Sourdough starter question

6 years ago

This is my first time attempting to make a starter and I will have many questions as the week goes on, but my first one is: can I store the discarded starter on, say, day 3 and beyond, or do I need to wait until it is mature on day 6/7? I am on day 3 today.

Thanks!

Chris

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)

6 years ago

last modified: 6 years ago

If you are an Amazon Prime member with a Kindle, you can download the book Tartine Bread for free. It's well worth it. Chad Robertson goes through the entire process of sourdough baking and it's a great resource for beginners. I am in my third year of sourdough baking (shout out to pillog who helped me get started with detailed instructions which you can find through Gardenweb search). Sourdough baking is one of those endeavors where you just keep on learning as you go.

To answer your question, I would wait until your starter can double in size before using it in a bake. Took about 7 days in my neck of the woods (starting with ground rye flour and switching to King Arthur white). You will know whether you can use it by trying the "float test". Drop a little blob of it in water and it floats it's ready to go.

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Comments (26)

bragu_DSM 5
6 years ago
patience is king ... it gets better yeasty beasties with age [full week].

I have an old pyrex measuring cup that I use for starter, and tape the instructions on the side on an index card.
Chris T thanked bragu_DSM 5
plllog
6 years ago
If you search the forum, you'll find a lot of starter info.

You can use your discard as wet flour right away. Baking will kill the microorganisms. Saving it before the yeast has had a chance to dominate means you're growing all kinds of microorganisms freely, but they grow slowly in the fridge. I'd use it up sooner than later, though.
Chris T thanked plllog
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It was fun reading through these oldies - but goodies. I can now make a fairly decent loaf of sourdough bread - but it wasn't easy - lots of trial and error. Thanks to Ken and all the folks here, my bread finally gets my family's "thumbs-up" - although it took some doing. I would add one bit of information though. I have a bread book that I recommend to beginners. It is "The Cornell Bread Book" by Clive M. McCay and Jeanette B. McCay. I happened to see it advertised - while surfing the net, and found several copies on - I think - Amazon or? - but very inexpensive. It has lots of recipe for all kinds of different breads, rolls, using whole wheat, rye and other flours. It was very helpful for me. It does advise making sourdough cultures each time you bake, which I do not do, preferring to have my culture made up and stored in the fridge. As Ken mentioned, it is made ahead of time. I remove 1-1/2 cups for each baking, feed it until it starts to activate. then proceed with the recipe. The remaining starter - kept in a quart jar, then needs to be replenished with water and flour to build back the starter for the next batch. While in the fridge it may develop a dark watery upper layer (hooch - or is it hootch?). This is just stirred a bit before the next use before adding more flour at next baking session. It was a lot of fun - and I try to keep a loaf on hand now. It is great - especially with spaghetti. I like to slice rather thick, sprinkle Roman cheese on top and pop in the toaster oven till browned. Great with soups too. Just my 2 c's. I think - for beginners, they would like "The Cornell Bread Book" - my MIL gave me my copy - it was revised in 1973. You might find one in the library also. Bejay
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Things to make c/discarded sourdough starter?
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This looks to be #150, so I'll start another sourdough thread with pie segue. :) Cathy, I know the liberated feeling you're talking about! I had it when I started these experiments with the discard. I do as I please with most baking recipes, usually to success. I don't have Grainlady's technical knowledge nor Ann's experience and expertise, but I know that if you control the basics, it'll come out. My mother's challah is so tetchy, however, that controlling it is enough without messing with it. A cousin did that when I was young, and tried using it as a base recipe for other breads, and they were breads, but I didn't really like them. You have to know how to not handle the challah (no typos there) to make it work out right. Add to that the old miseries of using cake yeast and I never messed with yeast dough before. I really liked the figgy loaf! Worrying about keeping the yeast alive rather than if I was going to ruin the bread was great. But that was one of those very soupy things, and if I try that again, I'll use less water/more flour. :) It's interesting that so many people think more hydration means lighter bread and more holes! That's the opposite to what I've experienced so far. Leader, like the ciabatta recipe, works the dough and develops the gluten. Controlled hydration seems to work better for me, and I definitely think the miche was too wet given how much better it got as it dried out. I had similar issues with the pizza recipe. One of the ones I tried, which was the result of much study in a pizza working group, was something like 90% hydration of whole wheat (though not soupy!). It was a very sticky dough and had to be made in a pan. It was not at all comfortable with toppings, though it was okay par-baked. Totally wrong for me, and it didn't have a good enough baked texture to stick with. It's not like my pizza recipe is low hydration. Just comparatively low. It's around 70% hydration. Cathy, I agree that inhaling pizza of any kind is frightening! Thank goodness for the widespread publicity for the Heimlich Maneuver! The miche is peasanty, as in plain old bread. I'd be happy to make the pain de levain for you! That has much more complexity even though it's mostly white. It's very yummy! The miche isn't as flavorless now, but it's not stand in line worthy, unfortunately. Next time. It was supposed to be record setting heat this weekend, but we're having monsoon influence, instead. Not the actual monsoons, which are farther South, but damp and cooler. Spaghetti and meatballs and ciabatta sounds delicious and decadent right now! (Decadent because two starches--my mother never served bread with pasta.) My favorite way to eat ciabatta, however, is with a goodly layer of good butter and an even thicker layer of powder grated good parmesan. This is the breakfast the Italian stewards on the ocean liner tempted my mother with when she was underfed and ill and returning home. I am not underfed, so I don't indulge, but the slightly salty, slightly sour bread with the sweet butter and salty, umami parm is just amazing. (Okay, I'm not underfed, but I haven't had breakfast...) Standing in line for the ciabatta... The gyros-ish meatloaf came out fine. It would have been better with more fat (who says that?), but the meat that needed using was very lean. I suppose I could have added some butter, but who does that? Not I. It's tasty, though. I didn't go full out on the seasoning (i.e., used the recipe) because I'd never made this recipe before. It could be kicked up a bit, but the flavor is about right. The leanness means I can be generous with the oil and grill some up later. :) No yoghurt sauce since since there are no pita either and my cucumbers and dill both bit it in the fridge. Tomatoes, onions and peppers will be fine. :) Ann, one lesson I learned best from you is to just put things in the fridge. Fermenting yeast things, that is. Just put it in the fridge. It's the most freeing thing I've learned recently. I've read all about it, of course, and the pizza recipe is one that's meant to develop in the fridge, but the way you just whip up a levain and throw it in the fridge until you're ready, or make up some do and go off to work, with instructions to Moe for when to take it out. Of course it's a given that cold retards yeast, but so much of my bread life until now has been about keeping yeast warm and cozy and encouraging it to rise, retarding the rise in the fridge to manage the slow process of sourdough is a revelation. Thank-you! Edited to add link and fix weird typo. This post was edited by plllog on Tue, Aug 5, 14 at 20:51
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Sourdough starter for dummies...
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Not idiotic. No question is if you don't know the answer, but you weren't supposed to know the answer to this one. When you make a recipe like that you feed it up first. Details below. First off, the measurements aren't important for keeping your yeast alive. They become important for using it because you want to know how much flour and water you're putting in. If you don't need a recipe, you don't even need to know that, and can just do it by feel. I.e., until it's wet or dry enough. You can work your way back to knowing your proportions just by feeding for a few more days. If you've been feeding half water and half flour by weight each time, which on second reading, I think is what you were saying, the only issue is how hungry the yeast is, and no biggie. It's still all "100% hydration", i.e., the same weight of water as of flour, so no matter how much you have total, you know how much of each. Re the whole wheat, as I said previously, you don't want to shock the starter. Especially since it's not rising strongly yet. I'd feed for another week with AP just to make it easier, but if you feel like playing it's not wrong. Start by giving it only a bit of whole wheat and the rest white, and work up to all whole wheat, or it may go into a coma. Give it some time even if it's dormant and it might recover, but this early it could give up. Probably won't, but could. If you start with 10g, and work up to the full 50g over a week, it's less likely to protest. Whole wheat doesn't form as strong a gluten because of the bran, and the bran can actually cut the gluten threads as it works and rises. Eventually, it will double, but it make take it awhile to develop "legs". If you can, use whole wheat bread flour, or hard wheat berries rated at 14+% protein (this is a different number from the one in the nutrition info on the bag, which due to rounding isn't precise enough to be meaningful for baking comparisons). I don't think red or white hard wheat matters much. White might be a little easier to work with, but not enough to fret over. Feeding up your starter means increasing the size. So you have 200g in your jar, and your recipe calls for 400g. Put your starter in a bigger jar and give it its own weight in food, but don't discard, so use 100g of water and 100g of flour. Wait your standard 8-12 hours for it to double, pull off your 100g feed and set aside/store, discard 100g and feed the remaining 200g by 100g flour and 100g water. If your starter is old and strong, you can probably just feed without discarding, but while it's young, you need more food. So, when you have a recipe that calls for "1 cup of starter", it's usually talking about a wetter starter, that's more of a thin batter or slurry consistency. For your sanity, if the recipe doesn't say the hydration ratio, or give a starter recipe where you can see the proportions, skip it until you're comfortable baking with your starter. If it is a 300% hydration recipe, for instance--the weight of the flour is always 100% and the proportional weight of the water is measured off that, so 300% means three times as much water by weight as the weight of the flour--so once you've separated out your keeper starter, you can increase the water in your feeding, or you can feed first and add the water right before you use it. If you're baking daily, you can just keep a very wet starter going on the counter. If not, it's harder to maintain healthily. Other recipes often call for just your kind of starter, half water half flour. For one of them, just feed up the starter to the correct volume. There are different ideas about the best time to use the starter. No matter what, the whole point is that the yeast will feed on the carbs and burp making the bread rise. Unless directed otherwise, I use it after it has doubled, but well before the next feeding time. Have fun!
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Sooo....shortly before this current pandemic quarantine thing started, I started a starter. Just put equal volume of purified water and organic rye flakes and in about 36 hours I had bubbles.....so I began the discard feed routine and soon I had a starter going that doubled in about 8 hours.....but by then flour was very hard to get and I had committed to baking bread every day and giving it away, so I stashed the starter and the current jar of discard int he refrig and forgot about it for easily 3 weeks....likely longer, time flies during this quarantine and one day looks like another. Last Sunday My grand daughter came over to visit....through the door or outside at a respectable distance and asked if I could spare some starter as she had a friend who wanted to try some. So. I dug out the jar,. and poured some into another fed it, fed what I had left and sent her home with the starter and directions to feed it again before bed and again in the morning and again after work when she would give it to her friend.......and I did the same for my jar and both are up and running. I stirrred the hooch back into the starter along with any dark stuff on top....sites I have read say it's fine and I found it to be so. I have been using the discard as part of the volume in my "daily bread' and it adds to the flavor profile but I don't even think of asking it to provide leavening all by itself. but tomorrow morning, I will make myself a mix with just the starter and no yeast and leave it on the counter to rise for about 18 hours and hope it will give me some loft.....then I will bake in my Enamel cast iron Dutch oven. I'll report back. But what I have learned is that even a young and very neglected starter has live yeast if it doesn't smell rotten.....and if fed it will grow. And For L Pink the reason you don't just add flour and water to increase the volume is the food in the starter is then very quickly used up.....as there are more yeasty-beasties to eat the carbs. So either increase what you feed your starter or discard and refrigerate the discard and feed what is left.
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plllog
6 years ago
Just to clear things up: When you feed your starter, you have the discard which is the unfed portion you're disposing of. That can be used as wet flour always (though you need to use some instinct to figure out how wet it is besides just the water percentage as absorption makes it behave differently and some moisture can be lost in handling and evaporation). You can also feed your discard, after you put your continuing starter aside, and feed up the discard to bake with. That has to wait until you have a good colony of yeast. Before baking, especially when the starter is young, you can feed without discarding, but in proportion to the amount of starter dough you have, for a few rounds, closer together in time, to increase and strengthen the starter, then divide off your keeper, and use the rest as a preferment.

My assumption was that you meant keeping the discard that's unfed to use as I do, for quickbreads, pancakes, etc., rather than wasting the flour. Jerzeegirl is talking about when your main starter is ready to be your primary leavening (it can take more than a week, depending on your flour and how hardy the yeast is, but a week is about average).

Good luck!
Chris T thanked plllog
foodonastump
6 years ago
JZ - Thanks so much for recommending that book. I know there’s a wealth of information on this forum, but for someone who just wants some basic understanding and steps to get started, I’ve found the conversations a little intimidating.

I’ve just read through the basic country bread and can’t wait to get started. The book is an inviting read, straightforward, well illustrated, and seems to make baking great bread approachable.
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two25acres
6 years ago
Are there obvious reasons for using sour dough? I ask because I am having a challenge with breads and digestion. I do however like to have a good bread in the summer for blt's and in the winter for toast or fresh bread with soup. Just curious as I am considering giving it a try myself.
Chris T thanked two25acres
WalnutCreek Zone 7b/8a
6 years ago
I just found this sourdough starter recipe on the Red Star Yeast site. I plan to try it within the next few weeks. I really like it because it is one you don't have to remove from and add to every day; you let it sit on the counter for 5 days, then it can be used or placed in the refrigerator for later use.

Sourdough Starter

https://redstaryeast.com/recipes/sourdough-starter/

2 cups water

3 1/2 cup all-purpose flour

1 package (2 1/4 tsp, 1/4 oz, 7g) RED STAR Active Dry Yeast

1 Tbsp sugar

In a 4-quart nonmetallic container, dissolve yeast in warm water (110º to 115º F); let stand 5 minutes. Add flour and sugar. Stir by hand until blended. The mixture will be thick; any remaining lumps will dissolve during the fermentation process. Cover loosely with plastic wrap. Let stand in warm place for 5 days, stirring 2 to 3 times each day. The starter will rise and fall during the fermentation period; it becomes thinner as it stands. A temperature of 80º to 85º F is best for developing the sour flavor. When the starter is developed, it is bubbly and may have a yellow liquid layer on top; stir starter before using. The starter can be used for baking or placed in the refrigerator for later use.

To use the starter, measure out desired amounts as specified in the recipe. Let refrigerated starter come to room temperature before using; this will take about 4 hours.

After using a portion of the starter for a recipe, replenish remaining starter with 3 parts flour to 2 parts water (example: if you use 1 cup starter, add back 1 cup flour and 2/3 cup water) and 1 teaspoon sugar. Stir until blended; some lumps may remain. Cover loosely and let stand in warm place for 10 to 12 hours or overnight. The starter will rise and become bubbly. Stir and store in refrigerator. If the starter is not used every week, stir in 1 teaspoon sugar to keep it active.

The recipe should make 3 to 4 (or even a bit more) cups of starter. Just follow the replenishing steps in the instructions after taking out some of the starter for your recipe. For example, if you use 2 cups of the starter, add back 2 cups of flour and 1 1/3 cups water, plus a tsp of sugar.
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plllog
6 years ago
WalnutCreek, that's a recipe for an ongoing preferment. It probably does assume the properties of sourdough, if you're looking to make sour bread. When we talk sourdough, however, we usually mean wild yeast. All wild yeast is the same yeast, once it's been caught and established, though people try to claim otherwise. IIRC, there are actually two stains of yeast that are used commercially, but most, at least, of the ADY is the same. ADY and wild yeast are different. Your ADY starter should work very well for baking. It's stong yeast, and if you keep it fed and happy, it'll work fine.

Two25acres, it's just a way of baking. Use more and you get a faster rise, sweeter bread, less and you get a slower, sour flavor. That's the sour part. The rest is using wild yeast, rather than buying packets or jars. Neither is better. It's just yeast. No health benefits one over the other. Small environmental preference for wild, once it's established and you're not doing a bunch of extra washing up on it. You eliminate the jars/packets, transportation, etc. it's just yeast, however.
Chris T thanked plllog
jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
two acres: You might find this interesting regarding digestion

Your welcome, FOAS! I am excited about that recipe too!
Chris T thanked jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)
Chris T
Original Author
6 years ago
Thanks so much everyone. I have been making bread for years but have never used a starter before. I ordered the Tartine Bread book which will arrive tomorrow. I love having books to write personal notes in- I am a bit of a cookbook junkie! I have read a lot of online about starters and know I have to discard daily, but I was hoping to keep that to use for something rather than tossing it away.
plllog
6 years ago
Chris, I have a big jar of discard in the fridge. If you want to make very sour bread, you can use it as wet flour along with your fresh starter. I use it for waffles a lot, and have also used it for cakes and other baking.
Chris T thanked plllog
donna_in_sask
6 years ago
If you don't plan on making bread frequently, you might want to maintain a smaller starter. I just keep a couple Tbs of starter and add 25 g water and 25 g flour each day. Adding some rye flour makes for a nice starter and it stays fairly thick compared to straight white flour.

You can dry excess starter to save as a backup or to give to friends, just spread a very thin layer onto some parchment and let dry completely. Crumble up and keep in airtight jar. Revive it with some water/flour when needed.
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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
I like cookbooks too. I like to read them in bed before I go to sleep - lol. I seriously lost 30 pounds on the cookbook diet. I would read the recipes and imagine eating them but without actually eating them.....for some crazy reason, it worked.

Once you get the hang of sourdough, You will start questioning recipes and maybe inventing your own. There are two areas that I am working on now: bakers' percentages and different levels of hydration. As you go along you will see that your questions bring up additional questions. There are some really good web sites where you can ask those questions. (I don't know if I am allowed to mention them here, but a google search will uncover them.)
Chris T thanked jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)
bragu_DSM 5
6 years ago
jz: : am glad I am not the only one who goes to bed with recipes on the brain.

Am always looking for an easy tasty recipe for the junior-senior high school kids once a month. They tell me they would like me to cook for them every week, but unfortunately I can't afford them that often ...
Chris T
Original Author
6 years ago
We’ll, think I need to throw out my starter. I moved it to my oven with the light on and it has stopped growing. Maybe it was too warm? Has a few bubbles but that’s it. I am going to try to revive some of my discard to see if that works before I start over. It is all trial and error at this point!

I am looking forward to the time when I can make some bread so I have some questions re: hydration and methods!

When we renovated our kitchen in 2018 I had to plan for a location for my cookbooks. I ended up buying a separate cabinet for them and l love looking through them for inspiration. I also have a subscription to NYT cooking- that is a great resource for anyone looking for something new.
jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)
6 years ago
How long has your starter been going? When I was starting mine, it first bubbled up like crazy and then after a few days it stopped. I just kept feeding it and it came back to life. I wouldn't give up yet if I were you.

I have the NY Times subscription too and I love it. I have gotten some of the best recipes from the Times.
Chris T thanked jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)
Chris T
Original Author
6 years ago
I am on day 7, so I have not had it going for too long. Thanks- I will keep it and see if it revives. I also put some of the discarded in a separate jar and fed it to see what happens.

I love seeing what Sam Sifton has each week. I agree with you - some great recipes there.
jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
When I cultivated my starter, I kept the jar slightly open (actually covered loosely) on the counter to be able to trap wild yeasts in the air. I did not put it in a warm place. (Full disclosure - I am in Florida so finding a warm place is not really a problem :-)

Here is a link to pillog's very detailed instructions on how to make a starter:

Instructions

I followed them and was fairly successful in getting a decent starter going.
Chris T thanked jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)
plllog
6 years ago
Chris, if your kitchen isn't arctic, your starter should be fine on the counter while you're feeding it daily. If you have a heavy stone counter that never warms up to ambient, put the starter on a pot holder or something to insulate it from the cold mass. It doesn't need to be warmed. Even if most of the yeast died, there should be some left in there. The oven light shouldn't be hot enough to kill the yeast. Where there are bubbles, there's hope! My own guess is that the yeast gorged in the relative heat and settled in for a post-prandial nap. Let us know if it perks up on the next feeding.
Chris T thanked plllog
Chris T
Original Author
6 years ago
It has! Lots of bubbles today. In fact, there are bubbles throughout it and not just on the top. Hoping that is good progress. It has grown, but not doubled. Yes, I have granite so it is sitting on a potholder. I live in central VA so it has not gotten cold here yet. Thanks!
plllog
6 years ago
Yes! Bubbles throughout is excellent! Growth is life. Doubling will come.
Chris T thanked plllog
jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)
6 years ago
That's great Chris. Just for fun, when it get to its highest point, take a little dab of it and drop it in a glass of water. Your goal is to get that little blob to float. Sounds like a couple of more days.
Chris T thanked jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)
Chris T
Original Author
6 years ago
I ran out of the flour I had been using and switched to a diff brand which seems to have slowed everything down. Not nearly as many bubbles. I am still giving it a go, it it is nowhere near ready. I may try to start over this weekend.
plllog
6 years ago
Don't give up!! Yes, changing flours can shock your starter, especially when it's young. Like any little one, it'll get over its snit. Just keep feeding it. Carl's starter is over 100 years old. Yours is a baby! It's fine. Just keep feeding it.
Chris T thanked plllog
Chris T
Original Author
6 years ago
You are so right! I let it be last night- did not feed it- and it was doubled this morning! So nice to see progress. Thanks!
jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)
6 years ago
You just have to keep at it. Every time to add new flour it's practically like starting anew anyway and so perseverance is the best tactic. Sometimes starter just acts weird - it's a living thing and so you just have to indulge it!
Chris T thanked jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)

Sourdough starter question

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