The anti-vaxers & those who are “not living their lives in fear of Covid-19” are pushing for “heard” immunity. That’s a clue: they don’t know what the he|| they’re talking about.

I love to hear the way very young children make more literal sense. When I served our DS and a friend hot soup, DS cautioned the other boy to wait until it 'warmed off'. (We'd say 'cool off', but it's the heat that's dissipating.)

Does every family adapt 'kid' terms? We still water our lawn with 'binkers' and enjoy an 'abacado' in a salad. It's fun to remember.

chisue, I seldom hear foyer used around here, it's almost always entryway. Or just entry.

Elmer, I think maybe you are talking about the people who settled around the Chesapeake Bay. They are sub groups that still exist that speak a kind of Cockney, I think it is. It is much of the fishermen out there and their families.

We live in the part of the courntry and I can tell you that is it still quite strong and if you spend much of any time out there you are going to hear it.

In Michigan, we like the "r's" in "drawer". They are both pronounced fully. When I lived in NY, I picked up the habit of saying "draw" and I still do.

In NY/NJ they used the phase of going by someone's house. I was confused by it when I first moved there. Where they just driving by or were they going in the house?

In general, when you "go by" somebody's house you are just dropping in to pick something up and then be on your way

"I think maybe you are talking about the people who settled around the Chesapeake Bay."

No, not just them.

It's been 20 years or more since I saw the TV show and read the book and I don't remember all of the details. But there are very traceable typical local (and different) pronunciations around New England, and in the Appalachian hills, and in different communities of the Carolinas, as examples, where the historical record shows pockets of colonists coming from one particular area (some even small) with characteristic habits that survive to this day. Just to take a trivial and obvious example, the Bostonian habit of dropping r's in words (paak the cah) and adding them where they don't belong (pizzer for pizza) trace directly back to a region of England where the local accent is similar and from which some folks traveled to colonial Boston.

I had an aunt who would always say "warsh" for "wash."

I've always found it interesting when people in the northeastern part of the country add an "r" to the end of some words, such as "alpha" and "beta" becoming "alpher" and "bayter." Think how JFK would always say "Cuber." However, they drop the r when it's actually there..."park the car" becomes "pahk the cah." Odd since they clearly can pronounce the r. Does it stem from the British?

Yes

Today on CBS Sunday Morning, Jane Pauley said "Clue Klux Klan" instead of "Ku Klux Klan," but I hear that a lot on TV.

My husbands Italian/American family are prone to adding a "r" to the end of words. They are from the NY/New Jersey area. It seems to be more of a thing done by the older first generation of Italians.

Elizabeth, my Italian/American inlaws also use the term to "go by".

Lars, it sometimes comes out sounding like "clue" when I say it, even though I know better. I think I've heard it mispronounced so much my brain is overwriting the right pronunciation.

JFK's accent was pure Boston...as is Donnie & Mark Wahlberg's. A whole

lot of Irish in Boston who came to America to be free from the English. The

accent may be from an early mixture.

The addition and removal of Rs is NOT typical of how the Irish speak English.

According to the attached link, research by a U Mich English expert located the source. A quote from the piece:

"As more settlers came to the Boston-area from the regions of Southeastern England, where non-rhotic pronunciations were common, R-less words became more evident here, especially in 17th century documents."

Boston accent

My DM was raised in Rhode Island. I don't know if it is still as provincial as when I visited there as a child, but there were definitely little 'pockets' where language was a bit different from the mainstream -- and even from another 'pocket' only a few miles away. I also think the word 'taciturn' could be a state motto.

My DM used to roll her eyes, trying to pry friends out of their shells. She'd driven to Providence from Chicago, but had to *persuade* a pal to meet her for lunch if the place was more than five miles from the friend's home. (Now, it *could* have been the cost of the gasoline! Thrift is another habit that may have 'come over' from England and Scotland.)

This isn't quite the same, but I cringe when people say or write "Wallah!" or "Walla!" instead of "Voila" (pronounced vwahlah).

I defiantly agree with some of these.

Thank you Elmer...I think it is wonderful that it only takes one article to make

you sure of absolutely everything. But you should really read the postings

before wandering off with a UoM English Professor. You answered a question

that basically, was never asked. LOL Go Wolverines, anyway.

anyway.

Dee, I was just coming to post that one. Maybe they are doing it defiantly? Makes you wonder.

Viscous instead of vicious makes me laugh.

"I think it is wonderful that it only takes one article to make
you sure of absolutely everything"

I was originally responding to several other people, not to you. As I said above, I could immediately recall reading one book on the subject and later reflection reminded me of having read 2 others. I found a quick cite concerning what I had said and it was concerning what that expert professor had written.

Edit to add - I'm also a regular listener to the History of English Podcast, reputedly produced by a bookish lawyer who lives in North Carolina. It's probably not something you've heard of - I recommend it.

Your incorrect speculation about an Irish influence in what was being discussed showed you had limited or no knowledge on the subject (nor about accents). Isn't it curious how oftentimes people who know little or nothing about something all the same dispute comments made by people who do have real information or other familiarity, however gained?

One of my favorite old movies is Mr. 880. Edmund Gwen played a sweet old man who lived in a basement apartment of a building with all the young and struggling military wives during WWII. He worried about them trying to get by on so little money with the shadow of the depression still affecting family security. He was an expert counterfeiter, and when a young wife was in need, he would slip her some of his freshly minted dollars. (Back then a dollar went a long way.) Sometimes he would tell the young wife that he would talk to his rich Uncle Henry and gift her with is dollars. The next scene would be dollars drying on a clothesline stretched across the basement. The government came looking for the source of all these dollar bills, and one of the agents commented that the engraving of the plates was expert. (The serial number of his dollars was 880.) However, there was one problem that helped them identify them as bogus. He spelled "Washington" as "Warshington." Donna Reed was the troubled military wife, and you all remember Edmund Gwent who played Santa Claus in Miracle on 34th Street.

One that makes me bite my tongue, itch and scratch. ‘“I need to itch my back”, no, you need to scratch.

^That's like saying, "Can you borrow me some money?"

My mother used to say, "I can hear footprints". No, her hearing was not _that_ acute.

I heard a radio announcer this afternoon misusing a phrase, which misuse always sets my teeth on edge. He said, "It begs the question" when he meant "It gives rise to the question", or "It makes us wonder...". Drives me nuts.

Suzieque - Years ago someone wrote "walla" on a post in the home decorating forum. I was completely befuddled. LOL. It stood alone without a lot of context.

I pondered that one for far too much time. Then thankfully someone came along and asked if she meant voila. A fair bit of hilarity ensued as the writer didn't know what "voila" was, even though that is indeed what she meant.

colleen, I'm not sure I understand the issue with 'it begs the question'...the dictionary defines it: raise a question or point that has not been dealt with; invite an obvious question.

because I enjoyed Merriam-Webster's explanation of "forte", I looked up their take on "Begs the question." A fun little read on the origin and evolving meaning of the phrase. I had no idea it started as a mis-translation of a Latin phrase.

Annie, this explains my position on "begs the question" fairly well:

“The strict, traditional meaning of “beg the question” is

to base a conclusion on an assumption that is as much in need of proof
or demonstration as the conclusion itself “

In English
it’s often referred to as circular reasoning or circular argument. Garner
gives some examples:

“Reasonable people are those who think and reason intelligently.” (This
statement begs the question. What does it mean to think and reason
intelligently?)

“Life begins at conception, which is defined as the beginning of life.”
(This comment is patently circular.)

[T]he use of beg the question to mean raise another question
is so ubiquitous that the new sense has been recognised by most dictionaries
and sanctioned by descriptive observers of language. Still, though it is true
that the new sense may be understood by most people, many will consider it
slipshod.”

And I’m one of the people who considers it slipshod. IMO it’s mutated to this new usage because
the people who first started using it that way had no idea what it actually
means (it’s a debating term) and thought it sounded “educated” as did those who
copied them.

colleenoz

to base a conclusion on an assumption that is as much in need of proof
or demonstration as the conclusion itself “

~~~~

Meaning -- it raises the question -- right?

Colleen -- I'm not sure I understand your objection. I'll bet I'm older than most of you here and read pretty widely. I've heard this phrase all my life and understood it to mean just that -- "it raises the question" or "you need more proof than this." You say it's new -- how new? I'm interested but research is out of the question right now. thanks.

"Meaning -- it raises the question -- right?"

Not right. If you look at the examples, they show that the "reason" given for the conclusion reached is essentially the question rephrased.

"Fruits and vegetables are part of a healthy diet. After all, a healthy eating plan includes fruits and vegetables"

"Smoking cigarettes can kill you because cigarettes are deadly."

"Raise the question" means the statement gives rise to a related, legitimate question:

"Spending the summer travellling visiting Europe is a great idea, but it does raise the question of how we can afford it.

I can't say how "new" the "raises the question" meaning has been in use, but an educated guess is say, end of the 1800s or around the early 1900s.

nickel, I just went back to this thread and saw your comments. As French was my first language, I had never heard 'forte' pronounced as 'for-tay.' But outside of my relatives, I almost always hear it pronounced that way. I think many people realize the word is of French origin, put perhaps assume it ends with l'accent aigu, so they replace the silent 'e' with an 'ay' sound. When I took music in high school, the teacher told us that Italy later began to use the French word 'forte' to define strong music. But in Italy they pronounce the (French) silent 'e' as an 'ay' sound.

So although technically, the word should only be pronounced 'for-tay' when referring specifically to music, most people always pronounce the word that way, since the musical definition usage, did not bother to change the French spelling. Understandably confusing, to many! The funny thing is, I never try to correct anyone when they say 'for-tay' with no reference to strong music, but they often try to correct me in such an instance and say "Oh, you're saying it wrong, it's 'for-TAY." Only then will I politely explain that in fact, it is only pronounced 'for-tay' if one is referring to strong music.

Amicus, after reading your & Elmer's discussion of the ways to pronounce the French 'forte' I realized that I simply pronounce it "Fort" exactly as I'd say "Fort Knox," not even thinking of an actual French language pronunciation. Sometimes, it's best to just keep it simple. Even if it means accepting that some of the richness of your language is being lost.

Among other things I still remember, one bit of wisdom I learned from a particular English professor I had in college ages and ages ago went something like this:

"If something you've written or are about to say may seem or sound odd or awkward to your audience, use other words to express the thought".

There are many different ways to describe something someone does particularly well, try those instead!

I like to say forte as for-tay because it makes me feel fancy and as if I could actually speak French. ;-)

nickel and Elmer, when in the company of others IRL, I agree with your advice of 'just keep it simple' and Elmer's suggestion to '...use other words to express the thought.' I try to remember to say something 'is not my area of expertise' or maybe 'not in my wheelhouse' to avoid using forte, as I know that not adding an 'ay' to the ending, sounds strange to the majority.

I think we'd all agree that misusage of phrases, pronunciation and grammar is something preferably not pointed out to someone as they are speaking, especially in the presence of others, as it might come off as condescending. In a discussion about such things, offering the correct usage for a phrase, pronunciation or grammar, is usually understood as it is intended, which is simply to share information or clarification.

Personally, I definitely want to be corrected though, if I'm misusing a phrase, mispronouncing words, or using incorrect grammar, as I've discovered I'd rather feel momentarily foolish, than remain blissfully ignorant, because no one ever bothered to inform me. I can't believe I went almost 40 years mispronouncing the simple word onion, until someone finally pointed it out to me. Yikes, I'm guessing I probably mispronounced it a thousand times, lol!

Now I *have* to ask, how does everyone say 'onion'? (I say UN-yun. My grandpa used to say OHN-Yon when he was playfully talking with the german accent he grew up with.)

I also say "UN-yun." Your grandpa's pronunciation makes me think of Justin Wilson. For those who don't remember, he was a Cajun chef. Along with "ONNNNYYYYYYON," he would also say, "I GAR-ON-TEE!"

I had a friend who CONSTANTLY corrected me for not pronouncing the T in "often". I clearly recall being taught in school that it is silent.

"My grandpa used to say OHN-Yon when he was playfully talking with the german accent he grew up with."

Onion in German is zwiebel.

I believe the English word onion comes from French (as so many food words) which is oignon, pronounced close to the English pronounciation. The gn makes a Y sound and the last n is silent, as with most consonants that end words.

A funny pattern in English. A few food animal words come from Germanic influences in English, while the food equivalent comes from French.

Animal is cow (ku), food is beef (boeuf)

Animal is pig or hog or swine (schwein in German), food is pork (porc)

@Elizabeth, Merriam Webster gives both pronunciations but the silent t is given first. I was taught that when using a dictionary, the first listed pronunciation is preferred while the second in acceptable. Tell you friend that while her pronunciation is merely acceptable, yours is preferred. 😉

After being advised that I was saying 'onion' wrong, I've pronounced it as 'UN-yun,' like nickel and chloe. The best way to convey how I said it formerly, would be similar to the 'ei' sound in the word 'heist' or maybe in the German number 'eins.' So I'd say 'onion' more similar to 'ein-yin' than to 'un-yun.' I think perhaps my mother pronounced it that way, but I'd have to ask my siblings how they say it. Maybe I'm the only one who misheard it initially, and said it wrong for decades!

"A funny pattern in English. A few food animal words come from Germanic influences in English, while the food equivalent comes from French."

I believe that is because the Germanic Saxons were the peasants who looked after the animals, while the Norman French speaking lords were the ones who ate them.

My family pronounced onion as "ong young". No idea where that came from. I say un-yun.

I feel this is an impordant discussion.

Colleenoz, Elmer -- I've heard that too, about peasant/lord word origins. I hadn't thought about the animal/food connection. Possibly also related to class?

Fun stuff, how words evolvate. (My DD caught the Pokemon bug real early. With good care, pokemons evolve into more powerful forms. Somehow DD didn't think 'evolve' was a good enough word, so she added the '-ate.' We still kid her about things evolvating.)

DH's HS baseball coach began each season by asking the boys if they had their EEEN-shur-unce on file. (We say "in-SHUR-ance".) One of his Air Force Reserve sergeants proudly directed the men's attention to the "Spanish fake-aid" of an historic building at the base. (Here's an instance where no one is fool enough to correct someone in authority -- who will continue to embarrass himself.)

My late MIL, an RN, was hospitalized once where aide not only began a bed bath at 'the bottom', but insisted she could not refuse a medicine (not prescribed to her) because, "It's detrimental!" Inadvertently, she was right! (Don't you love words like 'inadvertently'? Where's the root of that one?)

I think it was the Norman conquest in general that brought so many French words into English but I'm not sure. I cited a curious example of a few related words but the uncountable number of food related words and the many other words of all kinds are much more numerous than most people realize. I don't know and didn't look for the answer but I wonder if words of French origin outnumber words from any other single source.

In return, many English words are used as shortcuts in French. Not so much incorporated into the language as with other words but rather for colloquial, informal use. A typical comment among co-workers on Friday afternoon is to say "Bon weekend", the meaning of which is obvious to an English speaker. You wear "un smoking" (tux) to formal affairs, leave your can in "le parking", work up "le business plan", and on and on.

Elmer, do you think there might be more words of Latin origin than French? I have no idea, but I did take Latin the last year it was offered at my high school, and it does seem like many words today sound like they might have Latin origins. Oh, I think I recall now that our Latin teacher told us many French words derive from Latin, so perhaps I just answered my own question.

Yes, could be. My understanding is casual and very limited, not more. Of the little I know, it may seem that French was the delivery system for many words of ultimate Latin root or origin.

Here's something I just found in a search, a quick abstract and a link to the source page for more info. Old English, pre-1066, was Anglo-Saxon (Germanic) in origin. Then:

" Nonetheless, the largest transfer of Latin-based (mainly Old French) words into English occurred after the Norman Conquest of 1066, and thus in the Middle English rather than the Old English period."

A lucky guess on my part, I usually don't guess and make it clear a speculation is just that.

Old English wiki page