Norway Spruce in Shade - Actual experience (or pics) requested
Gregg z6a-CT
3 years ago
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tsugajunkie z5 SE WI ♱
3 years agoGregg z6a-CT
3 years agoRelated Discussions
Health and Beauty of Norway Spruce Trees--a Hypothesis
Comments (29)spedigrees: Limestone varies in magnesium content. If you go to your local agricultural store--I am not sure what you have up there--and ask for “high mag limestone“--crushed or pulverized--they should be able to direct you. The analysis is always posted on the bag. Dolomitic limestone is generally “high-mag,” but perhaps other types of limestone have a high magnesium content. Our soils here in the northern Shenandoah Valley are very high in magnesium, and high mag limestone underlies a good portion of our soils, and high mag limestone is readily available. And, almost all the NS in this area look very nice, in spite of our hot, dry climate. As for soil acidity--that should not be a problem for Norway spruce, unless the soil is extremely acidic, maybe in the low 4’s. At my timberland, where the soils are a bit below 5, Norway spruce does very well. I am not sure what an optimum pH would be, and it would probably vary with soil type. Maybe somewhere in the 5.5 range is "safe." As for magnesium for Norway spruce--this has been fairly well documented. I titled my original post “a hypothesis,” but there is substantial evidence. A site factors study done at SUNY Syracuse some years ago now, noted that “at least 75 kg per hectare” is needed for good NS growth. Studies in Europe, where there has been extensive decline in NS forests, has shown that the acid rain causes a reduction in the availability of magnesium, and supplementing magnesium often solves the problem. And, I have made some personal observations--not scientific, and without all the facts--that magnesium supplementation can make a dramatic difference. But, the main effect of magnesium may not be in height growth, but in the fullness, density, and lushness of the foliage. I have seen many poor looking, thin foliaged NS trees growing reasonably fast in height. Also, the thin foliage on some Norway spruce trees has causes other than a lack of an optimum supply of magnesium. And, I know, some of that is genetic, and not correctable. As for your experiment: Yes, 5 years should be long enough to show some results, but no sooner. The limestone has to dissolve into the soil, get down to the roots, and, because NS hold their needles for several years, the "thickening" of the foliage may not be vis1ble for several years. BUT, and this is a big "but," the effect may not really show up on very young trees. It may help the growth rate, but as for foliage density, that is never really noticeable until trees are somewhat older and larger--maybe not until they are 20 feet tall or more will any difference be really clear. As for the growth rate: white pine usually starts growing faster than NS. How old are your trees? How tall? NS trees don't begin to grow fast until they are about 4.5 feet high, and that could be only after 6 to 8 years. At that point, they should "take off." On the best soils, and in the right climate, an average of 28 inches is possible, with some years the new shoots elongating up to 4 feet or more. But growth averaging 20 to 24 inches is good for many sites. Norway spruce and white pine, assuming equally good strains, should grow equally well over the first 50 years. The white pine up to about 18 years should outgrow the NS, but after that NS should catch up a bit. After 50 years NS should outgrow the white pine for some years. SUNY Syracuse did a growth curves study for NS, and found that for the first 60 years--after the trees reach 4.5 feet in height, there is no "curve" as such, but a straight line. White pine growth curves bend sharply over to the right after the first 18 years or so, and at 50 years the growth averages about 1 foot, while at the same age, NS trees can still be growing 28 inches per year. But this rate does begin to decline not too long after the 60-year mark. On the best sites both should eventually make 150 feet or more in forest stands. Open grown NS should make 120 feet or more on better sites. As for the blue spruce and magnesium, I really don't know. Tom may be right about this. --spruce...See MoreNorway Spruce Screen Planting Distance
Comments (22)gnomeabram: This issue of lower branch retention interests me, and it may be complex and depend on a number of factors. Generally, any NS branch that gets half, or maybe even a third of a day's sun should not die. And, in a dense stand of hardwood trees, the most dense shade producing maples or beech perhaps excepted, a NS tree should retain most of its lower branches for many years, although the foliage will be thinner, depending on the amount of light they receive, among other factors. I have a good number of NS trees growing among hardwood trees, and they all have their lower branches intact. But, eventually, as these trees growing in a hardwood stand age, they will lose their lower branches, but it will take 40 or more years for this to happen. Factors that could affect the loss of lower branches could include genetic strain of NS and the fertility of the soil. I don't have very much specific information about the need for magnesium, but I suspect that those areas where NS doesn't grow as well as others, there could be a magnesium deficiency. I read one study that said that for the best NS growth, there should be 75 kg of magnesium per hectare. I am just guessing about the specific effects of any magnesium deficiency, but when I have any doubts, I add some high mag lime around my NS trees. I am sure there could be other fertility issues, but this one may affect trees that are in otherwise fertile soil where one might not suspect any deficiency. But I do think your idea about having wider spacing giving more opportunity for sunlight to reach the lower branches is correct--you could draw out the shapes of the trees and see geometrically how this could work. In addition, the wider spacing would avoid so many dead branches appearing between the closely spaced trees. Moissy: Having the NS trees close together will, if anything cause them to grow taller. If they become really overcrowded, height growth, and the overall health of the trees will be reduced. But this is unlikely to happen with a double row planted as a screen where there will always be good light on at least one side. But, individual NS trees will grow at different rates. Earlier I talked about how I love the variety in any planting of NS trees--well, a part of that variation from tree to tree is a variation in growth rates. Any screen that is planted with the trees fairly close, such as 8 X 8, will have some trees very much outgrown and eventually overtopped by others. Those trees outgrown by their neighbors will have their growth rates reduced even more by the crowding and eventual overtopping. In my own screen, as I see some trees growing more weakly than others, I will remove them, unless they have some especially attractive foliage or weeping habit. If I see things like those, I may thin out a faster growing tree to favor a more beautifully growing one. The main reason I planted 8 X 8 is to have extra trees and more chances to get some really outstanding ones. I dont see the issue of having to thin them out later as any problem. Work like that can be done just one tree at a time, and if at some point I canÂt do the work myself, I will hire some one to do it for me. Anyway, I canÂt live without a lot of exercise, so I relish it, and as need be, I pace myself. --Spruce...See MoreNorway spruce--problems?
Comments (23)Justine: I can see that you are really having a hard time making a decision regarding your tree--and your grass. I see the reasons for your difficulty. You love the grass and you love the tree. But the tree has had some severe damage, and perhaps its survival is in doubt. So, you are reluctant to remove the grass, and then have the tree die, or at least not recover to be the beautiful tree you want it to be. You could end up losing both the tree and the grass. Not good! But here is the bottom line--or lines--sorry. If you want to do everything you can to help the tree recover, you have to get rid of all the grass and almost all the extra soil for a distance of something like 15 or 20 feet in all directions. Then you sould mulch and make sure the tree is watered during any real dry spells. And, as for the top of the tree--if it looks really ugly up there, have the arborist come and see if there is some split or something that will make it difficult for any new growth the tree makes to replace the top to have a firm foundation on sound wood. Maybe a clean cut at the top is better than some really ugly split top. If you decide to do that, later I could give some instructions for how to at least retard any rot that may want to get started in the broken/cut top. But as for the grass--if you leave the tree the grass will begin to look worse and worse over time--it will not get enough sun, and the roots of the tree may rob it of the moisture it needs unless you are comitted to watering it very regularly from now on, etc. etc. I find it hard to see how you can have both the grass and the tree. So I think you have to make a decision about what you want. Of course if you keep the tree and do what you can to help it grow the best, including removing the grass you love, it may die anyway as a result of the injury and from having the extra soil around it for too long. If you leave the tree and the grass, the grass, and the tree may both die on their own. So what to do? If the tree were the only real important thing, you should get rid of all the grass and soil from around the tree ASAP, mulch, and have the arborist look at the top and see what's there. Maybe after the tree recovers from the extra soil for a year or two, some careful fertilizing and maybe some regular watering. The tree can be really "babied" and it may respond. Or it may not. The other option is to cut the tree down and if you really love NS have another one or more planted. If you decide on that course of action, let me know and maybe and I can offer some useful advice about how to select a new tree and how to plant and care fot it, etc. If you are young, and plan to stay in that house for a long time, you may enjoy watching your new Norway spruce tree(s) grow. Following your present course could leave you with no tree and no grass after five years or so. Or the tree could do OK in spite of the extra soil and the broken top--NS are tough, resilient critters. And maybe you can nurse the grass to keep it looking OK in spite of the shade, etc. There are a lot of decisions in life that are murky--this one is plenty "murky," but fortunately the stakes are not as high as many decisions we need to make in other kinds of situations. I know I am not helping you make any decisions here, but at least I can help you see what your choices are and what the uncertainties are. If you have any questions I will be happy to offer any additional information/advice I can. --Spruce...See MoreColumnar Norway Spruce
Comments (22)'North Star' is from a branch reversion of Picea glauca 'Densata', otherwise known as Dwarf Alberta Spruce. This reversion has an intermediate rate of growth and in time will become decent-sized. Overall it is a nice all around green tree for a smaller landscape but it does grow nearly 6"-8" a year here in zone 4. So, figure out what size you are planning on starting with and add 6-8" every year (possibly more when it is fully established) and you will get what you can expect for a full sized specimen. I can see the ones I've used in the landscape will need candle pruned in several years to maintain the size required. If you are looking for something a little slower there are many other options....See Morebengz6westmd
3 years agoJohniferous (Zone 6B, Northern NJ)
2 years agokitasei2
2 years agokrnuttle
2 years ago
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