This looks to be #150, so I'll start another sourdough thread with pie segue. :) Cathy, I know the liberated feeling you're talking about! I had it when I started these experiments with the discard. I do as I please with most baking recipes, usually to success. I don't have Grainlady's technical knowledge nor Ann's experience and expertise, but I know that if you control the basics, it'll come out. My mother's challah is so tetchy, however, that controlling it is enough without messing with it. A cousin did that when I was young, and tried using it as a base recipe for other breads, and they were breads, but I didn't really like them. You have to know how to not handle the challah (no typos there) to make it work out right. Add to that the old miseries of using cake yeast and I never messed with yeast dough before. I really liked the figgy loaf! Worrying about keeping the yeast alive rather than if I was going to ruin the bread was great. But that was one of those very soupy things, and if I try that again, I'll use less water/more flour. :) It's interesting that so many people think more hydration means lighter bread and more holes! That's the opposite to what I've experienced so far. Leader, like the ciabatta recipe, works the dough and develops the gluten. Controlled hydration seems to work better for me, and I definitely think the miche was too wet given how much better it got as it dried out. I had similar issues with the pizza recipe. One of the ones I tried, which was the result of much study in a pizza working group, was something like 90% hydration of whole wheat (though not soupy!). It was a very sticky dough and had to be made in a pan. It was not at all comfortable with toppings, though it was okay par-baked. Totally wrong for me, and it didn't have a good enough baked texture to stick with. It's not like my pizza recipe is low hydration. Just comparatively low. It's around 70% hydration. Cathy, I agree that inhaling pizza of any kind is frightening! Thank goodness for the widespread publicity for the Heimlich Maneuver! The miche is peasanty, as in plain old bread. I'd be happy to make the pain de levain for you! That has much more complexity even though it's mostly white. It's very yummy! The miche isn't as flavorless now, but it's not stand in line worthy, unfortunately. Next time. It was supposed to be record setting heat this weekend, but we're having monsoon influence, instead. Not the actual monsoons, which are farther South, but damp and cooler. Spaghetti and meatballs and ciabatta sounds delicious and decadent right now! (Decadent because two starches--my mother never served bread with pasta.) My favorite way to eat ciabatta, however, is with a goodly layer of good butter and an even thicker layer of powder grated good parmesan. This is the breakfast the Italian stewards on the ocean liner tempted my mother with when she was underfed and ill and returning home. I am not underfed, so I don't indulge, but the slightly salty, slightly sour bread with the sweet butter and salty, umami parm is just amazing. (Okay, I'm not underfed, but I haven't had breakfast...) Standing in line for the ciabatta... The gyros-ish meatloaf came out fine. It would have been better with more fat (who says that?), but the meat that needed using was very lean. I suppose I could have added some butter, but who does that? Not I. It's tasty, though. I didn't go full out on the seasoning (i.e., used the recipe) because I'd never made this recipe before. It could be kicked up a bit, but the flavor is about right. The leanness means I can be generous with the oil and grill some up later. :) No yoghurt sauce since since there are no pita either and my cucumbers and dill both bit it in the fridge. Tomatoes, onions and peppers will be fine. :) Ann, one lesson I learned best from you is to just put things in the fridge. Fermenting yeast things, that is. Just put it in the fridge. It's the most freeing thing I've learned recently. I've read all about it, of course, and the pizza recipe is one that's meant to develop in the fridge, but the way you just whip up a levain and throw it in the fridge until you're ready, or make up some do and go off to work, with instructions to Moe for when to take it out. Of course it's a given that cold retards yeast, but so much of my bread life until now has been about keeping yeast warm and cozy and encouraging it to rise, retarding the rise in the fridge to manage the slow process of sourdough is a revelation. Thank-you! Edited to add link and fix weird typo. This post was edited by plllog on Tue, Aug 5, 14 at 20:51

Don't know how you are "feeding" but following the guidelines will promote success. You must always discard some starter before feeding it. (Starters are relatively high-maintenance "pets.") For more info, you might try a general search "how to make starter for bread" -- but no quote marks. Or you could go to the Cooking Forum with your questions. Another way to find out is to search "starter from grape leaves" -- but without the quotes. Can also try a related search "starter from grapes" In any case, it will take longer than several days to develop a lively culture. In the meantime, you can begin your starter with grape leaves but must ensure no pesticides used on the plant. Here is a link that might be useful: Cooking Forum This post was edited by jean001a on Mon, Jan 26, 15 at 14:31

Chris, if your kitchen isn't arctic, your starter should be fine on the counter while you're feeding it daily. If you have a heavy stone counter that never warms up to ambient, put the starter on a pot holder or something to insulate it from the cold mass. It doesn't need to be warmed. Even if most of the yeast died, there should be some left in there. The oven light shouldn't be hot enough to kill the yeast. Where there are bubbles, there's hope! My own guess is that the yeast gorged in the relative heat and settled in for a post-prandial nap. Let us know if it perks up on the next feeding.

I'm coming into this late and sleepy, so please forgive me if I misread something. If you have an underfed starter, it will smell boozy and may have gray liquid on top. That's alcohol, and part of die off. It's harmless. Grannies used to drink it for a short of free booze. You can stir it back in or pour it off., but definitely feed your starter more often. Once it's well established it can go a long time in the fridge, but if it even smells boozy rather than sweet, keep it out and feed it twice a day until the booziness goes away to keep it strong and the yeast healthy. If you have water on top, or starchy water, rather than booze, which is almost unheard of but could happen, you just have more hydration than the flour can absorb. You can hydrate less or use a more absorbent flour, or compensate with a little less water in your loaf. I don't like the slurry texture at 100% hydration, though I never got loose water from it. I keep my whole wheat starter at 80% and my white starter at 70%. Re the original question, what Gardengal said is standard practice. So too is making a pre-ferment with the starter and some of the flour and water from the recipe. That's after feeding the starter. What that does for you is allow the yeast to multiply without tackling the whole of a loaf of bread. It strengthens the final rise as well. BUT, you can use your starter right out of the fridge if you really want to, and skip the pre-ferment. The starter won't be active until it warms up, and the amount of flour around it could shock it a bit, but it will eventually rise if you leave it alone in a warmish place. It might take a few days, but it will rise. Baking with sourdough starter is not fast, especially if you;'re not baking daily from a warm active starter. Patience, and letting the dough rise in its own time, is key.