What is spec'd for the gas service line for the new range? It appears the new one uses a larger diameter than the previous. It sounds like your plumber understands this and is making the proper recommendation. If by "yellow thing" and "adapter" you mean the gas hose for the range, no, you do not use something smaller diameter than comes with the range.

If your new range is higher BTU total than the old, and you don't adequately size the supply line, your new range won't work to its fullest capacity because it won't get enough gas.

Look up your new range on the manufacturer's website and find the Installation manual/instructions. That will explicitly outline clearances, gas line sizing, etc.

Didn’t you read the specs for amount of gas needed and the pipe placement required? That’s one of the first things that should have happened when you were shopping. Well before trying to put it in place. Well before you ordered something with higher BTU’s that’s going to require redoing the whole too small gas pipe all the way from the meter. That means redoing the vent above too. It will also be inadequate.

Unless you want to return the range and get a standard consumer model like you had?

You still need that Kitchen Designer. You don’t know what you don’t know here, and it’s costing you,

Thanks Michelle, How do I test if my current pipe has enough BTU? Are the plumbers typically able to do this? What is the negative of having smaller gas pipe, just that heat will be lower than maximum rated value or is there a safety concern too?

FWIW, the gas company will inspect your work, if it does not meet their specifications, they will not connect.

Please contact your gas supplier for requirements.

Not just a licensed plumber, but one with a gas license. And more than likely you will need a permit.

In addition to the size of the pipe, there is the issue of the total BTUs of your gas supply. If you have other gas fixtures: heating, fireplace, gas lanterns, etc., they add up the maximum use of those, and you can't exceed the max.

This is not DIY work.

Oh for heaven's sakes! I know licensed plumbers who wouldn't feel confident about that kind of work. This is not something to crowdsource on a home-improvement website. You need a qualified plumber, among other things. You're endangering yourself, your family, and your neighbors.

Jim Mat,

This may be a regional thing - but I've never, ever had a gas utility inspect the work unless they have reason to be in the house and see something unsafe. In those instances they red-tag it and shut it off at the meter until you get it repaired. The instruction manual for the stove will spell out the requirements for the gas supply.

Most plumbers I know will do residential gas line work. Again, I suspect licensing requirements vary by location.

It may be that the 1/2" gas line to the range isn't enough to deliver the required BTU's when all of the burners are on. Some of the new stoves have much higher BTU requirements. It's unlikely that the change in the stove is going to be significant in the overall calculations for gas supply though.

Thanks Jake. I got a new plumber and he is saying that pipe coming in is 3/4. So he will just a get a valve that is also 3/4 to solve the mismatch.

He is saying we can’t put gas shutoff behind the range since it is a safety hazard as it won’t be reachable. It has to be in the cabinet as seen now.

Do you see any issues if I run this yellow Cable below from the valve to back into the wall and make it come out of the wall to allow for a flush fitting of the range? Is it better to use a rigid pipe instead of this cable? i am getting one last plumber come and take a look.

yes, I am having a professional do it.

i was speaking to the countertop and tile installers. They are saying that tile will come 3/4 inch out and this will give enough gap for the yellow cable to be hidden and still give a flush appearance. They are also saying Home Depot sells a small thing that can be used as a gap filler!

i Feel like I am doing a graduate degree in remodeling!

Arvind Swaminathan,

It's often hard to tell from photos the size of pipes without any reference. If he says it's 3/4" then you are good to go with the size of the gas supply.

I think the interpretation of where the gas valve must be located may not be correct. Virtually all gas valves for stoves are not accessible unless you slide out the stove. Again, if you look at the install diagram for your stove it will show the gas valve behind the stove (either through the wall or through through the floor). Your locality may interpret that gas valve issue differently though.

The "yellow cable" is called a gas appliance connector. It's corrugated stainless steel with a yellow jacket. Appliance connectors may not be installed in a wall. However, if you were to build a niche in the wall to provide clearance that would work. I still think you will need a new valve that will accept the correct flare fitting. Just an FYI: You don't want to re-use an appliance connector. Also, you want to use the flare fittings that come with the connector rather than using the old one (that appears to be brass and part of the valve).

This is the type of diagram you can expect for your stove.

Re: Gap filler - most places sell a small metal filler for the back of the slide-in range. You will still need to get the range back against the wall.

Thanka Jake. This is what the instructions say about the gas valve

zoomed in to just safety valve part

@Jake these are the instructions on the sizing. They also talk about a rigid gas pipe in this. So, it looks like they want to safety valve in the cabinet and then run a rigid pipe from there into the wall and back out?

You are right about the valve location. I haven't seen that instruction on the valve location before - but there it is.

Yes, you are looking at rigid pipe in the wall or coming back up through the floor if you have a crawl space or basement.

Most states don't actually require or issue a gas fitter's license to licensed plumbers. A few states have a separate license required for working with certain types of natural gas and other states have a gas fitters license for use by gas company employees and subcontractors who are required to have a license but don't need a full plumber's license.

I don't know a single plumber who would have the least bit of question about this kind of work. Natural gas is dangerous, but compared to waste, it is child's play, I have never met a licensed plumber who would have any issue at all with this.

Seriously, you grab the length and diameter table that every gas company hands out like candy and look them up. Figure out your lengths and check the BTU's you have. Largely, the fittings mean nothing. If your run is long enough you may well have to upsize the run to a 1/2 appliance fitting to a 1" supply. If the run is short enough, a 1/2" run will will easily supply a 3/4" appliance fitting.

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Finally, an undersized gas pipe is not the end of the world. Having a supply issue for a 30" or 36" range from a slightly undersized supply line would be exceedingly rare. How often are you preheating the oven while simultaneously firing off five burners at full power? I make almost every meal from scratch and I can't think of a single time I have ever had that happen. More often than not, two burners are set between 1,000 and 4,000 btu and one is going crazy to boil water for pasta, so even if I have something in the oven I might hit 50,000 btu.

I am glad you have a plumber and you should certainly have a competent plumber do this, but I suspect that you will find almost any supply solution sufficient. I am not going to guarantee that, as you could have a 200' long branch, but I strongly suspect that isn't the case and you will be fine.

Thanks @bry911. how do I find this length can diameter information? Just call the gas company with my address or will HOA know.

Any suggestions on how to conceal the appliance connector behind the wall so that I can put the range more in flush with the wall/tile?

I have had two plumbers come in and give me two opposite suggestions. Even the pros on this thread seem to think it is ok to have shutoff valve behind the range while the range instructions clearly say it needs to be outside of the range area so that it can be directly accessed. So TBH, I think all the holier than thou comments on this thread are a bit too much.

Even the pros on this thread seem to think it is ok to have shutoff valve behind the range while the range instructions clearly say it needs to be...

What pros? I don’t see any pros participating in this thread.

I am a licensed Florida plumber. There is no daylight between the position of Michelle, LWO, Jake, and me.

how do I find this length can diameter information?

Why do you want find the flow tables? If you have a plumber let them do that job. If it is to double check conflicting suggestions I will help you, but my initial impression is that this is well outside your ability to do without a professional.

Any suggestions on how to conceal the appliance connector behind the wall so that I can put the range more in flush with the wall/tile?

Cut a large hole in the wall...

ETA: I am not proposing that this is the solution but rather my attempt at some levity and a comment on making problems more difficult than they actually are. You shouldn't conceal the appliance connector. However, if it is an interior wall, just cutting a giant hunk out of the drywall will work.

Even the pros on this thread seem to think it is ok to have shutoff valve behind the range while the range instructions clearly say it needs to be outside of the range area so that it can be directly accessed.

My father made me get my first plumbing license when I was 18. I haven't renewed it or worked in plumbing since I was in college. I am far from a pro. Having said that, code enforcement is very much a local thing. I believe the code says that a shutoff should be within 6' of the appliance, outside the jacket of the appliance, and accessible (note: your adopted code may differ from that). The shutoff is meant for maintenance of the appliance rather than safety, so most localities allow a shutoff behind a pull out range. Some localities may enforce "accessible" more strictly and insist on a location that doesn't require moving the range. I am afraid that is really a local question.

Arvind Swaminathan,

You don't need to re-hash the gas supply issue in terms of, "is the gas supply up to that valve large enough". Your contractor said it was 3/4" - even if it's 1/2" like I suspected it's not the end of the world. If I were running the line in the first place I'd make sure it was 3/4" - but I probably wouldn't rip out 1/2" for a standard residential stove. Again, that depends on the length of the run.

I suspect you do have to replace the valve (again it's a out of focus photo) - You may not re-use the existing appliance connector and you need the proper stainless steel flare fitting. That looks like a brass fitting that was used on old style aluminum appliance connectors.

I regularly tell people to follow the instructions and don't "substitute" their knowledge - so when you posted the info on the valve location I didn't have much of a leg to stand on. In practice, I have always installed the valve behind the range (required to be in the same room). If there is an accessible space (basement, for example) I will install one there also if it's a new run.

You may not install an appliance connector in a wall. You can "notch" the wall to get your clearance - but the truth is that you can't really guide the appliance connector much once you start moving the stove back into place - so that's not generally a great solution (not to mention it's kinda bogus).

Know that requirements to do gas work do vary by locality - so you are going to get wildly different answers about who is "qualified".

If this in a “condo” type building you cannot move or change the gas pipe without approval from the HOA. If that is an existing valve you pictured, then just get the correct size fittings for the flexible connector for the range and valve. The new range will have a inset for the connection so you can slide the range to the wall. Or at least to the width of the flexible connector.

I am a licensed Florida plumber. There is no daylight between the position of Michelle, LWO, Jake, and me.

Oh, come on Joseph... Are you really saying that a person who has 108,000 btu of natural gas to an appliance should replace their line because the appliance has 5 - 20,000 btu burners, a 32,000 btu oven? Because in a nutshell that is what LWO is saying.

All,

From the photos we are assuming several things:

1. This is not a condo, an apartment or a multi-family housing situation.

2. The replacement stove is not a "Professional" stove that has exceptional fuel (and venting) requirements.

3. This isn't a $100k - rip out to the studs - redo. This looks like an upgrade the appliances, back splash, etc. redo.

If these assumptions aren't correct then my answers aren't correct.

I agree Jake and will add for myself...

4. These questions are being asked to better understand the situation rather than for the purpose of trying to DIY it.

The OP did state he has a HOA

"Thanks @bry911. how do I find this length can diameter information? Just call the gas company with my address or will HOA know"

The OP did state he has a HOA

So what? I have an HOA and I can barely see my closest neighbor's house. I just looked at another house on 10 acres with an HOA. In the South and Midwest HOA's are common and probably in most developments.

Even in a condo HOA changing the valve at an appliance may not (probably would not) trigger board approval and depending on line size entering the condo and how the gas pipes are run, changing the branch may not either.

I said a "condo type" building. You are talking about SFH. In a condo you cannot go "inside" any walls that border another unit or exterior, with any construction, without approval from the HOA. That is the "so what". I also stated he just needs to get the correct size fittings for flexible connector and slide in the new range. Look what you wrote..............

I said a "condo type" building. You are talking about SFH. In a condo you cannot go "inside" any walls that border another unit or exterior, with any construction, without approval from the HOA. That is the "so what".

Yes and no one disputed you at all when you said in a condo type building. But then you posted "The OP did state he has a HOA" to support that.

You were right in your first post, but what was your point in the second post? "So what" new information were you trying to convey by pointing out? I think we all read it and so we noted it.

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I am generally not a rebel but I would not bother notifying the condo board I was going to make a small notch to get the gas line past the edge lip of the appliance.

We are talking getting past a very small edge and thus a small notch that will be hidden by the appliance.

I am not advising you do what I would do, but seriously this is not a big problem and it shouldn't require big solutions.

I also stated he just needs to get the correct size fittings for flexible connector and slide in the new range. Look what you wrote

I have no idea what you are talking about. I didn't say anything about the fittings for flexible connectors. I have largely been discussing the rather ridiculous assertion that a gas line that is a bit undersized to a residential range is a huge problem.

His cooktop has 56,000 btu's and his oven might get another 33,000 with broiler. Odds are that a 1/2" gas line is sufficient and this is not an overly complicated problem, so going off on him for not knowing the specs on a Samsung slide in range before purchase is a bit of an overreaction.

I offered no solution on the valve at all other than to note the line size of the appliance doesn't dictate the line size of the supply. The fitting sizes largely don't matter, it is the btu calcs that are important. So I can't think of what I wrote in reference to your point.

By fittings, I mean get a connector that has the correct size fitting on each side for the new range and the existing gas pipe, hook them up and slide it in. I also could see doing that "notch in the wall and not making it an issue with the HOA.

Thanks @Jake The Wonderdoge and @bry911 your Suggestions have been amazing. And I greatly appreciate your patience in dealing with a novice. Yes, this is not a post to figure out a DYI But rather one to understand all this new terminology. Like I said I am being given 3 different suggestions by 3 different licensed plumbers. I think I finally have plan that could work to finally accept my appliance. I will first try to DM both of you to avoid getting yelled at by the remaining experts on this thread for my foolishnes! would appreciate it if you could take a look at the plan and let me know if there are any gotchas I need to discuss with the plumber and the Costco appliance installer.

Looks like there is no way to DM on Houzz. So, with the great of fear of being yelled let me publicly disclose the current plan. @Jake The Wonderdoge and @bry911 would appreciate a quick review. Rest pls ignore if you find this to be more foolishness. Jake and bry911 will let me know in a kinder way! :)

We have a gas log fireplace with 80k btu. model number of slide in I am installing is WEG745H0FS. Total BTU with all 5 burners + bake + broiler is 85k (45k increase from old cooktop). So, just fireplace absorbs all the increase. I will also make plumber add up all the BTus and check against the meter.

Plan that plumber and I came up with to make the appliance connector flush with the wall is

1. reduce size of the current pipe into the cabinet (he said he will add some threading). Another plumber talked about doing a reducer And changing the size, let me know if that is better.
2. add a L shape safety valve on this reduced pipe. (Instead of the current straight valve)
3. The new valve will fit the new appliance connector.
   With all this, the new appliance connector will be as flush with wall as possible. If the tile does not cover this space, I will add a filler and live with the 1-2in of extra jutting out (as a constant reminder of never doing a remodel again!).

If the BTU calcs don’t add up to the meter, I found I can ask PGandE for a meter resize. Due to the 80k fireplace margin and the fact that I won’t use all burners means we are probably ok until then. If Pg&E charges a lot for this, I will just use the safety margin due to non-concurrent use for as long as I live in the condo. I will disclose this when I am selling the condo and offer a really basic oven with low BTU settings when I am about to sell the house if new owner is worried about it.

Note: Condo is the term used in my title, I have two neighbors on each side with whom I share a wall but we have individual meters. So, I assume one units BTU increase does not affect the other. Let me know if I need to Verify this was well

Arvind Swaminathan,

Merry Christmas and I hope you can get this done soon.

This just isn't as tough as it's been made out to be.

You seriously don't have to worry about the total BTU's. I've never-ever-ever seen a residential stove impact the total BTU's. Not ever. Not once. Never.

The only potential issue is if you have 1/2" supply (and you run ALL OF THE BURNERS AT ONCE). Your contractor said it was 3/4". You have no issues with supply then at all. Forget about the gas logs, etc.

Notch the wall a bit. You will have 1/2" of drywall and if there's a stud you can notch it also. It's not the way I would do it -- but it's better than having your stove sticking out.

You do have to replace the valve - assuming you can't remove the flare fitting. No big deal. The valve will have a female thread on it and you can install the right flare fitting that comes with the new appliance connector.

This entire job is about an hour's worth. I'm sorry it's been so stressful.

Again, if I were doing this myself I'd just re-route the gas line to a valve behind the stove and be done with it. Notching the wall gets it done also.

Thanks for the reassurance @Jake The Wonderdog. Actually the latest plumber told me it is a 1/2. One of them did give me the option of increasing size to 3/4 using a reducer. Let me know if I should do it just to be to increase the margin (I did see it won’t totally compensate because part of it is still 1/2 but I heard it helps even if remaining part is increased).

Merry Christmas to you too!

Arvind Swaminathan,

Umm, so I'm not giving you grief... I just can't imagine a plumber looking at a pipe and not knowing if it's 3/4 or 1/2". Seriously. It's one thing looking at a photo with no good reference - it's another looking at it in person. Go to any hardware store and buy a 1/2" x2" black nipple and a 3/4" x 2" black nipple. Bring them home and compare the diameter to the pipe sticking out of the wall. You should be able to know right away what you have.

If you have 1/2" supply, you can make it larger going forward - but you can't get more gas through the supply you have (if that makes any sense). But don't make a 1/2" supply worse by using a 1/2" appliance connector and valve.

Below is the table you were asking about. It shows how many thousand BTU/h based on the length and diameter of the pipe. Elbows and such are the equivalent of 5' of pipe. (so, for example, if you had 20' of gas line and 2 elbows you would could pass 61k BTU/h through it).

Although it's rare to have ALL of the burners going at once (and broiler+oven - can that even happen?) - if you can't supply at about 2/3 of the needed BTU's then that's not really reasonable.

I want to be clear for everyone else - the right way to do this is to know the BTU's the stove will need and make sure you have the gas supply to the stove to run everything full-tilt.

Thanks for the info @Jake The Wonderdog. Yeah definitely not going with the one who gave the wrong pipe dimension. None of the plumbers can measure the total length since part of the Pipe is hidden in the wall. I can ask them to open the wall and see the size of the nearest Pipe of which the 1/2 inch is coming off. None of them I have spoken to till now also seem to have a way to measure the max BTU that can be supplied by the gas line feeding into the range. Just to confirm, from the chart it appears that resizing the meter won’t really help since 1/2 at certain length can only deliver so much BTU. Is that correct?

I will also consider downgrading to a smaller range or Using a gas + electric hybrid (we do have a 220v used by the old electric oven) in the longer run

That's correct. This isn't about the meter - 1/2" pipe of a given length can only deliver so many BTU's.

Again, I think you would be fine at two-thirds the total. I don't think the broiler and the oven burner can even operate at the same time. Less than that and it's just not reasonable.

Didn't know if it was reasonable to guestimate the gas line length.

A common setup is a gas top and an electric oven.

Last question @Jake The Wonderdog. I do a have a 220v electric outlet close to this area. If I go for an all electric range, will the specs tell me if one 220v is enough to power it?

Is it a 220v - 30 amp circuit?

"I am generally not a rebel but I would not bother notifying the condo board I was going to make a small notch to get the gas line past the edge lip of the appliance."

bry911--your insurance company and mortgage companies would beg to differ. And you'll be begging them in court if anything goes wrong. Mortgages and insurance in condo/co-op type buildings are specified to certain wall surfaces. There are people who work for those companies whose job it is to write and check those things. I have a friend who did that.

If you screw with something outside the boundaries of your mortgage, you can be in deep doo doo.

@Jake The Wonderdog looks like it. This is how the circuit breaker looks

bry911--your insurance company and mortgage companies would beg to differ. And you'll be begging them in court if anything goes wrong. Mortgages and insurance in condo/co-op type buildings are specified to certain wall surfaces. There are people who work for those companies whose job it is to write and check those things. I have a friend who did that.

I have done the entire primer on insurance policies before and I simply don't want to rehash it now. For some reason I did an entire thread over HO3, HO5 and HO6 policies. What is covered and what can be denied.

Can you present some reasonable grounds for an HO6 policy to deny a claim based on a two inch notch in the drywall? Please provide some evidence of that happening, because this is something I have looked at several times and I can't find any instance of an insurance company prevailing when denying because of a non-conforming work that was an indirect factor in the damage. Most states (probably every state) will have insurance regulations that specifically prevent this. Let's also not forget that most (really all) HO6 policies specifically protect you from being sued for your own negligence? So the entire assertion is beyond ridiculous.

For them to deny your damage they would have to demonstrate that the notch caused the damage. In the end, they are not going to do anything different because you notched your drywall. If they are looking for an excuse to deny your claim they are going to find one and hold to it until someone makes them pay.

Finally, if you are actually worried about the wall assembly squirt a little great stuff fireblock in it and be done with it.

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ETA: Just to be clear (and we are speaking generally because each case is a bit nuanced), insurance has some small leeway to decline to reimburse you for your negligence. However, there are many caveats with this.

First, negligence is more than doing something wrong, it is doing something that is unreasonably wrong. I feel confident that I would prevail when the insurance company claimed that making a 4" x 1" notch in drywall to get a range in is not reasonable. I feel confident that I can find thousands of exhibits to prove this is done a lot, and that is all you would really need to do to defeat a negligence claim.

Next, in reality that negligence must border on intentional. The classic example given is a water pipe leak that the homeowner lets happen for a week before calling someone to stop it. The biggest reason that homeowner claims get denied is not negligence it is indifference. Written into your policy there is a demand that you act to mitigate your insurance company's liability. You must take reasonable action to stop damage from worsening.

Furthermore, the severe negligence must be the proximate cause of your damages rather than an indirect factor. If that were the case insurance would never pay out they would just find something that you did wrong that made the situation worse. For example, you probably have chemicals stored improperly in your home, and in case of a fire those improperly stored chemicals might act as accelerants, and so insurance could walk into practically every home and deny the claim based on that fact. So to prevent this most states (I would presume every state) has rules against using secondary items to deny claims.

Finally, insurance would still reimburse your mortgage company if they denied claims on personal property for reimbursement so throwing the mortgage company in was just silly.

I could just keep on going, but the point being there are lots of scary stories about insurance but the reality is that insurance is a highly regulated industry and once you have some real insight into the industry you would be surprised how many of those big bad wolf stories are misconceptions.

@Jake The Wonderdog sorry two more questions

1. Is it ok to bend the appliance connector by almost 90 degrees (I.e almost L shape). i saw a note in the install instructions about not kinking too much.

2.suppose I add a rigid 3/4 inch pipe with two Ls back to the wall. This will make the appliance connector straight with the wall. How do I interpret the BTU table to figure out how much BTU will be available at the end of this “ new run”. Just using the number under 3/4 and 20 ft seems wrong (since that number is 160k btu/hr indicating all the BTU at the end of the 1/2 inch coming in can be delivered)

i will also ask the licensed plumber doing the job today but they tend to give different answers once they’ve made you their mind on how to do the job!

You can do a 90 sweeping bend with the appliance connector, just don't try to do it as a tight bend - it will kink. If you need to do it as a tight 90, then use elbows. If you are using 3/4" going forward - don't worry about additional length. The real source of any restriction will be the 1/2" pipe.

I would also adapt up to 3/4 before the new valve and then use a 3/4" valve. Valves tend to add restrictions to the pipe - a 3/4 valve will be less of a restriction than a 1/2" valve.

You know it wouldn't be terrible just to cut the drywall behind the stove and run black pipe inside the wall down the wall to the base of the stove and then stub-out of the wall and use your appliance connector -- leaving the valve in the cabinet. That would involve a little more work but would be more legit than notching the wall.

You can replace the drywall and tape it without having to worry about what it looks like.

Gotcha thanks for the info @Jake The Wonderdog

@Jake The Wonderdog will adding an adapter (are they the same as reducer) and elbows after the fact increase chance of leaks. Or Are all these elbows, reducers and pipes pretty good at sealing themselves completely shut (assuming installation is done by a licensed plumber).

Qq: how do I check if someone is licensed to operate with gas pipes?

Done properly they will not leak. In addition, they will test for leaks.

"how do I check if someone is licensed" Hire a legit plumber and ask them - then rely on what they tell you.

In CA, a plumber will have a license number, that number can be checked on line.

CA may have 20-50 different licenses, C = contractor, then a number: e.g., C - 10 Electrical. The contractor has passed a test and is licensed by the state. Please note, the person who passed the test may not be the technician who performs the work.

“Double knot” made it Pretty flush! plumber also found that pipe coming into the house is 1.25in and he thinks 0.5 is very short. Costco delivery will turn on all burners + oven and check. Fingers crossed! thanks for all the advice @Jake The Wonderdog. Thinking I will just live with the 1 in potrusion for now..after a few drinks may get greedy and consider the notch idea.