To answer I would have to ask, what type of cooking do you do? What type of cookware do you use. How do you use your ovens? Is a broiler important? What type of oven do you have now?

I think the best configuration is a rangetop and wall ovens. You can pick each part as “best” for the way you cook. You aren’t buying certain burners and getting the oven that comes with them. If the oven goes bad, you don’t have to replace the whole range. You might pick two regular ovens or a regular oven and a combi oven.

I would avoid Wolf electric ovens, wall, dual fuel range and induction range because of a 10+ year history of chipping of the blue enamel. They keep saying it has been fixed, but it keeps happening.

Don’t consider Miele any further. Their customer service, and actual appliance service is awful. Perform a search here and read the deteriorating reviews over time. One wonders whether they are going to remain in the US market for much longer.

“I am deciding between these brands...”

Your question presupposes that you will buy a suite of appliances from a single vendor. This may not be the best way to get the kitchen you want, although I understand it is cost effective. I’d go for the SZ refrigerator, Thermador ovens, and the Wolf range.

”wondering why wolf is more.”

I don’t know. SubZero/Wolf/Cove is an American company that manufactures most of its appliances, and all of its refrigeration in the US. Thermador is owned by Bosch, a German company, and their refrigerators are made in Turkey. Perhaps it costs less to build a refrigerator in Turkey and ship it to the US than it does to build one here.

“or is that overkill...”

You want electric ovens because their temperature is more constant/stable, so if you were thinking of a gas range, you would optimally go for dual fuel. As to whether you need three ovens, that depends on your family and how you live. My guess is that one of them will go unused.

@wekick we do a lot of baking, baking fish, we do not broil often, baking pizzas, and a lot of stove top cooking (curries, soups, pastas, etc.

@eam44 i actually wanted to mix brands but was told for home resale it is a negative, we don’t plan to move soon and will panel the fridge so doesn’t really matter but made me nervous.

I had heard that electric ovens dry out meat though we don’t cook meats that often it made me wonder if a range with wall oven was best.

“I actually wanted to mix brands but was told for home resale it is a negative.”

Not true. Well, true at the lower end, but you are building a cook’s kitchen with top tier appliances. Your buyers will see you’ve gotten the best of everything.

“I had heard that electric ovens dry out meat”

Both gas and electric ovens are thermal ovens, meaning they produce heat, one way or another, retain the heat, and convert the heat so that it transfers to the food you are cooking. Both types of ovens will cycle on and off to maintain the set temperature, but an electric oven is digitally controlled by its thermostat, whereas a gas oven does this by igniting gas, which is less precise, so the temperature in the oven cycles up and down a bit more. There is no difference in how dry anything gets, just in how even the temperature is.

A steam oven injects steam into this process for for baking and even in conjunction with roasting. It’ll keep your food moist because it’s literally cooking with water.

Are you sure you want a range? Because you could get a rangetop, and have an electric convection oven paired with a steam oven on the wall, which is probably what I would choose. If you really want a range then I’d go for a dual fuel with convection, and put a steam oven on the wall, perhaps with a microwave combi oven (convection microwave).

@eam44 i would prefer not range actually and just get a rangetop. For some reason most of the high end homes in our area have ranges so wasn’t sure if there was some benefit I wasn’t seeing. We considered range top with oven and steam oven but the steam oven was small so my wife though we needed double oven

The steam oven is smaller than a conventional oven but it is very nimble, and pretty quick. It’s large enough that you can bake multiple loaves of bread in it at the same time, and quick enough that it frees itself up for more work in short order. At Thanksgiving, you’d be roasting your turkey in the steam oven, and baking your sides on multiple racks in the convection oven, but your turkey will be ready in 2 1/2 hours, so you’ll be able to put pies in the steam oven before you sit down to eat.

Still, if your wife is the primary cook, and she feels she needs more oven space, she needs more oven space. Even if she doesn’t really.

@eam44 What makes you choose thermador for the over but wolf for the rangetop? I know that subzero has some definite benefits as a refrigerator vs other brands.

I would mix brands. No one manufacturer makes the best of everything.

“There is no difference in how dry anything gets, just in how even the temperature is.”

There are differences in gas and electric ovens that are because of the structure of the oven due to the type of fuel that it has. A gas oven has a much bigger vent because the products of combustion must be vented out. This puts more heat and moisture into the kitchen, but also has effects in baking and roasting because of the difference in humidity. Electric ovens hold onto the moisture that evaporates from food because it has a much smaller vent.

- If you read the baking and cooking forums, bakers that add steam to the oven for bread have a very difficult time keeping it in a gas oven.

-On the other hand gas ovens are reported to be better for roasting because they brown better. This is because the drier environment causes superficial drying and allows the temperature of the surface to go up and the chemical reactions that produce browning to take place. This is a negative for some baking because it inhibits starch gelatinization which inhibits the rise on some cakes and muffins. Baking is complex though so if you have been baking in a gas oven and have recipes that work, they will work in the next gas oven. You might notice more difference if you have electric and go to gas.

Many gas ovens now keep a very close temperature. Some posters here have about 5-10°F difference from the set temperature. Aside from humidity, gas ovens are usually pretty straight forward. The convection fan just goes on and off. With an electric oven, you can control the direction of heat, the speed and direction of convection fans with a combi oven you can also control the humidity. The problem is that it is very hard to get it all right.

“A steam oven injects steam for is great for baking and even in conjunction with roasting. It’ll keep your food moist because it’s literally cooking with water.”

Meat gets dry because it is over cooked. External moisture has nothing to do with internal moisture. Always cook to internal temperature. You could put a piece of meat in a pot of water and dry it out if the internal temperature goes too high.

I would look at a combination steam oven(CSO or combi oven) rather than just a steam oven. It can work as a convection oven but also the best ones have a sensor to control humidity. Gaggenau’s manual has some of the best explanation of what humidity levels are used when.

“We considered range top with oven and steam oven but the steam oven was small so my wife though we needed double oven”

This is why I don’t have a combi oven. I have a 36” and 30” oven and I can fill them both. There are some bigger combi ovens though. Look at the Miele XXL size. Most turkeys cooked in an electric ovens get quite a bit of steam because the big roasting pan is constantly giving off steam. There is a lot you can do to control the humidity in a regular electric oven if you need to.

As far as burners, have you looked at BlueStar? Have you considered induction?

“Still, if your wife is the primary cook, and she feels she needs more oven space, she needs more oven space. Even if she doesn’t really.”

Let’s see, who is in the best position to make a rational decision about what kind of space they need? I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that it is the one using the appliances.

RE: ovens, it’s a personal preference. My sister has an ancient Thermador oven that I love. Also, Wolf has had issues with enamel chipping in the past.

RE: rangetop, I’d actually prefer the BlueStar with its open burners, excellent high and low temperatures an ease of cleaning and maintenance. Second place would be Capital Culinarian. But between Wolf and Thermador, I’d go with Wolf. It’s incredibly reliable in this space.

Of course you understand no one is talking about overcooking anything, whether in a gas or electric oven or in a steam oven. Dry cooking use convection (air) and conduction (the metal in your pan) to transfer heat to food, and there is no difference in how this is accomplished in a gas or electric oven. A steam oven uses conduction and convection using air and water in the form of steam to transfer the heat to your food.

When I say, “you’re actually cooking with water,“ of course I don’t mean you’re adding water to your food. The moisture a steam oven uses actually makes bread crisper on the outside as a result of improved convection. The outside surface of whatever you’re cooking is more thoroughly “covered” in heat because of the steam. It’s like searing a roast, it keeps the juices in.

I oike The theoretical idea of conduction top but don’t understand the pros and cons well enough to have looked more seriously. in the past I have had electric stove tops and hated it and felt it didn’t cook well at all. I assumed Conduction would be similar.

The induction vs. gas cooktop/rangetop choice is a subject with lots of posts here on Houzz. Use the search tool if you want to enter into that realm! Both are great, but there’s nothing wrong with sticking with what you know. You can always add an induction burner to your cooking zone as well. Good luck with your choices. I hope your new appliances work well for you.

Of course you understand no one is talking about overcooking anything, whether in a gas or electric oven or in a steam oven...

Yes, they are. The OP was concerned about meat being dry in electric vs gas. The reason for internally dry meat is over cooking. No amount of external moisture will help that whether it be wet steam or completely submerged in a pot of water. It is a physiological process, when you apply heat.

https://blog.thermoworks.com/beef/coming-heat-effects-muscle-fibers-meat/

“Dry cooking use convection (air) and conduction (the metal in your pan) to transfer heat to food, and there is no difference in how this is accomplished in a gas or electric oven. A steam oven uses conduction and convection using air and water in the form of steam to transfer the heat to your food. “

You are ignoring the presence of steam and humidity in a regular oven or maybe you are not aware of it.

When I say, “you’re actually cooking with water,“ of course I don’t mean you’re adding water to your food.

Yes but you said “It’ll keep your food moist because it’s literally cooking with water.”

I think you missed my point again. Steam will only keep the surface moist. Even if you submerge meat in water, so that all sides are covered in water, that would not be enough to keep meat moist inside because it has to do with internal temperature.

“The moisture a steam oven uses actually makes bread crisper on the outside as a result of improved convection.”

No, the steam makes bread crispy by increasing starch gelatinization. The starch absorbs the water on the surface and moisture coming from inside the bread. It eventually forms a gel, the proteins denature and browning reactions take place. A combi oven moves through different parts of the cycle to produce different conditions. Steaming only takes place the first part of baking and then at some point it uses dry heat and convection to promote drying, so crisping and browning. The Gaggenau manual as I referenced above explains this beautifully. “Convection” refers to the movement of the air. It rises as it is heated and falls as it is cooled. In convection ovens, whether it be a standard oven or combi oven, it has fan assisted convection so the increase in movement of the air increases the rate of heat transfer. This makes things cook a little faster but dries the surface so it will brown.

“The outside surface of whatever you’re cooking is more thoroughly “covered” in heat because of the steam. It’s like searing a roast, it keeps the juices in.”

Searing does not keep the juices in.

https://amazingribs.com/more-technique-and-science/more-cooking-science/myth-searing-steaks-seals-juices

Amazing Ribs is a great site to understand how cooking meat works.

This is an article about ovens written a few years ago by Nathan Myhrvold,, principal author of Modernist Cuisine and he talks about humidity in ovens.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/gadgets/nathan-myhrvolds-recipe-for-a-better-oven

Miele has brought a series of full surface induction cooktops to the market in Europe since April. These KM 7000 series hobs are not yet offered by Miele USA. Hopefully this will change soon.

“No, the steam makes bread crispy by increasing starch gelatinization”

Because of improved convection.

Some people post because they want to help. Others just need attention, and you get a lot of those folks around the holidays. Best of luck with your appliance choice.

@darbuka What made you choose Miele for the wall ovens vs Wolf and Thermador? And has the large star burners had any issues with smaller pots?

@Eric M, I chose the Miele ovens for two reasons. According to what I read here (the old GardenWeb), the Miele CSO is easier to clean, and more user friendly. And, Wolf had/has the problem of the blue enamel chipping in the convection ovens. Never considered Thermador for ovens, as they weren’t really mentioned much.

No problem with small pots on the star burners. I just turn the flame down, so it doesn’t overlap the sides. Also, the flame can be turned down to a nice simmer.

If you want star burners to provide even heat to the bottom of the pan, compare BlueStar to Thermador.

I would try to find a live range to see for yourself how the flames hit your pots. The smallest width of pan I use on the Wolf regular burners is 7”s in diameter. There is a small pan burner that will take a smaller pot though. Not sure if Thermador has that.

______

“Some people post because they want to help. Others just need attention, and you get a lot of those folks around the holidays. “

Hmmm.

I’ve been posting here for many years. If you have been on the appliance forum very long, you’ve surely seen my posts. If you think differently about something than I do, rather than making disparaging comments about me, tell how you think it works and the reasoning behind it. That’s what many do and it leads to some pretty good discussions. I have learned a lot that way over the years. When you say “There is no difference in how dry anything gets, just in how even the temperature is.” You can expect that would be challenged for a number of reasons.

I think helping people includes educating them factually about what they are buying. It is often the counterpoint to the marketing they hear. To me in helping, it is important to ask questions about how people use their appliances so that you can help them make informed, individualized choices that will serve them well in the way they cook. If someone says they need two full sized ovens, I would never say “Even if she doesn’t really.” because I have no idea what goes on in their kitchen.

I guess we each have our own way of helping.

One comment on Thermador as an oven. They revamped the entire line last year and went to a touch/swipe screen control. The newer models have a smaller cavity and lower maximum temperature than the previous models. One might infer this means the electronics are even more sensitive to heat.

I have been using the previous model Thermador Professional oven for the last 6 months and like it a lot. We agonized over which oven to get. Considered the Miele but it added a lot of complexity with the menus that I did not find user-friendly, plus reports were surfacing of the door glass shattering.

Had GE not decontented the Monogram ovens with thinner gauge racks and adding Wifi, etc., I would have gotten Monogram. I had the ZET2 ovens that came out in 2005 or 6 and adored them! Fabulously even heating, intuitive display, smart behavior (oven is on = oven light is on), great racking. I hate the new racking those ovens have. My Thermador is much closer to the older racking, and while it cooks beautifully I do need to swap cookie sheets around during a bake. Never had to do that with the Monogram (on multi-rack convection) even with racking in all positions. Oh, and the older Monogram had really beefy full extension racking for every rack AND you could fit a rack and cookie sheet in each of the positions. Thermador is 3 and 3 beefy extension and standard racking. New Monogram has much lighter-gauge full extension and I don't think you can put the racks in adjacent slots.

I did not consider Wolf for an oven at all given the problems with the blue enamel interiors. I do high temperature baking often, and would not trust Wolf's enamel.

@Michelle misses Sophie so would you avoid the new model because of less heat tolerance? Im leaning toward thermador or blue star at this point since I have a friend that works for them

@Evan Man if I were buying today and could not get the older Thermador, I would be looking at Monogram or Bosch Benchmark. I think Thermador has made a mis-step with the current ovens going for "snazzy" over function. Their blog and website seem to point in that direction as well.

How is Bluestar customer service? I am also looking for a range. I narrowed down to Bluestar or Wolf. Blue star doesn't have self cleaning.

Wolf DF has self clean but the blue enamel often does not do well if you use it. Mine failed after about the third or fourth use. There are lawsuits over this.

http://www.wolfblueovenchipping.com/case-information/

The blue liners can also chip without using the self clean.

BlueStar doesn’t have self cleaning because it’s 85% of the cause of issues with other brands of ovens. It doesn’t have fancy electronics for the same reason. Those create service calls. You can work on every part of a BlueStar yourself. They focus on simple.

They are the continuation of the old simple Garland commercial ranges that Julia Child used to cook on. They just added insulation and other safety features for the home. It doesn’t get more “pro-style” than that. They are the real deal professional restaurant range. Just legal to put in your home.

I had a thermador duel fuel with self cleaning for many years without any problem. Their interior was solid. I loved it. I would get it again if they kept the old design.

It looks like Bluestar is the way to go for me. What do you think of colored model? Does the paint stay on well? Or am I better off staying with SS?

Have you made your decision/bought yet? If so what did you get? We're in the midst of our search too, and if you're still shopping I would opine.

@Noah Klein I think I settled on Miele for everything and Sub Zero for the column refrigerators. I can still change but likely will stick with that. What are you leaning toward?

We settled on the Miele also. Bought the CSO and the mid wall oven. Still not sure about induction brand.

@Evan Man We’re getting the Miela 30” double oven with steam assist, built in warning drawer. Subzero 48’ side by side refrigerator, comin Viking VRT366BSS gas rangetop, Sharp microwave. Bosch dishwasher, Zephyr hood, XO wine cooler. Where are you planning to buy?

@Eric M - Curious what you went with and are you happy with your choice?

I am trying to decide between the Thermador double wall oven and a Bosch. Love the look of the Thermador but feel the Bosch is a smarter choice based on CR and other reviews. Anyone have recent experience with a new Thermador?

There seem to be alot of comments in this forum that say the Thermador fan in the oven is very noisy. I haven’t really followed it though so maybe do a search

We installed Thermador double wall ovens, gas range, and dishwasher about 18 months ago. About a month ago, the glass in the top oven exploded during a self clean. There are three panes of glass in the door and it was the middle glass that exploded. The first warranty service appointment was not available for 3 weeks. When making the appointment I carefully explained which glass had shattered - today the service repair man showed up with the wrong glass. The next available appointment is not for another 8 days.

Very unhappy with Thermador Customer Service - we will be without ovens for almost a month by the time of the next appointment - would not recommend purchasing from Thermador just based on the fact that their warranty service center has no availability! #Thermador

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@Susan

Before the glass exploded, did you like your ovens or feel they were loud?

I would love to hear from those of you who have purchased the Miele CSO stacked with conventional oven.

@darbuka and @lily @Evan Man @Noah Klein and others reading>>>>>>>

I can only use the 24" combi with water tank due to no plumbing on that wall, and want to pair it with a 30", is there a trim kit? Can you post a photo of your stack if they are different sizes?

I am the poster child for the Wolf DF range. Purchased in 2006, and then started hearing about the chipping interior. I was afraid to use the self clean! However, I braved it, and now in my 15th year, no chipping. I often cook at 450, so apparently I escaped the dreaded chipping. It has been a workhorse, and free of service. The only issue is the most commonly used burner's starter clicks, and needs a repair. We also have a plumbed gagg CSO, it was fairly new to market, and though the designer tried to talk me out of spending so much on something I have never used, it is by far the most used and my favorite appliance of all time. The Miele Optima was ahead of it's time with the cutlery tray, and that has been serviced twice in it's 15 years. I'd say I made some great selections, and a lot had to do with input from the Garden Web.

I would repeat this purchase in a heartbeat, but I need a water tank CSO this time, and not sure about the Gagg conventional. Additionally, the snowbird home I am renovating is on a slab, and no gas/propane. So all-electric here we come. I want a CSO/convention in the wall.

Induction cooktops: I see comments in appliance threads that buyers fear ranges due to potential replacement of "both units". I fear a drop-in induction cooktop for fear I can't find a good replacement for the hole in 7 years. I have read that most will last about 6-10 years, and don't want to replace a quartz counter due to new cooktop. I am leaning towards the GE Monogram white/silver for ease of repairs and aesthetics (yes, not best in class, but perhaps best for this purchase), but have not ruled out selecting best of, which could be something else (Wolf or Miele).

Thanks for any opinions.

Our renovation plans changed and we decided to go with Thermador again. We didn’t go with the steam oven as our renovation didn’t allow for the plumbed in version and I didn’t want the non-plumbed. Happy with my choice though. Good luck!

@Cris C we are still finishing but we did black with black trim kit. the silver Trim kit we found too obvious.

Thank you @lily and @Evan Man. I agree that with your pairing, a silver trim kit would not work as well.

Glad to hear you both made your decisions! I had a long time on my previous primary home to decide before we even hired our contractor....now I feel more crunch, as we are set to begin in June, and I have a lot of ideas floating in my head and too much inattention to get to the finish line.

“I would love to hear from those of you who have purchased the Miele CSO stacked with conventional oven.

@darbuka and @lily @Evan Man @Noah Klein and others reading>>>>>>>

I can only use the 24" combi with water tank due to no plumbing on that wall, and want to pair it with a 30", is there a trim kit? Can you post a photo of your stack if they are different sizes?”

@Cris C…we have the 24” Miele CSO with water tank, paired with the 30” convection oven. Yes, there is a trim kit for the 24” CSO, which you can see here:

We purchased the 24” CSO, because that’s all there was 5+ years ago when we did our renovation. Both ovens are fantastic!

Thank you @darbukak! You all are so helpful. I would have loved to consider the larger CSO, but will need to weigh in the price for getting water sewer over there (jack hammering slab) vs. tank and smaller. My sensible side tells me to save the expense and super luxury in a part time home. The pairing is very beautiful.

@Cris C…people make a big deal about having to deal with the tanked version. Really, it takes a few seconds to dump the old water, and refill with fresh. Removal and installation of the tank, is a snap. Also, 24” is large enough to cook everything, except a large turkey.

In my setting, I much prefer the stainless trim kit, to the black.

@darbuka I have cooked a 14 lb turkey in my 24" gagg....tight, but works for small gathering. I will agree that the size suits 99% of our needs, and I am not purchasing it for a Thanksgiving turkey, so I am on board with another 24". The plumbed version makes it easy (user-wise), but agree that the extra step is not likely too cumbersome to have the steam.

I apologize if this is in the wrong thread as this may be my first houzz thread post. Mostly a silent observer but I'm in need of some advice. We're starting a kitchen remodel in July and I've been agonizing over the stove/fridge. First things first, I'm not dead set on matching all of the appliances. I'm a firm believe in best of breed and as some others have posted above means buying different things from different companies.

Here's what were planning on installing in the new kitchen: 48 inch stove with dual ovens, we're not splitting the ovens and range top. A 36 inch fridge, was thinking built in but if there are other options to consider I'm game. A dishwasher and perhaps a drawer microwave.

I've been waning a Blue Star stove for the longest time but I've now read enough threads here to make me question that. Are they truly that problematic? Between tales of the convection fan turning off when the gas is going in the oven to the horrible customer service, is that really the experience people have had? They look beautiful. I'm more of a no-frills kind of guy and believe that simpler is better and lasts longer. I have a friend with a 20 year old blue start hat has had exactly two things break on it in 20 years: an igniter and a rack clip. That's it. Has the company gone down hill? What attracted me to the blue star was the insane BTU and configuration of using a griddle/grill on any of the burners. The circular grates for a wok are also attractive in my head and purely functional. However the reviews and one appliance store salesman have made me question wether this is a good investment. Originally we had been planning on a built in fridge from BS and the Platinum 48" Stove.

So now that I've been reading a bunch more I'm wondering if perhaps I shouldn't consider WOLF or Miele. Between the two which would you choose? Thermador is a contender but Miele seems to have some nice features. As I said I prefer no frills, but it seems that outside of the BlueStar most of the other brands incorporate a bunch of new features and technologies.

Before you ask, we do all kinds of cooking. My wife bakes and I do everything sous vide cooking in a circulator bath to low and slow braising, high heat searing of animal proteins, pretty much everything. I always figured that at this level and this price point most of these unites would be fairly bullet proof and last for a good long time. I hadn't really thought about the customer service aspect of purchasing something so pricey but it occurs to me now that perhaps I should.

Are there any brands besides Thermador, Miele, Wolf and Blue Star to consider that deliver similar performance or are in that same class? Someone suggested Heston but I wasn't thrilled with what i saw or read about them.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

Cheers.

Wolf or Thermador for range. Miele's gas burners are "unimpressive" and even the local appliance guy who loves Miele ovens turned us away from the gas rangetop.

Consider FiveStar as well. Not as well known (outside of Tennessee where they are made).

I was also going to suggest Capital, but I am reading some posts from 8 months ago that they were bought out. Not sure by who...