without them now.

As to the security cameras being a legal issue - that's a stretch. Many of the Realtor Associations have come up with a standard form for the listing and showing agents to use when the house has security cameras since security cameras are so common now. It's so common in my area that the default assumption when showing is that there are cameras in use even if you don't see any.

Be careful assuming what is true in one state is true in another state. For example, from the National Association of Realtors report of surveillance cameras... In Florida a person may have a security system when a written notice is conspicuously posted on the premises stating that a video surveillance system has been installed for the purpose of security of the premises, or have a video surveillance device that is installed in such a manner that the presence of the device is clearly and immediately obvious.

So I would be hesitant to assume that a blurb in a listing form satisfies conspicuous notice requirement and we should also note that in Florida if you are over 19, an unlawful recording is a 3rd degree felony.

The above is just for video. Many states have an all parties consent statute for recording oral communications where there is a reasonable expectation of privacy.

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Personally, I don't like looking at houses that record my viewing of their home, I would prefer the seller's realtor search me before I leave than have the conversations I have with my wife, partner, or contractor about the property. I don't think the sellers have a right to listen and possibly act on the conversations I have about buying their home. Those conversations are a way to inform other parties on my side of the transaction about my concerns and hear their input, allowing those conversations to then be analyzed by the seller, simply takes away some of my negotiating advantage.

Suppose there is a conversation between spouses where one says they are willing to pay full price and the other says the home has been on the market a while and so they should begin negotiations with a discounted offer first... That is information a seller has no reasonable right to have.

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It is still MY home, and if someone doesn’t like being recorded, there has to be a reason.

Of course there has to be a reason, but that reason doesn't have to mean ill actions or ill intent. Selling houses is about making people feel at home in your space and people are often uncomfortable being completely relaxed in front of cameras. Cameras have an obvious upside, but also a hidden downside.

I really don’t care if they like the cameras or not. I saw some things that realtors did in my house that we’re NOT professional.

So how did that knowledge benefit you? Were you able to recover damages? In the end, what was the financial advantage provided to you by a camera in a financial transaction?

I remember Opaone asked about security cameras before selling his huge home/mansion last year. I am wondering what his choice was.

Begging your pardon, tiny spider, but there have been so many twists and turns in this thread with new and incriminating information parceled out that I’m beginning to wonder if this is a legitimate post.

Or you are naive and are being slowly robbed blind by someone(s).

Yes littlebug, its definitely grown curiouser and curiouser.

@littlebug zone 5 Missouri Perhaps someone is crowdsourcing material for a novel during their pandemic shutdown time?

I'm with littlebug. High end house, $20000 wine collection, Turkish carpets, eight boxes of designer clothing, running off to pick out slabs...but hubby does his own masonry, and no security system?

High end house like that nets what, a 10% commission? Not worth a few bottles of wine and her reputation.

I smell a troll.

High end house, $20000 wine collection, Turkish carpets, eight boxes of designer clothing, running off to pick out slabs...but hubby does his own masonry, and no security system?

Just to be clear, I have some nice hand knotted carpets, a closet full of Zegna from suits and ties to sweaters, I am a little light on my wine collection, but I do have a fairly extensive art collection, much of which is in storage at any one time. I own several masonry trowels and do some of my own masonry work, in fact, I do much of the maintenance on several rental properties. I am also a proficient woodworker.

My security system wouldn't prevent this. Security systems in homes are designed to prevent catastrophic losses by discouraging amateur thieves. They are not designed to prevent thefts by people who already have access to a home. I do have cameras near a few entrances, but my main security system is of the K-9 variety. I have lived in several homes with no alarms at all...

High end house like that nets what, a 10% commission? Not worth a few bottles of wine and her reputation.

I am a member of the Association of Certified Fraud Examiners and I occasionally work with small businesses to prevent or detect embezzlement schemes. Consequences have never been a successful deterrent. Most asset misappropriations come from people with a lot to loose and they are usually stealing things with little gain... 55% of business thefts come from managers and executives and they typically steal 5 times more than employees.

While I understand that those are business thefts rather than personal thefts, the recipe is the same when you are talking about trusted party thefts. I know of dozens of executives making six figures who got fired for padding their expense accounts by a couple of thousand dollars. I saw one guy get fired for using the company credit card to buy his daughter a laptop when his nearly vested stock options were 300 times the cost of the laptop.

I am not saying you are wrong about the trolling thing... I am saying that my experience with trusted party thefts and their prevention is different than yours.

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ETA: If I were in the same situation as the OP I would know it was the realtor and not my kids. I know this because my kids are currently living at home because of Covid-19 and when they polished off a bottle of Kinobi Kyoto the other night they calmly let me know that if I didn't want them drinking the good gin then I should buy more cheap gin. It was at that point that I hid the two bottles of Pappy Van Winkle 23... My kids would undoubtedly drink the wine, show me they drank it and then manage to somehow rationalize it as only fair...

I think it's the daughter, the boyfriend, and the realtor, and I suspect more items are missing. The chocolates incident baffles me, but then I was unaware that $200 chocolates existed!

OP good luck navigating this web.

What a dilemma! I’m betting on the daughter regards to the wine, since it sounds like she has a chip on her shoulder. Although your realtor sounds pretty sketch with regards to the clothing and chocolates. Please share your findings, or how you handled it. In the mean time, tape up that wine!

Why is the Realtor taking your belongings to the thrift store on your behalf? And why not just call them to verify if your belongings arrived there or not? The fact that she ate your unopened designer chocolates tells me a lot about her right off the bat.

We bought the carpets in Turkey some years back. I never implied they were invaluable but they were certainly not inexpensive. Regarding the security cameras. We did buy a 3 pack of ring cameras at Costco and they are up and running. They are motion activated. If anyone walks by a camera a little chime sounds on our cell phones. Very convient. We are keeping them on when we do put our home on the market be because we have art and antiques in the garage. The realtor offered to take the boxes and I thought she was being helpful. My husband believes she kept the items for herself. I really don't care if she did or not but my husband gets worked up about all this. The only thing I care about is distancing ourselves gracefully from this woman. I also avoid the neighbors who sung her praises. My husband went to their house and asked that they return all the tools they have borrowed over the years. Apparently they acted really put out but promised to bring them over on Saturday. We are tired of the endless drama this woman has brought into our lives and are trying to regroup and find a good agent and get our house on the market.

I highly recommend you take the art and antiques currently in the garage (plus any valuables in the house you'd be distraught to lose) to a conditioned storage unit.

Tiny, there are so many red flags here. She stole your chocolates without asking. She doesn't want security cameras (her reasons are nonsense), she insisted on taking your designer items to "donate" (yet they never arrived), And heck NO, unless your signed contract provided otherwise (which I can't imagine), she certainly may NOT charge you a consulting fee.

Yes, you are right. We are seeking another realtor.

Good plan! Please keep us posted and good luck on the sale of your home!

Yes please keep us posted and with your new agent, stipulate that she is not allowed to show the house.

"... and with your new agent, stipulate that she is not allowed to show the house."

How is the house going to be shown to prospective buyers?

@Lindsey_CA You read that the same way I did at first. :) But I think cpartist is saying they should tell their new Realtor to not allow the current problematic Realtor to show the house to any of her clients.

Yes I was saying not to allow the current realtor to show the house. The one who is stealing.

Cpartist,

It's doubtful that the first, unsatisfactory realtor will be showing the home. It could happen. If it were my home, I would request that should she wish to show the house, the new realtor accompany her without saying anything and watch her closely. After all, we are not entirely certain that she has actually done anything wrong.

For that reason, I wouldn't advertise in the MLS that there is a lock box on the door. Rather, I would state in the agent's remarks, easy to show, call agent for access. This way the new agent will be able to screen for that person and control access. The agent could still put a lock box on the house, but the other realtors don't need to know that it is present unless they have a client. Or, the owner can insist as part of their listing agreement that the listing agent or their designee from their brokerage must be present for all showings.

I hate for them to make an worse enemy than is absolutely necessary. Can you imagine how awful this would be if she were innocent and the daughter or her significant other was the culprit?

homechef59 said, "Can you imagine how awful this would be if she were innocent and the daughter or her significant other was the culprit?"

Apparently, from information upthread, the original realtor admitted to eating an entire box of chocolates valued at $200. Also, the OP said, "There were 8 boxes of designer clothing, purses and shoes not to mention some beautiful Christmas ornaments made from hand blown glass." The realtor offered to take the items to a charity to be dropped off but the charity never received them, so it is presumed that the realtor either kept the stuff for herself, or sold the stuff and kept the money.

The realtor may be innocent as far as the missing wine and Turkish rugs are concerned, but she is certainly not completely innocent.

This is ridiculous...cut your losses, chalk it up to experience and use common sense!

#1. find another realtor - simply on the fact she took/ate something not hers, as a supposed "professional", if she doesn't know better than to do that, she don't know jack and she's not worth more than that.

#2**. You and your husband need to inventory and then remove the rest of the wine and anything else of value into storage or a bank deposit box that only you and your husband have access to. That eliminates any further losses.

#3. Now that the locks have been changed, don't give your keys out to your daughter or ANYONE else...why would you need to? But if someone needs access, and anything of value is missing afterward, you can narrow down the suspect pool and see if there's a klepto in the midst who just wants/needs to take things.

#4. Keep the security cameras, disclose their existence and use it as;

A: a selling feature and

B: the footage as evidence against/for any further issues of theft or negligence.

**Finally, remember I said inventory whatever of value you remove to safety...? If any of that goes missing...it's a 50/50 thing who's to blame. Sorry to be blunt, but there's (part) of that common sense I mentioned.

My money is on the daughter.