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Remodeling Design Dilemma Bathrooms

Curbless shower--why do if bathroom isn't big enough for wheelchair

3 years ago

We're about to re-do a main floor bathroom in a townhouse. It's the typical 40 year old design--small bathroom (probably 5 x 8) with a tub across the wall opposite the door, and a 40" vanity next to a toilet on the longer wall perpendicular to the tub. There is a concrete foundation under the room.

We're replacing the tub with a shower. Initially I was intrigued by the idea of making this a curbless shower so we could be pro-active about use as we age (which is getting much much closer every day). But, I know doing curbless means more money because the concrete has to be chipped out to be lowered. And, as I think about it, the room really isn't large enough for a wheelchair anyway so we'd have to walk to get into the room. And, in reality, I'd assume if someone has to walk into the room that person would also be able to step over the typical 3" curb for a shower.

Are there any reasons to create a curbless shower if the entire room can't be full-fledged handicapped accessible?

Your thoughts? Thanks.

Featured Answer

Anna (6B/7A in MD)

3 years ago

last modified: 3 years ago

Since I work with such people, I’m going to tell you to do the curbless shower. And a transport chair is not a solution as the individual cannot self-propel the chair and will always require someone to push it unless they use their feet to propel and that is hard enough.

And if going this route, absolutely prepare the space for grab bars in the shower, an ADA toilet with a swing-away grab bar or at least space around the toilet that would allow a frame with armrests to be placed. If you plan to age in place here, prepare it. Good luck.

ETA: saw your walker question so I wanted to address. A walker will normally fit through the doorway, depends on the age of the home. Some people need to maneuver sideways essentially walking like a crab through the door. Some can manage that, some cannot. In addition, if a wide walker is needed (heavy duty) those are wider than a standard walker and will require larger doorways.

I tell my patients that we need to prepare the space for their bad days, not their best days because even on their worst days they will still need to use the bathroom, get to the kitchen, etc.

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Comments (16)

PRO
Patricia Colwell Consulting
3 years ago
IMO a waste of money for no real advantage
PRO
Sabrina Alfin Interiors
3 years ago
I'd do it for two reasons: aesthetics and function.

If you plan to age in place in your current home (or plan to sell your home to someone who will), a barrier-free shower is ideal for people with limited mobility, even if they are not using a wheelchair. Having to step over shower curbs when you're elderly is a trip and fall hazard, so having an even floor is really beneficial. If you're going this route, ask your contractor to also put in the blocking behind the wall for grab bar attachments, even if you don't plan to put them in right away. This way, the support is there and you won't have to rip out tile later on in order to build the support back in.

And personally, I love the way barrier-free showers look. They're cleaner looking and they make your bathroom feel bigger.
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Mommielady, I'm in Love with the curbless shower, even a year later! Not only does it have the appearance of making the room seem more open, with no curb to step (or trip) over on the way in/out, it's easy access. My Dad had problems with his hips in his old age, my mom has problems with her knees, and I have at times been physically handicapped enough to know that a shower you can simply walk into is much easier than one you step into. With aging and genetics being what they are, I was going to make it as easy on myself as I could. (If I'm ripping out the rest of the bathroom, well then why not?) Also, water does sometimes go beyond the opening, and a curb would make it seem more of a problem than if I expected it to stay within certain boundaries, especially since there's no door on the shower. I don't plan on being in a wheelchair, but I know how easy my shower is to access for anyone (even to bathe the dog). I would do it again in a HEARTBEAT. Is the end result of going curbless worth the headache of removing pre-existing concrete? It was for me, absolutely. If your contractor doesn't have experience with this however, I would find someone who does. Removing the concrete seems less problematic to me than getting the right slope on your mudbed so the drain will handle the water in the shower. You absolutely need someone with experience at this, so pick your tile guy carefully. Yes, the drain is off-center. Being centered, especially with two straight and a bowed wall didn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. What matters is the slope of the floor which allows the water to drain. The only way to get that is to build it from scratch. No, it wasn't hard for my tile guy to get the slope, although he had experience. They did have to tear out to the sub-floor so there'd be enough room to run the heated floor into the shower. I particularly love this because it dries the shower floor and I've never had an issue or mold or mildew. Again, setting a heated floor mat into your mud bed can be tricky so you really want someone who is experienced and will assume some liability with the company who manufactures the floor mat (I used Sun Touch). That way if there are problems, you have someone who knows where the problems can arise, and which path to take. What I saved on keeping the shower doorless (by not purchasing a frame-less glass door) allowed me to use the savings on the heated floor. I'm sorry, I couldn't back up enough in my small bathroom to get a picture of the entrance with my camera! It's very small, which is why I love so much having the feeling of even a little more open space. I hope this helps you.
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azmom - I think you are doing exactly what you need to be doing and that is entertaining all possibilities. I'm having some difficulty with suggesting options because I don't remember if you said you were more traditional or contemporary in your style preference. Here's a drawing - pardon the stuff that I used because I am familiar due to my recent remodel. I also reversed the walls, before I learned you were in Arizona. That's a horizontal Ikea upper cabinet in lower right hand corner. I still think you would like 18 inch depth - would give wider aisle and also allow a 36 inch door to be used that is great for ADA requirements (and resale?). Guess I've written a book below. I'm still in a philosophical mode about how much I'm enjoying our new bath. Hope you get to that point to. (Also, my husband is out of town so I have more time, LOL). Sorry image is a bit light. background: The curbless shower will put you in the direction of contemporary but of course by your choice of vanity and accessories, that can modify things some. 5X5 is standard ADA size and ADA definitely supports curbless - rules are even more lenient for curbless if you do 5X5 or at least is parts of the county according to Mongo (see other threads on this subject). Lot of people think they are going to feel the slant, (my girlfriends were surprised that the whole floor wasn't slanted, LOL). It really isn't a significant slant yet, the water drains quite well even with all three fixtures running. That said, I'm pretty sure I would know exactly what I would want with your bath but then I'm not you, am I? I'm kind of new at this suggesting part in case it isn't obvious. Hard for me to remember this is someone else's bathroom. LOL I also am having some trouble because I don't think you mentioned your budget. On our bathroom, I had decided from the beginning that I was willing to spend on structural changes because these would be much more difficult to change later. So lots of things were moved at least a foot or two one way or the other. I was lucky my DH didn't object - he was so glad to finally be getting a bathroom - it had been in a demolished state for some time. I also was lucky with my contractor, I would suggest things and most of the time, he would say something like "that's easy". I've NEVER had a contractor like that so I can't expect others to have a contractor like this. For example, on our tiny master bath he is doing now, we were talking about the tile floor. We'll be doing porcelain plank again and I asked if slanting the tile took more tile. He said no, he thought a minute and said actually it took less, LOL. I have heard many opinions to the opposite of this, perhaps because this is "plank", it might make a difference but what I'm beginning to understand is that my contractor is exceptional and seems to minimize the work rather than exagerate and charge me more - and I am more and more grateful every day. So, my next point is about going with a curbless shower. I live in a major metropolitan area but I would not have considered this curbless shower without having a lot of confidence in my contractor. So if there is a possibility of your not having a skilled contractor with previous experience doing this kind of work, you might consider hesitating. The size of our shower is 5X5 which is perfect IMO. We have a fixed shower head one side and hand held on the other which can be reached easily. (rain shower in the middle which we do use occasionally but it was more for fun than practicality). The footprint size minimizes the spillage outside the door. What I have prized the most about our bath is in priority order: 1. the light color of wall tile and therefore spa-like ambience 2. not having a shower door - this is more wonderful than I could have possibily imagined. And my husband loves it too. Saves quite a bit of money too - not spending on the glass probably covered the extra cost of the wall mounted toilet. But we weren't sure so we had wall built such that we could add door later. Not going to happen now that we have enjoyed it without door. 3. And what I get most compliments from others about the bathroom is the floor - they like the plank and they like the slant and they like the color - think it adds a little subtle drama. But I heard my contractor talking (not to me) about the floor and because our house is pier and beam it was VERY important that the floor tile be VERY flat. He didn't want me ordering tile on the web for delivery because he wanted to check it out before it was paid for. 4. I like feeling somewhat prepared for the future if one of us is wheelchair bound or disabled (hopefully temporarily). I have broken my foot three times in my life time and wish I could have had this shower then. 5. I really like the wall mounted toilet brush. What I like least about our bathroom is the wall mounted toilet. I find it necessary to use the brush a lot more often than I did with our old floor mounted toilet. The brand we purchased is Toto but I have read complaints on the web about Duravit also. Apparently, somehow the structure of the bowl (not width but depth) is more narrow because it is wall-mount and allows for less water to be in the bowl between uses - thus causing the wall to be drier (this is my conclusion, I haven't read this part). But I and do love being able to clean the floor beneath the toilet and I'm having another one put in for the remodel of our master bath so I'm not so disatisfied that I regret. 6. FYI - 5'X 5' is the standard Size for ADA - it allows for different rules concerning floor slant if you go with this size. We have a linear drain and there is no problem with slant. Here it is in progress of being tiled. Doing a linear drain costs a little more than a center drain. But the sleekness of having the drain not obvious is quite nice. I'm not sure functionally, that it contributes except if you were in a wheelchair, my contractor tells me you don't have to "fight" the floor when turning the wheel chair. I wouldn't know. p.s. don't forget to have a large mirror (or two cabinets side by side) - great way to open up space and give more storage if medicine cabinets.
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cooper8828
3 years ago
When my elderly neighbor broke her pelvis and was using a walker, she kept a spare walker inside her kitchen door. The door was too narrow to get the walker through, so she walked to the door and transferred to the other walker. I can see how having the curbless shower could work in the future. And if the need ever arises you would already have the biggest obstacle addressed.
PRO
BeverlyFLADeziner
3 years ago
Transfer chairs will fit through most doors.

Anyone who requires a wheelchair needs a transfer chair also because wheelchairs weigh about 53lbs, and it is too heavy to lift into a car oftentimes.
Bruce in Northern Virginia
3 years ago
I don't really like the look of many barrier free showers I've seen, but I think that's because they are often built like something for a retirement home - very institutional and bland.

We went through this debate with a recent renovation, and came up with a compromise for a 48"x34" shower. I used a Kerdi shower pan with the lowest perimeter height I could get, and then they laid the stone shower threshold a little above the tile that is on the shower floor We still have about a 3" step-in height, but its lower than many showers.

I also installed 2x8 blocking centered at 36" all around the shower, and up and down the side walls where you might mount vertical grab bars. We installed a Kohler shower rail that has both a standard shower head and a hand shower. We are using a shower curtain with a curved rail so that you get more elbow room when in the shower, and there is no door to work around. This shower won't meet ADA standards, but its a very easy step-in, has grab bars (not yet installed in the pictures), and provides the space needed for one person and maybe even a helper to assist in showering.

Bruce
julieste
Original Author
3 years ago
You've all given me a lot of things to think about, many that I had never considered.

A couple more questions regarding curbless:

In a small bathroom with a shower that will measure about 60" by 30" (replacing tub), will water on the rest of the bathroom floor be an issue? I can see how this would also be a slip hazard.

A transfer chair or walker could get in the door and up to the shower. Right? We had already planned to install grab bars (I've found several models that are attractive and don't look institutional) in the shower. Should I also add blocking in case I'd want to add a bar(s) along the wall plain opposite the vanity so this could be used as an aid in getting to the shower?
PRO
Sabrina Alfin Interiors
3 years ago
No, if the barrier-free shower is done correctly, there will be a slight slope toward the drain which should handle the flow of water. You can also put in a single glass panel to keep water spray inside the shower space.

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You could put in a full glass enclosure with a door, but that somewhat defeats the purpose of getting in/out of a shower if you might also be juggling a walker.
julieste thanked Sabrina Alfin Interiors
PRO
BeverlyFLADeziner
3 years ago
Kohler has Choreograph that has well-designed grab bars that also function has shelves in the shower to hold products.
julieste thanked BeverlyFLADeziner
Lyndee Lee
3 years ago
I would use a combination towel bar and grab bar. That wall is the obvious location for a towel bar and use one designed to be sturdy to be a grab bar. Also be sure to add a toilet paper holder with built in grab bar
julieste
Original Author
3 years ago
Sabrina--Thank you for including those photos because those bathrooms are just about exactly the size and layout I am talking about. It gives me a good visual of the possibilities if I decide to go that curbless route.

Another question after looking at those photos. I assume it is not possible to just use a curtain with a curbless shower.

The layout of our bathroom causes an issue for us because the shower head is on the opposite wall from the toilet wall. If I were to use just the solid piece of glass as is shown in the photos above, we'd have to access the shower next to the toilet. Won't work.

A slider would have a track on the floor thus defeating the idea of curbless. I suppose a pivot door could maybe work. I've stayed in a few too many places in Europe that had curbless wet room design but also had water all over the floor after a shower. This doesn't appeal to me. Thanks.
PRO
Sabrina Alfin Interiors
3 years ago
Without seeing a floor plan of your bathroom, it’s tough to make a solid recommendation. A shower curtain would defeat the purpose of making your bathroom feel larger, unless you always kept it open after use. Not as clean looking.
suedonim75
3 years ago
If you are tearing up the bathroom, why not have the shower head moved to the other side?
julieste
Original Author
3 years ago
Thank you for all the advice. Now, after mulling it all over, I am almost back to where I started from with this conundrum.

This is a situation where I am remodeling a bathroom and want to not spend a lot of extra money to get a curbless shower set up. And, it's remodeling a bathroom for a "what if" situation, rather than knowing that there is already a disabled person in the household who definitely needs this accommodation. It's also a scenario where I am starting to see the snowball effect with one change starting to trigger another. And, most importantly of all this is existing construction on a concrete slab and in a condo association where we would need to get permission to cut into the existing slab.

I guess I need to decide whether or not spending the extra money to have a bathroom that would be accessible via walker or transfer chair would be worth it. Adding grab bars and chair height toilets is a no brainer, and we've done it in our other bathrooms we've remodeled.

If anyone else is following this, I found this good information on curtains and doors for curbless showers. http://homeability.com/curbless-shower-water-containment-guide/
PRO
Sabrina Alfin Interiors
3 years ago
FWIW, I'm designing a shower like this for a client as we speak. The contractor said it would not increase the cost of his bid. So check before you make the assumption it's more expensive. Now, that said, it's a larger project than just the bathroom, so maybe he's got more wiggle room to play with cost-wise. Worth investigating.
Bruce in Northern Virginia
3 years ago
Make sure you and your contractor understand the difference between a roll-in shower and a transfer shower. Transfer shower means the user has enough upper body strength or ability to stand long enough to move from a wheelchair to a bench. A roll-in shower means there must be enough space to roll in with a wheelchair.

My BIL is a paraplegic who must always be in a wheelchair, and we frequently have problems with hotels not understanding what he needs. He used to transfer and use a bench in the shower, but as he ages and his shoulders take more of a beating, he does not want to transfer to take a shower. He is afraid of slipping or losing strength at the wrong time, and then ending up on the shower floor. He brings a separate shower chair with him (actually one of his old chairs with most of the accessory pieces stripped off), transfers to that chair to roll into the shower, and then goes back to his regular wheelchair later on.

Kerdi and other manufacturers recommend that if you use a curbless or zero entry shower design, you should plan for the entire bathroom area around it as a wet room. That is relatively easy to do when you prep the floor for tile, since they just use waterproof membrane and sealed seams under the tile. Its not a lot different than the decoupling membrane they use for a standard tile installation.

Bruce
julieste thanked Bruce in Northern Virginia

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