You’ll be looking at this kitchen a LONG time. If you are a symmetry person...it will always bug you subconsciously if it is “off.” I’d try hard to get the aesthetic you want (within functional reason.)

Why on earth would you want to remove the powder room? It sounds like you entertain regularly...where would any of y’all go to the bathroom? Am I missing something? :)

Forgot to mention, I have a Bosch dishwasher with a 30-minute cycle, which I love when we have parties and holiday get-togethers. Something to consider for at least one of your dishwashers.

@nini804. There are two powder rooms on the main floor.

@beckysharp Ty!

I like this, ( no surprise ) and I think you get your symmetry with a focal point on the range. Your kids ditch coats, bypass your cook with a stop at the loo and then grabbing a bag of chips, sail past your prep, especially with an under counter drinks fridge in there. Or beverage drawers... Frankly, given the size of house and all else, best yet. But you are the decider. The lot is the lot, and unless the footprint of the house will change, you have limits, and they are greatly enforced by the stair.

I don't know if this means range vs cook top, what "baking station" implies. But for traffic and house size? It works. Especially the pantry entrance from the garage. It' easy in the the checkout line to separate dry goods from chilled and frozen and bag accordingly. Seeing dirty dishes? Clean as you go! They wouldn't have been "hidden" anyway. For that you need a dining room. The bottom line is the kitchen and living area are just not that darn big : )

Word of advice? Go look at the dual fuel Monogram 36 inch PRO range. I have not ONE client who doesn't love it; also the fact it will also hold catering size cookie sheets. It's a machine at 36 inches, it really is.

if I was you I would adjust the refrigerator plans. Do a large refrig in your kitchen and put the other one in the basement. It will make for easy access from the lake and help your kitchen planning.
We also only had two doors in to the mud room one from the garage and another one to the backyard, in your case the lake. I definitely would steal some room from that mud room closet and add a shower to that bath.

JAN MOYER, The architect did this and put the baking station in. His wife is a baker and prefers a slightly lower counter. I don't bake bread etc. So I'm not sure if that would be helpful. This week I did make pierogies and the counter was a bit high for me to roll out the dough at my current island. But I would do that at max a few times a year. Not sure if I would include a "baking station" with this plan, but that's what he drew.

The architect did this and put the baking station in. His wife is a baker and prefers a slightly lower counter. I don't bake bread etc. So I'm not sure if that would be helpful. This week I did make pierogies and the counter was a bit high for me to roll out the dough at my current island. But I would do that at max a few times a year. Not sure if I would include a "baking station" with this plan, but that's what he drew.

Do you bake cookies with the kids? Do you think you might in future?

My spidey sense in tingling : ( . Did the architect ask you, and/or your husband, how and what you cook and what you might like to have in your kitchen? And did he ask about your particular interest and preferences for the rest of the house?

beckysharp Reinstate SW Unconditionally, He asked if we liked to cook, bake and entertain. Not in a lot of detail. Yes, I do bake with my kiddos. We had a lot of back and forth with the rest of the house, but I feel like we got what will work for us. Although now, I wish we started with the kitchen and worked our way out.

He asked if we liked to cook, bake and entertain. Not in a lot of detail. Yes, I do bake with my kiddos.

Is there anything else we should know about what your family likes to cook, how you entertain, how you use the kitchen? What sort of things do you and the kids like to bake? Do you roll out dough regularly for anything else besides pierogies -- pizza, cookies, pastries?

Do you want drawers where you can have large storage containers of flour, sugar, etc? In my island, I have one large drawer below with two large rectangular storage containers, one for flour and one for sugar. Above that, I have a smaller drawer with baking soda, baking powder, vanilla extract and other flavorings, a jar of homemade vanilla sugar, tapioca starch, cocoa, baking chocolate, etc. In the drawer next to the bulk flour and sugar, I keep smaller amounts of various specialty flours.

Do you have a large collection of tablecloths or candles or ??? for entertaining? Do the kids do crafts in the kitchen, and if so, do they need a place to store their supplies?

In my home now, all my baking items (bulk flour, and everything else) is all located in my island. I love it. I love that I can make almost anything, use it and put it right back. I would love to have that in my new home.

I see my pantry as being storage of dry food snacks and foods, paper products, cans, preserves etc.

I am trying to get used to the idea of no window at the sink but I'm not sure I could. I have a window at my sink now and I do enjoy the sun on my face. But everyone is right. With two dishwashers, I hope to not be doing a lot of dishes. It's not my favourite kitchen job.

Please be patient with me everyone. I don't want to give up on this until it feels exactly right. We're spending a good chunk of our lifesavings doing this. I don't want to regret it, or think that I didn't pay attention to that feeling of not totally being happy.

What does everyone think about this? The only thing I can think that is wrong with it is that it is far to bring in groceries. But hubby does the groceries so, oh well. Haha. The square footage is higher, but that may not be a huge deal.

One other thing that concerns me about the current plans is that I don't have room to put out buffet style food. Most of our entertaining is family style (food on the table), but when we have company we usually do buffet style because our family is so big.

Under my other plans, if people were sitting at the island I don't know where I would put buffet style food. And yes, this is something we do a lot. In the summer, more weekends than not.

@beckysharp Reinstate SW Unconditionally, @JAN MOYER, @nini804, @Patricia Colwell Consulting, @mama goose_gw zn6OH, wilson853

* To clarify, I meant to say 50/50 family style vs. buffet style with company.

Please be patient with me everyone. I don't want to give up on this until it feels exactly right. We're spending a good chunk of our lifesavings doing this. I don't want to regret it, or think that I didn't pay attention to that feeling of not totally being happy.

That's why I'm being a pain in the a*s and asking you more questions : ) .

@beckysharp ...I did think boy, I wish my KD asked me this!

Maybe another thing about this latest plan that isn’t the best is if you are emptying a pot of hot water. However, with a larger island, the prep sink could be slightly larger than a normal prep sink, allowing that to happen there.

I wish i was home. I’d draw you out an L shaped kitchen plan. If you can wait until after Thanksgiving I’d be happy to show you

PS: Symmetry is overrated. The only time you would notice is if you were standing dead center facing the island

First, You don't need a 48 inch cook top, and a 36 inch PRO range would save space. There's nothing you can't cook or bake on/in it

You DO need a microwave and extra oven? Fine!

In a kitchen this size, and on the layout I like? I'd put both a single 30 inch micro and that

extra oven where the baking center is on his plan

For an architect? His concept and sense of traffic through, was darn decent. Appliances drive the kitchen in both function and looks. Get firm on them, don't overestimate "kiddo's" as they grow and are home less. ..........and are out more with sports and activities.

Appliances, and acceptance........within the foot print. Or ? That covered porch needed to be interior conditioned space : ) For YOUR wish list.

I just finished a new kitchen for a client, not much different from yours. On a lake. She routinely has forty folks on weekends for breakfast, lunch dinner.I bet you can manage.

Actually, it would be very helpful, to show us the kitchen you have right NOW. The one where you mass prep the food, and set up the buffet and all that stuff.

laura, I like your latest iteration so much better. I think that you have checked most of your boxes. I would consider moving the bar fridge to your buffet area and would also move the prep sink in from the edge of the island so that you have landing space for items going from the refrigerator to the prep sink. I like my prep sink across from my range top as I am often pivoting between the two. I've had both a 36" and 48" cooking surface and much prefer the 48". Two can work side by side and it gives me a safe spot to land items from the ovens while still using the burners. I moved ours a couple inches away from the wall so that I have more room for a large stockpot in the rear. Adding the extra foot on top gave me an extra foot in the drawers below so as it happily turned out all of my cookware now fits perfectly with no more nesting or stacking. The bottom drawer is deeper so that my tallest stockpots and fry pans can fit vertically.

Just noticed my plan didn't include wall ovens. Not sure where they would go? My first thought is on the exterior wall closer to the pantry (but not directly in the door way). Looked at the pro-ranges. Not sure those are in my budget.

Did the very obvious problem of the cooktop being on the other side of the kitchen from the ovens get resolved?

What "obvious problem" ? A cook top has LITTLE to nothing to do with ovens. Ovens are a put it in there, set timer, walk away appliance.

The OP needs a sit down ONE ON ONE with a certified KD, a firm budget for the kitchen, and a firm appliance selection, within that kitchen. All this within the current envelope of the house, and the sacrifices that go with that envelope. At some point this is a wheel spin. : ) or a whine, or both . Kitchen are much like husbands. A handsome guy , a narcissist, a wandering brat? , ...........his looks will "fade" fast to oblivion for you. . A hardworking soul with a sense of humor who puts you first? He's a keeper. .......isn't he?

Integrating some of the comments... This kitchen is feeling more like home to me.

@JAN MOYER - My current kitchen sucks. The only good thing about it is the island. It's not worth posting.

The font was too small on the previous picture. This is better.

@JAN MOYER LOL to the husband comment! I do have a keeper and he does put up with my wheels spinning, and a lot more, haha. This feels productive to me, because I'm feeling better about my kitchen and mud room. I did sit down with a KD. She gave me lots of options. Something wasn't exactly right with what I got though. I went back to her a few times, but here I am.

And why do I have to stick within the current envelope? We don't even have structural drawings yet. Now's the time.

cpartist and her plan would be well worth waiting for.

laura, listen to your gut or heart or that little voice in the back of your head.

You don't have to stick with anything. You made a statement that the "second floor was all set, you didn't want to mess with it" .

If the lot doesn't work? Seek another. If you need more space on this lot? Go back to the architect. No CKD can help you without some FIRM idea of what you must have, and you must have the budget ( and room ) for her to get it in there. You're spinning, So go back, first with hubby, and get your financials on record, plan that ANY build will go over by ten to fifteen percent, and in short, yank up the big girl panties. : ) Anything else at this point is wasting the CKD time, your time, and dollars lost to drawings from an arch, when really what you are saying is you want MORE than this space will contain.

You can have anything you want. as long as lot and dollars will align with the wish list.

I am not a fan of tall pullouts for pantry items but with the adjustable shelves I do like the flexibility for unwieldy items, tall items and small appliances that would take up lots of drawer space.

Pull-Out Pantry · More Info

I, too, think an L shaped kitchen would be more useful than the current proposals. I’m not sure that it would be so terrible to have ONE pantry entrance around the corner in order to accommodate the L shaped kitchen.

Here‘s the link to cpartist’s L shaped kitchen, which would be a good jumping off point for your kitchen design;

https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5590582/cpartists-kitchen-finished#n=117

laura, here's the very long thread with cp's final plans and elevations, with links to her other threads through the four years of planning,

https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/4361032/absolute-final-plans-and-elevations-and-build-thread

Just to help you know that you're not alone taking time to work on your plans and achieve the best result.

I came to GardenWeb in late 2009 to read through the Kitchen forum while planning our new house and new kitchen; we thought we were going to start building in the spring of 2010, but my parents died that year several months apart and things got delayed for several years. We built the house ourself, because my husband is a builder, but it took us four years because he was doing paid work for clients and also dealt with some health challenges (my husband had surgery for prostate cancer, his father had a serious stroke and then died, and his mother needed a great deal of support). I used all the extra time to keep reading at GardenWeb and elsewhere, asking questions, and doing research. Our new house is so much better for all the planning, researching, and waiting : ) .

@beckysharp Reinstate SW Unconditionally I appreciate it. I am sometimes don't listen to my own voice enough. That sounds like a really rough experience for you with your family. I hope your husband is in good health now.

I am sometimes don't listen to my own voice enough.

This would be a very good time to start : ) .

That sounds like a really rough experience for you with your family. I hope your husband is in good health now.

Thanks so much : ) . He had a heart attack at the beginning of last year, just as we were finishing up work on the house to move in. Argh. It has definitely been an experience lol.

@beckysharp Reinstate SW Unconditionally. We just never know what life's going to throw at us, do we. I'm sorry to hear about the heart attack, that really stinks. You seem like a very nice and thoughtful person. I am sure you are handling it well.

Thanks, laura. I try, and we have a great family with wonderful hugely helpful kids : ) . I found GardenWeb when I was helping my father go through radiation for his cancer, and it helped keep me sane, plus I learned a lot too. And after they died my husband built me a greenhouse, which has been my therapy in the spring and summer.

My question about the layout with ovens across the kitchen from the cooktop and why I brought it up as a concern...

Do you ever make casseroles? Flan? Crumble with fresh fruit? Soufflé from a roux? Roast beef with gravy from drippings? Stuff you've just cooked to be kept warm in the oven 'til guests are ready to be seated? How do you go from food set up at the cooktop in often goopey condition all the way across the kitchen to put stuff in the oven or vice versa? I don't get why you'd want to do that... I'd be worried about tripping over a kid or a dog and having the whole mess go flying...

Yes. I definitely don’t want to go on a hike to put something in the oven to stay warm etc.

Oh come ON!!!! : ) A hike? To where? I see no advantage to a cook top vs range. You turn around? There's the island. You turn left or right? There's counter top as well. You don't want to post the current kitchen, because it ( your words lol ) "sucks" . But you cook in it, you set out big food buffets in it and you are LIVING in it and it seems nobody has starved. . Of course you want a big improvement, it's a new build! But you are trapped in this house footprint until you change it, and you have a budget. You don't think you can afford a pro range............ but by the time you do a 48 cook top, add double ovens and a microwave? Spell MONEY.

Three feet of depth to this kitchen would get you a lot. Maybe that covered deck needs a push. Nobody can help until YOU are very firm on actual appliances in any scenario.

"A cook top has LITTLE to nothing to do with ovens. Ovens are a put it in there, set timer, walk away appliance."

I totally and humbly disagree with this statement. In our last house, our ovens were on the opposite side of the kitchen than the rangetop. At the time, I saw no issues because I *thought* that the functions of each were totally separate. I was warned on here by the GW gurus back in in 2012/2013 but I thought I knew better ;)

Then DH learned the art of pan searing steaks in a cast iron skillet and finishing in the oven. Imagine running walking across the kitchen with a HOT large heavy cast iron skillet to the oven after the pan searing. Everyone had to clear the path and pray it wasn't dropped en route. I learned my lesson that from now on, my ovens will be closer to the cooktop. When cooking for my immediate family, I rarely transfer from pot to serving dish so I try to put any baked items near the stove to keep it all together which is another reason that having the ovens closer to the stove is more ideal....IMHO :)

@JAN MOYER, Because of this thread, I did start researching appliances more thoroughly. I never would have imagined that appliances would need to be selected at this early stage of design. My KD did talk to me about appliances, but we never went over price in detail.

I was surprised by the cost of the ovens etc as separates. A pro range may be the way I go.

I often use two large (pro sized) sheet pans at separate temps at a time. I still need to figure out if they would fit in the smaller part of many of the pro ranges. I'm thinking not.

Also, maybe I should have maybe said before that I was choosing not to afford a pro range. However, maybe after further analysis of the pros/cons I will want to. I'm new at this, and I'm going to do more research.

@shead I wouldn't want to be more than a few steps from the range to the oven. TY.

We have a Blue Star 48 inch range. The small oven fits a 1/2 sheet pan( 18x13). The large oven fits a full sheet pan (26x18).

I have considered going with the the pro style range for our upcoming remodel but after seeing my friend's in action, I feel like the ovens on those are too low to the ground. The front facing knobs make the ovens have to sit lower. Plus, we are seriously considering an induction cooktop. Sometimes spending a little more for the separate units is worth it for ergonomics.

I MUST be dense! If you PAN SEAR a steak on a pro range, you have an oven directly beneath. If you use the layout where the ovens were in the "baking center" spot, you simply stay in your lane, and move slightly right. If you put them on a wall next to the stair and use a cook top between two windows? Then you set them on a board on an island and transfer safely.

My heavens folks...........are these steaks a nightly meal with kids? My bet is not.

As with all other spaces, you plan for most of the time. You plan for the daily grind. Not flan.

You don't plan for the one full day you make Christmas cookies, or the one or two times you boil a lobster.

You plan for the 21 meals/snacks of every boring week. The OP can't make any great decision until she separates reality from fantasy, real budget from dream budget, and gets to firm appliance selections based on the seven ordinary and boring days of a week.

She won''t post the current kitchen, it "sucks" . But meals have come out of that kitchen! The children are not malnourished. A new range with smooth roll out shelves that hold a catering sheet? Go look inside a Monogram. Best value on the market, with tons of CKD converts to the brand. For the function and beauty, but the function is incredible.

"If you PAN SEAR a steak on a pro range, you have an oven directly beneath."

Yes, if one has a pro range (or any range), your ovens are underneath. That setup works for some and not for others for a variety of reasons. My specific comment was about having a separate rangetop and wall ovens where the wall ovens were in a "baking zone" on the other side of the kitchen, which was really inconvenient a LOT of the time for US.

"are these steaks a nightly meal with kids?" Well, we live on and raise cattle so we have steak a lot more than the typical consumer, At least once a week, including tonight :)

"As with all other spaces, you plan for most of the time. You plan for the daily grind. "

Yep, I totally agree and each of our daily grinds differs from others. My daily grind does not include me wanting to bend over farther than necessary to lift things (lower back and joint issues) so having a separate cooktop and ovens nearby is what is most ergonomic for me. But, there again, each has to design their kitchen for what works best for them, including the OP. I highly suggest she spend a considerable amount of time analyzing her own kitchen habits and design a kitchen based on that instead of worrying so much about symmetry.

And I agree that the GE Monogram range is gorgeous. If I could be converted to a pro gas range it would be a strong contender, especially since a good friend of ours is a GE dealer and could get us a great price :)

Monogram IS a pro gas range and you can also have propane top AND oven. Convert what if I may ask?

I mean if I could be converted from my preference of a separate cooktop and ovens, I'd look at the GE monogram range.

Just random input... I don't USUALLY need two ovens, I am not a baker. However, I do bake a lot of food, just not baked goods. I did a standard gas range and a micro/oven combo. I LOVE it. :)

Oddly enough, I usually use the wall oven, and the range top. The range oven is mostly extra pan storage (for convenience not b/c I don't have enough storage.) When I need them both, they're invaluable!

FWIW

Moyer: "I MUST be dense! ..."

Hmmm....

"....As with all other spaces, you plan for most of the time. You plan for the daily grind. Not flan."

Looks like you mis-read my post. If you'll notice, I listed casseroles, an old "daily grind" standby.

Let me see... taco lasagna, vegetarian lasagna, stew, shepherd's pie, goulash, chicken divan, macaroni and cheese, scalloped potatoes, stuffing, tuna-noodle.... And, as I mentioned, the hot fruit combinations with toppings.

Besides, the OP spends time preparing and serves many people. This is not someone who seems to be remotely limited to "daily grind" cookery.

Flan, for those who've never tried it, is a fancy version of simple baked egg custard, a favorite kids' dessert in my family, topped with fruit.

Any chance you can post the final plan that you built? I just posted on here with my issues and see that you have some similarities. I am trying to decide if I need to push the pantry out or not and I am totally STUCK on the mudroom/laundry and whether I should put in a powder room. I am really looking for advice from people who have been through this - it is both a dream come true and overwhelming!