Can you use a folding table, placed at the left end of the dining table in my illustration, to extend into the other room when you have a large group? I use three folding tables and folding chairs for big family gatherings. My DR table is on casters--it is frequently pulled out and pushed back, depending on how many leaves and seats we need.

I think your range aisle is too narrow, and the corner pantry makes it seem even more closed in. The island corner and fridge is a pinch point--it would be better with just one seat on that side, but there is still very little room for shoulder space and elbow room when passing through.

I think we need some clarification from you - are you a looks first, function second or a function first person?

I'm asking b/c some of your comments seem to indicate that how the Kitchen looks is more important than how it functions.

It is easy to make a functional Kitchen look nice; it's almost impossible to make a nice-looking but dysfunctional Kitchen functional without tearing it out and starting over.

There's no right or wrong answer - just the answer for you.

Oh that is an easy one for me! I am very much a functional person first. I live in the kitchen. I literally spend entire days there on my days off. It must function hence me posting and asking you your opinion is on what was really designed first for looks.

What if we took the overhang off of both sides of the island and just left the four stoles with an overhang on the dining table side? That would essentially add 12+ inches to each isle right, and decrease the total size of the island as well?

though I really did not want to interrupt the beauty of the large, solid stone, Island I'm considering adding a prep sink across from the range top.

We also will consider doing away with the banquette and pulling the table out away from the wall if you feel like a table of that dimensions (10' x 40" wide) will not impede traffic.

how does everyone feel about the functionality with these changes? The pantry I'm still stumped on. I just can't see moving it and still accomplishing what I need to (considerable storage, allowing for the window in it's current location, maintaining the integrity of the mudroom and laundry room entry).

I have a Chippendale style settee with a round table (extendable), and upholstered chairs. I really like the padding and back support, and spend far more time procrastinating in there than I ought. To me, comfort is very functional.

We also will consider doing away with the banquette and pulling the table out away from the wall if you feel like a table of that dimensions (10' x 40" wide) will not impede traffic.

Unfortunately, the space (10' x 14') for the banquette or table & chairs is simply not long enough, although a table will be better than a banquette. We have a 10' long table, but tons of space around it so each person can easily get to their seat. Whether you have a banquette (people scooting on their butts to the middle of the 10' section) or a table (little room to navigate behind the chairs at the ends), it's going to be a tight squeeze. At a minimum, I would pull the table away from the wall far enough to allow walking behind the chairs on the far long side.

Can you extend the dining area into the LR/Family Room (I assume that's to the left), and add another window panel?

If you can extend the bottom wall a corresponding amount, you'd have room for your fourth stool at the island, and the upper cabinet in the corner. The cabinet in the right corner could extend to the counter for appliance storage. With that cabinet, the shallow pantries, and the extra storage in the laundry, you'd have as much, or more, storage space as with the walk-in corner pantry.

ETA, the laundry door swing would need to be changed to open out.

I like the added space and fourth window mama_goose. Here are my concerns with your alternate plan:

windows on either side of the stove seem like a disaster. I stir fry, griddle, MESSY cook A LOT. Grease splatter, tomato sauce, etc would collect on those windows I assume, even with a top notch hood.

where would I store all my kitchen appliances-large mixer (or two), grain mill, pressure cooker, crock pot, electeic skillets, stand up waffle maker, ice cream maker, food sealer, etc? That would have mostly gone in the walkin pantry along with my large storage bins for 25-50# of whole grains and dry beans. Id like to have all this in one area which is what I planned for the pantry-mixer, mill, grains, flour all there with the built in antique flour cabinet I spoke of earlier. I would mix all doughs there in the pantry then transport them to larger main kitchen workspace if needed for rolling or to oven if that's where they are headed.

where would I prep for dinners? I currently cut and such in a 30" x 30" island space to the left of my range and that is too small. Is the idea to still prep at the island?

What would the dimensions roughly be on the new island? I am currently working in a 5' long "baking" area and often fill it so would need at least that without having to move the stools and work on that side. With the range top next to the main sink, why would I need a second sink? I've never had a prep sink and just don't see the point if the main sink is right there.

very much appreciate your comments!

Can we see the rooms around the kitchen? How does it relate to the rest of the house?

You might consider swapping the range and fridge. This would put your food storage (pantry and fridge) on one side of sink and cooking on the other. A prep sink in the island would still be useful. Not sure where the ovens should go in this plan.

Can you incorporate the baker's table into the island? Here's a pic of remodelfla's lovely 'possum belly' table with a soapstone top.

I drew the new cabinets in the laundry deeper than usual, for things like canners and other large items, and storing potatoes, but those cabinets could be standard 12" deep and the counter and cabinets in the kitchen could be deeper--30" base and 15-18" uppers. Maybe that would help with bulky items and storage. But if you have your heart set on the corner pantry, maybe extending the kitchen into the LR/FR will give you space for the island, and dining table, and make keeping the pantry practical.

You would have to extend that wall. There was a thread on a similar kitchen where the discussion revolved around similar placement issues. Unfortunately it didn't come up when I searched just now. Maybe someone else will remember whose kitchen it was.

Extending the wall to flip the fridge and range would put the range too close to the island, IMO, even without seating on the side, and the range and fridge would still be far apart. It would also put the range in a less protected spot--traffic from the LR would pass by on the way to the sink. If the kitchen is extended into the LR, or the seating overhang on the side is eliminated, traffic wouldn't be such an issue.

Another version:

ETA, with the washer on the other side of the wall, it should be easy to add a small sink to the snack area--a second water source would be convenient to keep everyone out of the work aisle.

How long is the baker's table? Are you interested in having it in the kitchen? This plan has optional cabinets above, to store baking supplies:

Here are a couple of ideas to think about. As has been said, the corner pantry really gets in the way, and although you have a big space, having a U layout is limiting your aisles. If you move the pantry up as others have suggested and move the fridge off of the left hand wall, it gives you a lot more options. To make this work, I also switched the laundry door to swing out, but otherwise did not change the laundry entrance at all. I moved the laundry sink off the back wall to have more of a galley layout in the laundry room. In both layouts I moved your island further from the laundry wall to widen that aisle, and stretched the island to make it longer and narrower with 4 seats on the long side and one on the short side. I'm showing 2 options for fridge and range placement. In both, I had to shift the sink so it is not centered on the middle window but lines up with one side or the other. (Actually you could leave it centered in either layout but moving it gives you more breathing room.)

With sink and range on back wall like mama_goose's plan:

With fridge and sink on back wall, range on laundry wall:

This also gives you more room in the aisle between island and table so you can move the table away from the wall and use chairs on the back side. HTH.

thompson_brady, is the pantry actually big enough for all the things you want to store and do in it? Have you carefully measured everything out to ensure it will all fit with enough room for you to move around to access things and do the milling, etc., you plan to do in there? Just curious because it seems like a tight squeeze with all you envision going on in there.

ETA: When I posted I saw atmocat's ideas come up. I like those better. But I'll leave this here anyway. :)

I did some tweaking around. I made the pantry bigger and put the sink and fridge in it. Seems like that would be handy. I changed the door from mudroom to the living space, moved the table, moved the fridge, changed the island. The area I marked window seat could also have storage in it.

This puts all your prep/cook on one side of the kitchen and your clean-up on the other. The fridge is accessible for prep/cook but also for someone who just wants a drink or snack without having to enter into the work zones.

I got carried away remodeling your house tonight. Its just what I do for fun. Please take a look and see if there are any ideas worth considering.

I appreciate that you want your clean up sink under your big window, so I didn't change that in this drawing. If you're able to move the window and sink at all we could probably get a better layout.

One more quick thing... I think you mentioned something about not wanting to see down past the kitchen, but in rearranging the hall to the master suite there's a wall at the end that you could put a pretty wall hanging and maybe a wall washer light; it could be a lovely feature when you didn't close the pocket door.

Oh, and I was trying to make it a quicker trip from the laundry room into your master closet for putting things away.

IMO you have a lot of wasted space in both your master bedroom and your master bathroom. Who doesn't want a spacious master suite? But... you'll be paying for square footage that you don't use, and that square footage could be better put to use in your kitchen and dining area. Just taking two feet from each could give you a two foot longer island, a better positioned pantry, a better kitchen work flow, and more room to navigate around your farm table.

Also, I didn't see a designated office in your floorplan. Where will you be paying bills, keeping other important paperwork, and putting away those things and your computer when you have company? By sliding the laundry room two feet into the master bedroom, you end up with a nice niche between the laundry room and the triple window in the bedroom. Perfect spot for a small desk.

Hello. Such nice plans for so much living makes your post a pleasure to read, Thompson Lady. There are lots of great ideas to consider and points to be addressed. And tradeoffs to be made.

If you really like it, I don't see why you can't have your pantry pretty much as you want it, though -- as long as you do put a prep sink opposite the stove and whatever else is needed for your main work area so you aren't galloping all over the kitchen with every meal. The prep sink alone would "fix" most work layout issues. The refrigerator's a bit away, but mostly just a straight shot down the side of island.

Otherwise, the main issue that must be fixed, as pointed out again and again, really is that too small a space is allocated to your main dining area. Given its tremendous importance, especially to lifestyles like yours, I suggest giving this real priority, taking whatever space from surrounding areas is needed. Especially the kitchen, of course. Giving too much to the kitchen and too little to dining is extremely common! Be ruthless. You need, what, a minimum of 9' depth -- a full 3' for chairs on the window side, 4' table, 2' plus walkway space for chairs on the kitchen side? No less? Preferably more?

You're already considering cutting back the very large island, so a foot or so is gained there. The doorway to the mud room needs to slide down toward the stove, so how about moving the ovens elsewhere? Could they go under the island on the cleanup side, or even toward the other end in the pantry area? You may love wall ovens, but don't you need a gracious and functional dining area your people will love to relax into even more?

If needed, could you scrounge another half foot from the aisle width on the cleanup side of the island? With the cook, prep sink, boiling water, hot grease, etc., mostly over on the stove end, the cleanup side would not need space for a cook + another several people to mill around safely.

BTW, this is not at all an important suggestion, but with that wonderful antique cabinet you're planning for the pantry, might you consider having the pantry open as a little ell off the kitchen so it's partially seen? Have the walls at the ends of the stove and cleanup counters but leave off the diagonal connector and door so that a little mystery space extends off that side of the kitchen? Since most kitchens in new homes are extremely predictable these days, breaking out of the usual box could have a synergistic effect, especially if your home's style were a throwback to the past when odd spaces were so common that they are very strong clues to age now? It'd be more convenient too.

Speaking of, if you do move the mudroom doorway down, etc., while tweaking the surrounding spaces this affects, might the pantry area gain a door into the laundry room? They're both your workrooms and both contain kitchen storage, so the convenience of a circular path, eliminating a very tiresome backing out of both dead-end spaces and walking around, would add up to real comfort of use over the years.

I had another thought, but I see hamamelis is thinking along the same lines. This plan does not address the dining area or master bedroom area, but it gives you the pantry off the kitchen, with the sink and range/cooktop on the same counter (still between the windows). There is no window in the laundry--is that a trade you're willing to make?

ETA, the freezer and double oven could be switched, with a coffee/snack center between the freezer and fridge. And, as hamamelis (and keywest) also suggested, a pocket door could connect the pantry and laundry, or it could be open, with the sink extending a little farther into pantry area.

mama goose: How about a pocket door between the laundry room and pantry area to let light from that window shine through?

I really like atmoscat's #2 plan. One piece of advice I wish I had heeded from my original kitchen designer is this: The most valuable space in the kitchen is the area between the sink and stove. My current house squeezed that area. This place (atmoscat #2) takes the most advantage of clear unobstructed space. You would take items from the fridge, move to the prep between sink and cooktop, easy clean up and then move linearly to the cooktop / oven. And plenty of room to spread out.

It also doesn't put a prep sink in the island (removes the need, actually) and then the island should be able to be god clear unobstructed secondary space for more labor intensive processes like dough rolling or such.

And the pantry design is nice, too - it's flush in the kitchen and doesn't impede flow or stick out. (and the bonus of shorter run for the dryer venting is simply bonus, - as is the extra window you can have at the counter prep area!!!!

A few ideas.

I moved the porch fireplace and the porch entry. The entry from the garage recessed into the garage about 1-1,5'. I'm thinking the mudroom closets/lockers etc can now be at the top part of the Mudroom and on the kitchen/laundry wall you can have kitchen storage.

In the kitchen, I moved the fridge where ovens are (not sure about the length of the wall next to it, you may need to shorten it so fridge door can open more than 90 degrees. I have 21" drawers on 2 sides of the range top, so pantry is a bit shorter (45-46"?). I think even with oven there, you can only have 18" cabs around the 36" range top if you want to have the pantry 5' long.

The island is 4' wide and can be 7'3" or 7'8" long. I have 45" aisle on the sink counter side, 5' or 5'5" on the DR side and 4' in front of the fridge.

keywest, good idea--I was adding the last paragraph (always forget something) while you were posting. The freezer could be moved toward the right, too, and a door installed, in case the thompson_brady bunch wants the pantry closed off.

I really like atmoscat's plans, too, for the great prep spaces. The appliances are still a little spread out, but I'd make that choice, in a heartbeat, for the continuous counter spaces. There's not enough room in the pantries for the baker's table, though, and no place for it in either kitchen plan. Is the baker's table a deal-breaker?

WOW! I am totally impressed with everyones creativity. You have quickly dumped my confidence in our plan down the drain!

I really like mama_goose's open pantry option. But the stove between two windows is REALLY concerning me. Who has one and do you abuse your kitchen with near constant heavy duty cooking? I am afraid the windows would be covered in splatter and grease and soot even with a top end vent.

What is just outside the mud room door? Is that a built-in grill, and then an outdoor fireplace? If it's a grill, I'm not sure that's a safe location for it, in the inside corner like that. If it's something else, then sliding the mud room door into that space will allow you to extend the length of the dining area by two feet. The mud-room doesn't have to become smaller as I think you could make better use of space in the master bathroom, allowing you to slide the master closet over to keep the mud room the same size.

Also, I could be wrong, but I think the door from the garage to the house has to swing into the garage, for better heat/fire resistance or something like that.

I love the look of a range or cooktop between windows, so I post these links fairly often: google search--range between windows

GW discussions--range between windows

ETA, your question reminds me of the discussions about whether white kitchens are more difficult to keep clean. White kitchens get no dirtier than other kitchens--it's just easier to see the dirt, and IMO, easier to clean if you can see it. Same with window glass, or any glass backsplash, as opposed to tile or stainless--the grunge will show, so it's easier to clean. I know window glass looks a lot worse if it's smeared, so if you know that will drive you nuts, it might not be the better plan. ;)

Ok I've read through quite a few of the posts on ranges and windows. I admit it is very nice to look at! I need to measure out the space but those with experience-would there be enough room between those two windows for the size of hood required for my 36" Blue Star? Seems to me there would and possibly some sort of slim cabinet as well, maybe. I plan on casing the hood in reclaimed wood like this

How about this idea? I moved the pantry to the opposite side and added a pocket door to the pantry. This actually enlarged your laundry room a bit. I figure you can store any overflow from the pantry in the laundry room IF needed.

I moved your windows. Not sure if that is a non-starter or not. I turned your island and made it what I think is about a 5' wide island. I didn't have exact measurements so you'd have to double check. I also changed your banquet seating to regular seats for all the reasons stated above. Now you have a nice prep space between sink and cooktop.

The only issue I see with the above is the 90 degree rotation of the island means seated folks stare at the cooktop instead of taking advantage of what was stated to be a pretty nice view. But - it's probably easier to interact with the banquet area, too. I love that you maintained the giant pantry that was important to the OP. This is starting to "feel" right - nice work.

I normally try to abstain from contributing to design layout discussions but, thompson_brady probably wants that awesome reclaimed wood hood to be a feature of the new kitchen. This is a very sloppy cut and paste because I'm time pressed but I basically scooted the master bedroom to the right, making the vanity shorter and filled the empty space with a pantry. I kept benjesbride's new mudroom layout because it's easier to work with right angles than the chamfered walls.

The bathroom and master closet entries would obviously need to be tweaked. And I honestly think window placement and symmetry of the exterior should not take priority over the living space function.

Okay we have combined a lot of y'all's great ideas and come up with this kitchen edit. Still hashing out the banquet issue. Thoughts?

are you interested in modifying the mudroom so you can remove the wall to the right of the back door? I think if that wall was removed you wouldn't need a banquette and could have chairs all around your nice table.

Hard one. We thought about this for awhile but with two rowdy boys and lots of land for them to get filthy on plus a gardening mama and multiple four legged friends, I think we need a contained (and hidden) entry from the back yard which is where that door goes. Otherwise I see muddy boots, bags, ropes, hats, and God knows what else all over my dining and kitchen area.

I think your new plan is much improved. One comment is that if you are going to shorten the wall on the left side of the kitchen, there is really no point in having the cabinets turn the corner. Corner cabs are harder to access, so it doesn't really give you any more storage (and you don't really need it anyway.) Just end the sink cabinet run at the wall. (You can either keep the stub wall or not as you prefer.)

What is the width of the island now? It still looks too wide to reach the middle.

Considering your need to manage outdoor stuff in a proper mudroom, maybe you could rearrange the three doorways--backdoor, stair, garage. I put the garage door on the other wall which might help avoid bottlenecks when the whole family comes in through the garage.

This allows the back door to share the hall with the stair instead. I could make for a nice, proper dining room...

eta- you couldnt have a pocket door as labeled in the drawing. i forgot to delete it after las suggestion

I don't think anyone has mentioned this -- have you considered a second dishwasher? With as much cooking as you do and as much people as you feed, I'm sure you'll make good use of it.

I'm not a fan of slanted/diagonal/chamfered walls. benjesbride's plan (and others before) gives you the following benefits:

- a larger, square mudroom, nicely aligned with laundry room

- enough room for your larger table, chairs all around, and room to get by

- doors and doorways and walls at "proper" 90 degree angles

I still think you can rearrange your master bathroom and closet to give you even more room in the mud room (perhaps benches and storage on *both* sides), and to help with the layout of the three doors to the garage, stairs and back patio.

i would also have the door to the master suite open into a small hall, from which there are separate doors to the master bed, bath and closet.

The placement of the door to the back patio isn't ideal, but it gives you the space around the table which I think is more important. Would like to see the plan showing the full garage and back patio, and to know if there is any flexibility to shift them a little bit...

And if you pull the table away from the wall of windows, I wonder if putting a large glass slider on that wall makes sense?

IMO the hallway behind the great room fireplace is wasted space. I guess it could be considered a cool feature, creating a kids and guest "wing", and providing a buffer from any noise in the main house. But you could apply that square footage elsewhere, eg larger bedrooms, larger kitchen/dining, larger garage, etc... Just put a door where the "computer nook" currently is and then you don't *need* that hallway. Closets could be repositioned behind the fireplace to provide the same noise buffer. Just an idea.

Another question about the overall layout - which bathroom do you plan for guests to use? It seems like you might want to have a powder room in the back entry/mudroom area.

Again great questions and suggestions! Wish we would have consulted you all earlier in this process!

Guests will use the hall bath just off the back porch. That will be an unoccupied space for at least the near future so will stay presentable. This is why we put a exterior door there and part of the reason the hall extists-to give guest access to that bath.

We moved the bedrooms, baths, and closets a million times trying to accomplish the following: all beds with good sized closets, jack and Jill bath bt the kids rooms, guest/MIL suite with hall access to bath, close exit to back of house from bedrooms. We are not fans of hall space either but just could not come up with an option that didn't include one and met all the above criteria. Would LOVE to have that sq FT elsewhere as we are pushing our "limit" on size.

Benefitting from this thread, we are essentially redesigning the entire plan lol! So keep the ideas coming! Here is the entire plan showing the back porch area as keywest requested:

-eliminating banquette possibly which would require reconfiguring mud entry from back porch

-better home management area (computer nook/office space) possibly in mud area, not enclosed space just a tad but bigger then what is currently drawn

-ensuring island size is appropriate

I am sure there is more...

Can you share an elevation drawing - what this house will look like from the front? And from the rear?

Is the angled hallway to the master bedroom a non-negotiable design element?

The non 90 degree angles seem like quite an inefficient use of space. I've seen them in homes with angled garages because it's rather required, but I'm not sure why one would choose an angled hall.

My first thought when looking at the overall plan is do you really want to walk through the mudroom to get to the master. I hate having to walk through the mudroom to get to the laundry in my current house and I don't do that nearly as often as going to the master. Our mudroom is messy and dirty on the floor, which is why we have a mudroom, but if I could re-arrange things now I would make sure the mudroom is a side area I don't have to walk through unless I'm going to the garage or outside.

benjisbrides change to the mudroom and master appeals to me much more and it seems like you could then have more freedom in the table and kitchen areas as well and no need to get messy feet when walking through.

Agree with lyfia. I wouldn't want to have to walk through my kitchen and mudroom to go to my master bedroom. It would make me feel like I don't belong in my own home or like I was the housekeeper, since 100 years ago, that's where the cook and/or housekeeper's room was.

I would definitely encourage you to rethink the mudroom and possibly the laundry room. As it is currently drawn, your mudroom is a hallway. I think it needs more storage and sitting space. And it would be nice if it was tucked away more. Right now, you will be walking through the mess to get to your bedroom.

x-posted :)

Maybe it'd help to relabel that space as a back hall or entry, rather than "mud" room. After all, right off it is a closed-off laundry room. Many old homes have back entries that are far more charming and inviting than their front ones, and this one not only performs its "mud" functions but also acts as a very important transitional space to create distance between the active areas and the master suite. It also has a special relationship to the back garden, which can be played up. And kids grow up. Some day, who knows -- it might hold a planning desk for some yet-unknown hobby, with a pretty view out the back, or display a prized collection of family photographs.

UPDATE!!!

We've requested some changes. Still not 100% though. The dining feels awkward to me. Seems like way too much space. Thoughts?

Considering moving the double wall ovens to the pantry short wall where there are cabinets now. 60-75% of my oven use is bread, pastries, cookies and the like so seems to make sense to locate it near the baking center. Also would allow us to center the fridge with pantry cabinets all around.