Is this a new build or renovation? Is there any other way to get to the dining room other than through the pantry? Can a window be added on the wall where you currently have the stove? There are many talented people who are very qualified to help. My initial thoughts are there is room for improvement. Let's see who chimes in.

this is a new build, we are in the final stages of framing, so still have the ability to make some changes on the fly, the dining room can be accessed by going around the bar, which is somewhat roundabout, so we opted for a walkthrough pantry similar to a butler's pantry, but with no cabinetry/sink as the bar provides all that jazz and then some - yes, we can add a window to along the stove wall should we wish to do so - do you have any thoughts on the placement of a prospective double wall oven?

OK, so the pantry is for food storage and not an actual butlers pantry with cabinetry? That is the first thing that seems odd to me. You should be able to access the dining room through the kitchen. A butlers pantry is fine, but food storage would not be my preference. My first thought was to move the fridge on the end run closest to the breakfast area. It provides easy access if you need something while eating. I like a sink under a window if possible which is why I asked about additional windows. If the fridge moved, then the double ovens could go in that space. However, there are many very talented people who will have many ideas to improve the flow while following the recommended kitchen guidelines. @mama goose - @Jan Moyer, - @ Beth H and there are others. Give them a bit of time and hopefully they will chime in.

correct, we opted for the walkthrough pantry in order to access the dining room through the kitchen - typically, the pantry would be where the bar is, and the butlers pantry would be where the pantry is, but i wanted a central bar area, so this is where we landed - thank you for the refrigerator/double wall oven swap, definitely something to consider - hopefully some of the other design pros will chime in with their insight, expertise, and opinions...

we like the idea of a window above the sink as well, but our sink is currently planned for the island, so we're uncertain about where we'd fit in a window along the current stove wall to integrate with the above counter cabinetry - thank you for the cabinet/kitchen designer advice - we have a general designer scheduled to join our meeting, so hopefully they guide us properly

I would not like enter my dining room like

Why would you set it up to NOT enter your bar from the other side of the house and have to walk round especially if you’re having a big party...Should be able to get in from both sides

Wouldn't it make more sense to have the "Bar" area be the walk-through space and not the food pantry? It would be more functional b/c the "bar" area could act as a Butler's Pantry where you could stage food for the Dining Room directly from the Kitchen instead of running back & forth through the food pantry.

In addition, I would not want my food pantry to be a public thoroughfare like that. Also be aware that food pantries should be cool, dry, and dark -- something you won't have with your current setup.

You wouldn't have to switch them, although I probably would to get the food pantry closer to where groceries are coming into the home.

Hi Jason-

Ok, you have really let yourself for something here on Houzz.

Please know we all have your best interests at heart, no matter how what we say it.

Firstly, for something as serious and costly as a build or re-model, none of it should be done "on the fly."

Because unless you have a money tree, money doesn't grow on trees.

And even if it did, undertaking all this is too much time and aggravation anyway.

I don't see the purpose of having seating at a counter when your breakfast table is so close by.

Eating at a counter discourages proper mealtime conversation.

As it is, children and teens talk with their thumbs on e-devices most of time anyway and can barely make conversation.

Shouldn't they at least face family members like proper humans and speak during mealtime?

As an adult, do you want to be treated like a short -order cook at a counter?

The other thing is, think about not having the sink smack dab in the middle of the counter, that limits the stretch of uninterrupted counter space for projects, whether it is baking with your kids, or laying out sewing patterns, or making volcanos, or any science fair or craft project.

Just make sure the sink is directly opposite the stove. You don't want two fannies brushing against each other. And if you do, take care of that in the bedroom:)

I wouldn't have a double sink either, that limits the size of the pots and pans you can fit in the sink. I would get one huuuge sink, and if you then want to divide up the space, you can get Rubbermaid plastic tubs.

I would get rid of counter seating, and that increases storage at the counter, as the side of the counter where you now have seating can be turned into drawers for more storage.

I wouldn't get a range top or stove with a griddle on top.

You can purchase two griddle pans that work marvelously and using both make more pancakes or fried eggs than you can on the allotted griddle area.

Furthermore, the clean-up of the griddle pans will be a lot easier.

I would definitely get two large wall ovens, things do cook at different temperatures, and I sure as heck do not want to be bending down and lifting a huge bird or roast beef out of a low oven.

You and your spouse may be young'uns now but unless you have found the fountain of youth, that won't last forever.

It doesn't bother me not having windows over the sink. With dishwashers, we don't spend that much time at the sink anyway.

As far as the pantry and butler's pantry thing...

That depends on what are your needs and where you live and what the rest of your house is like and how large is your family and what is your life style.

To some people a pantry is a closet to store overflow foodstuffs that don't need to go in the kitchen as well as some overflow dishware etc.

The further you live from stores, the larger that needs to be. If you live in the country and a store is an hour's drive, or you live in earthquake territory and you need three days worth of food for a family of 6, well that dictates how much pantry space you need.

Then again, if you have a large basement in which to store things like extra food, paper towels, etc, then maybe the pantry next to the kitchen doesn't need to be that large, and maybe the basement is where you can put your second refrigerator and your freestanding freezer.

Regarding the butler's pantry- in case you are thinking we've all been watching too much Downton Abbey.

We have.

Be that as it may, I used to think I would want a butler's pantry, for the extra sets of dishes that are used on grand occasions, the silver and trays and tureens, table linens etc.

Now I am thinking differently.

Assuming one does do a fair bit of entertaining and has those things, I would be happier with a "party closet" which is a contained space exclusively for the accoutrements of entertaining listed above, and can also include other things such as vases.

One of the advantages of this is that it keeps the entertaining things all together which is appropriate, which makes it easier to figure out how you want to plan your tables, and it doesn't waste space in the pantry which should be for food and cooking vessels.

Very few of us have hired help that put the finishing touches on the food in a butler's pantry.

Here is an article on party closets from Veranda.

https://www.veranda.com/decorating-ideas/a29529319/guide-to-party-closets/

And some images from that article-

a knock out closet-

As far as your range top, I think you can do better than the Kitchen Aid you show there.

There have been several threads here on Houzz as to what is really good quality.

I am still hopeful that the pro kitchen people will chime in (but it is a Saturday night). That being said, I disagree with the above regarding seating at your island. I have an island with seating and a table in your exact location. My kids used the island for breakfast before school and lunch on the weekends. At dinner, we ate at the table. It was also great for overflow seating and was very useful when I was cooking and someone wanted to hang out and chat. I did not have a sink there, as I wanted an uninterrupted space to cook and serve. However, I do feel that there is a better layout that the pro's can come up with. Many times they want to see your entire first floor plan so post that if you can.

So the bar is open to the living space, correct? With only the one way in/out? Do you envision serving your guests? Because that setup is more for a bartender than for self-serve. If it were me, I’d opt for a one-wall bar station for self-serve, then I’d give the other wall of cabinets and a little extra space to the pantry. I’d use it for fancy dish storage and buffet space, and maybe for storage behind solid doors.
As for the kitchen, you have too much counter space on either side of the stove; you won’t use all that space. Yet the sink will be busy on the island. You might think about having a smaller prep sink on island.

I don't have an opinion on the range or ovens, but I agree about the inconvenience of accessing the DR through the food pantry. In this variation, the pantry is not as convenient to the kitchen, but it is a separate space. You could make it a 'secret' pantry, by making the doors look like a tall cabinet, and putting a corresponding tall cabinet on the other end of the counter. The actual tall cabinet could hold ROTS.

I included the wall ovens, and finished out the run with appliance storage in the corner. I added two windows, to allow more light. The small cabinet area in the bottom right could be made as a continuation of the bar area, or oriented toward the island, or could be another tall cabinet for pantry items. ETA, I forgot to mention that I recessed the fridge, so that it's flush with the oven cabinet.

Pantry options:

Lisa, thank you for your feedback, we don’t envision guests entering our dining room through the pantry, the walkthrough was designed to enable hosts easy access to/from kitchen/dining room - we had considered the walkthrough bar, but the refrigerator got in the way - with your idea to bump the refrigerator, we might be able to open the bar to the kitchen as well, but hafta think through the wall/cabinetry that would then exist on each side of the new cutout door to the kitchen

Buehl, thank you for your feedback, as referenced in my response to Lisa above, we do not envision guests entering our dining room through our pantry, and we will now consider the walkthrough bar option if the refrigerator is bumped up - out of curiosity, why do you think that the current setup is not conducive to cool, dry, and dark conditions?

loobab, thank you for your detailed and thorough reply, we certainly appreciate the context laid out up front, and we don’t necessarily disagree with the family time idea, but we also don’t think that an island equals lack of family time - we believe that they serve different purposes, which are not necessarily mutually exclusive - “just make sure the sink is directly opposite the stove. you don't want two fannies brushing against each other” - do you meant NOT directly opposite the stove?

emilyam819, thank you for your feedback, yes, the bar is open to the living space, intended to a focal point to the entire downstairs (image of entire lower floor plan below) - depending on size of the gathering, we envision serving my small gatherings (2-8ppl), and for larger fathers, we imagine batching out cocktails in advance, and we’ll put them in enclosed dripping pitchers on the bar top for self-service

mama goose_gw zn6OH, thank you for for your feedback, does your opinion on the dining room access stay the same given my responses above and image below? we like the idea of a hidden pantry in your diagram, though we are concerned about a lack of cabinetry storage with the two added windows

full downstairs floor plan below for additional context - note that we have made a slight change to the fireplace/living room setup as the box was popping out to far, so we’re going with a staggered setup instead

Much prefer a rangetop (with drawers underneath for pots, pans and lids), and double wall ovens. With wall ovens, there is far less bending, than with a range. We put in a Miele CSO (combi steam oven) over a Miele convection oven. Both are fantastic units...heat up quickly, and cook/roast/bake evenly.

I agree with Patricia Colwell, getting a built in griddle is a waste. They’re difficult to keep looking clean, and they use up two burners, which you will have greater use for. We have a griddle that sits atop of the rangetop, when we need it, and is cleaned and put away, afterward. Click to enlarge.

Put the fridge at the breakfast end of the counter so you can easily grab the mayo or butter if you've left them off the table. Put the DW left of the sink and a dish storage drawer on the right side by the breakfast area so you can set the table from the drawer. Put a silver drawer above it. I would prefer an induction cooktop where you have your range located, and do a stacked oven/micro where the fridge is. Some induction cooktops have an option that make two adjacent burners operate simultaneously so you can use a griddle over them. The space by the current fridge could be turned into pullout food pantry shelving. If you build it shorter than that run of cabinetry, you could arrange room for the oven stack to go at the end of the "east" wall's counter as illustrated below. Then you could make a butler's pantry of your passageway, push it more into the bar area with beautiful cabinetry, and do a more shallow self-serve bar that doesn't open to the dining room. That will give you wall space in the dining area for a piece of casegoods, art, etc. The more drawers you can have the better. Upper cabinets are nearly as useful/accessible. Without them on the range wall, you can flank the range with a pair of windows and the entire kitchen will feel more airy and light, and will be more practical. Here's the reality of drawers vs. shelves and example of a pullout pantry installation.

A smaller variation could be based on this pullout concept instead of fridge and cabinetry on the "south" wall.

Bergen County, NJ - Traditional - Kitchen · More Info

Rough illustration of my suggestions above.

For your "east" wall, but with windows flanking the cooktop instead of upper cabs.

Neighbourly relations · More Info

Yes Jason, thanks for catching my mistake! Sink should not be directly opposite a range or oven.

i attempted to modify my existing plan based upon everyone's feedback - please feel free to reply with your thoughts...

summary of modifications:

1 - moved fridge from "south" to "northeast"

2 - added 30" double wall oven on the "south" end

3 - added a cutout door to access the bar from the kitchen

4 - removed the "south" pantry walkthrough door

5 - added additional shelving on the "south" pantry wall

6 - slid the cooktop "south" to center it between the "south" end of the fridge and the pantry wall

a few thoughts/questions:

a - the length of countertop on each side of the cooktop now stands at 45" on each side - is this sufficient? i had considered kicking the cooktop a little further "south" to be centered with the walkway between the island and the double wall oven, but i'm concerned that the vent hood will look out of place if it's so offcenter on that entire wall

b - should that tiny slab at the "southwestern" corner of the kitchen not be a countertop, and instead perhaps floor to "ceiling" cabinetry of sorts?

c - will the double wall oven look odd on it's own where i've slotted it in?

Nice. I don’t think it would be bad to maintain the walkthrough pantry as well, though. Imagine the cook trying to bring food to dining room while bartender is there. Plus, pantry counter might be where you can spread a buffet... or will you use back bar counter for that?

Your breakfast table looks a bit close to the island. You should check on that- and move windows if necessary, if centering table on windows is important to you.

The flow is better than the original, but I'd suggest the layout in the inspiration pic decoenthusiaste posted--if the fridge must be moved. Omit the small cabinet at the bottom (SW), and shorten the stub wall. Add 12" to the island, to give you a wider prep space. Move the island 12" toward the bar area to provide more space on the breakfast table end, and move the fridge to the left a few inches, adjusting the window.

This is looking so much better than the original.

met with the cabinet company today, below is the rendering with a few modifications - curious to learn whether there is any additional feedback from those whom have responded to this thread - my biggest concern is the amount of countertop space between the fridge and the cooktop (33”-36”), and between the cooktop and the double wall oven (33”-36”) - my instinct is that this is insufficient, and I will welcome any insight on this particular area, thank you

@Jason Lewkowicz - Let's hope mama goose and/or others chime in. It's looking nice to me. Remember you will also have space to prep on the island. Some questions I have are: 1) Can the fridge be moved to the left to give you more space? That run doesn't have to stop at the end of the island. I have a somewhat similar layout but my fridge extends 16 inches past my island. 2) Are you getting a built in or counter depth fridge? - In the drawing your fridge seems to stick out quite a bit. If nothing else, pull the upper cabinet over the fridge forward. Let's wait for the others to respond.

@Design Girl, yes! i am working on a plan to kick the fridge up 16" to give us some additional countertop space, which will then enable a prep space of 48" between the fridge and cooktop, and leaves us somewhere around 24-28" of countertop space between the cooktop and the double wall oven - i believe that this might be the most functional setup, though i'm slightly concerned that the cooktop might look a lil odd offcentered by that proportion (image below) - the fridge will be counterdepth, which is not reflective in the renderings

I get it - I'm a symmetry girl so I'd probably center the stove and take the 8 inches on each side. I think you'd have enough room. Mama Goose - where are you?

The 16” will go a long way. Just make sure the upper doors on either side of the hood are equal in size, but not in number. For ex, three 18” doors to the left and two 18” doors to the right. Then the asymmetry will not look off.

Design Girl, I mowed grass until 9:30 last night. I love walking back from the barn amid the fireflies. :)

So, I am just going beat a dead horse, anyway. Jason, you are worried about more prep space between the fridge and cooktop, when you should be adding the prep space to the island, as I mentioned before. Would you rather prep facing a wall, constrained by another wall (fridge side), or on the open island, where you have plenty of elbow room, and can interact with those in the living areas and/or at the island? That's not to say that you can't grab an extra onion once you've thrown everything else in the skillet, and chop it while you're close enough to stir the mirepoix, but the bulk of your prep should be beside the water source.

You have cabinetry on the back wall, in the pantry, in the butler's pantry/bar, and maybe another row on the back of the island (I can't tell for sure); shorten the stub wall to match the stub wall on the other side of the room, give up the tall cabinets on the pantry/bar wall, make the island 12" wider and move it 12" toward the bar wall. That will also give you more breathing room for the table in the dining nook, and you can center the range hood between the fridge and ovens.

@mama goose_gw zn6OH - Good for you - I always look for you kitchen wisdom. You are usually spot on with great solutions and suggestions.

You have a family room, a kitchen, a bar, a dining room, so you must entertain frequently, but you have no where to hide the mess when you have guests. I would recommend that you orient the bar to serve both the kitchen, family room and dining room (it would face the stair hall) and have it be one wall only. Make the pantry space larger and include a sink and dishwasher. That will be a pantry and clean up area and the island sink becomes your prep area. I have this arrangement and love it. When guests are over we can completely hide the mess to worry about after they leave or the next day. If we have caterers or help, they can work in that space quietly. You would only need one opening from the kitchen to the pantry. Dirty dishes would go from the kitchen or dining room to the pantry/scullery/clean up kitchen area. You could also locate ovens in this space if needed.