Bradarni There several reasons I give them these hormones: 1) I have an endless supply of them 2) If Ahnold, our guvernator, got to be Mr Universe 6 times and fearless leader of our state twice, on the back of massive amounts of steroids, these powerful hormones may do some good. 3) Some of our senior members, who have been growing orchids longer than they have been alive, think it's a good idea. 4) Yours is the first intelligent comment I have had about the practice. If you are certain they do no good I'll stop as I have zero evidence it's beneficial. I don't think it's doing any harm either so it's similar to some of the Vitamins we spend billions of dollars on, they make for expensive urine, my OCs would make expensive run-off if I had to pay for them. Since our government subsidized Pharmaceuticals are paying for them I have no problem with expensive run-off. Seriously, as I said I have never had an intelligent Nay or Yea on the subject until your post. I am sure I do many things that are redundant this probably being one of them. If you think plants are unable to benefit from the mammalian hormones I will stop using them and add them to the drinking water of my 11 year old grand daughter instead, she is beginning to take shape much to the horror of her father. Thanks for the info. On a different subject, I am amazed at how many people believe in 'stuffing long roots back into whatever'. To me long roots like that are a sign of a healthy plant and I encourage it. I remember a heavily rooted Phaeli, which when it got unpotted, had not a single healthy root inside its pot. They were all outside. There is a message there. My Vandas have a long beard of roots and I like it that way. I don't think anyone has argued that adding the Spanish Moss will do anything other than to allow the roots to stay wet a little longer. With the same amount of watering this should lead to a benefit or one could water a little less often. Nick

cjrosaphile, I was looking at OOTN just yesterday--I've been planning to shovel prune it, but of course now it's covered with buds that look like they might open. I'm trying to decide if I should give it just one more year. I hate it when they turn beautiful just when you're ready to give them the axe! If yours looks this bad too, maybe they just don't like the PNW & I should go ahead and make room for someone else. I gave Golden Buddha away, and I haven't been sorry at all. Looking at the pictures on HMF, it looks like it's just an orange rose. There's a photo of a 4-year-old mature plant---lots of blooms, but plain and orange. If that's what you're looking for, great, but it didn't work for me. I am loving Louisa Stone. She was just planted this spring, so she's not even established. She still has blooms--a little haggard looking since she has gotten practically no water in the past 2 months of record high temperatures, but the plant looks healthy and shows no sign of disease. It'll be interesting to see how she gets thru the winter. I've put in a couple other Harkness roses (Jacqueline DuPre & International Herald Tribune) and have more on order--Harkness looks like a breeder whose roses do well in my yard. I have a bunch more roses coming in the next couple of weeks (had to hit that Ashdown final sale), so anybody that's borderline might get the axe when I find out just how much I've over-bought for the space I have! Another reason to buy more roses--it pushes you to get rid of those that don't really work. Maybe I should get just a couple more...

Hi Nancy, I use the Control Wizard, Soil pH and Moisture Meter. It works good, but it does have to be cleaned before using, so one would not work long if left in the ground. Plus, I think too expensive to have many of them. Got mine through Amazon. True crown-rot is when the crown rots. The foliage turns yellow and quickly falls over as the crown turns to mush. The root system stays firm and looks healthy. Typically you get an oniony smell from the rotting crown. There's also a bacterial rot that affects both roots and crown. It usually starts in injured roots in poorly established plants. The whole plant turns brown and disappears. There's no single thing that causes crown-rot and the causes are widely argued. We down here in the gulf coast seem to experience it more often than other regions. From my experience, I quit planting in open beds end of April. After It gets hot, middle of May - first of June, I don't water heavily. I prefer to water lightly regularly than soak the soil occasionally. I think soil aeration is very important. Watering heavily allows the water to transmit heat to the root zone and allows pathogens easy access to the plants. The main thing is to keep the plants as cool as possible with good air circulation. A mature plant's leaves shades its root area. Small divisions alone in the sun are in jeopardy. Plant in some shade or pot the plants up and keep them in the shade. Wait until it cools in the fall to plant. Pat Stamile authored an article in the Daylily Journal a couple of years ago that informed us about K-Phite and other (Agri-fos) phosphite solutions that were effective against water molds. They also seem to help prevent or treat crown-rot. They aren't 100% effective, but do help I think. Sorry to be negative, but the feeling is, this year is shaping up to be a very bad year for crown-rot, especially if we get a tropical storm after it gets really hot. Hope this helps some, Ed

Thanks. sorry long. Last long post. Hope you like talking about ground covers. This isn't sand by the way. I think pachysandra, vinca minor, and English ivy are by far cheaper and easier to get as plugs vs the ones suggested but I have to call around if that option is perused by the homeowner after we talk. I've seen unmaintained pachysandra in NJ under maples and it wasn't bad. Saplings can be cut/pulled when reach about a foot tall. But I read others say they get thousands of saplings and that preen or corn meal gluten pre-emergent would be needed, neither of which is an option for this house. They only want organic but don't want to spend on corn meal gluten every year which can get pricy. But anyway, in full sun like we're talking, I read pachysandra will grow poorly or die if the soil conditions etc aren't great and without watering or fertilizer and mulch (you can mulch it at first but it will turn to soil in a few years but then you can sprinkle more mulch or bagged mulched grass/leave mowings etc after to keep the moisture in and not need to water as often). the same full sun situation goes for English ivy but I read it might do a bit better in full sun than pachysandra. I don't know the USDA zones those people are in though who claim this, could be hotter there and more likely to do poorly. With poor growth in full sun, weeds can take over easier, and it won't recuperate as easy from winter stress especially with lots of full un-mulched leaves falling into it which will happen at this house. I read Vinca aka vinca minor, aka vinca bowels aka periwinkle does good in full sun (and dense shade), and it's cheap. But I read it spreads like crazy underground and don't want it to take over the existing shrubs in front of the house or the neighbors' lawns. It's an invasive problem in the woods and stuff in parts of the country becoming a mono crop type problem. Although here's a picture of it next to grass and I see none in the grass but maybe they are killing it selectively with a broadleaf-only killer. http://www.onlineplantguide.com/Plant-Details/2771/ Pachysandra also spreads underground but I don't think I've ever seen it take over or even show up in a bordering lawn where no herbicides were used. This thread seems really incorrect: http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1917442/my-neighbor-planted-vinca-minor Basically someone was worried their neighbor's new vinca minor lawn would take over their perennials and shrub yard. I read vinca minor is a rhizome but Someone replied "Since vinca spreads by rooting along its stems, just pull up the plants that venture outside the bounds. It is far easier to deal with than aggressive groundcovers that spread by rhizomes or underground stolons like ivy, hypericum, gallium or lamiastrum". And they said just a stout river rock border would keep it contained, and that it doesn't self seed, which I'm not sure if it does or not. don't want thousands of these seeds blowing on the neighbors' laws and growing. I'm reading a lot of articles/people say you need roundup or lots of vinegar and digging etc to contain vinca. This homeowner doesn't want to use roundup or any chems but they are okay with vinegar. I wonder if they just need maybe a few $3 gallons of vinegar each year and a sprayer to contain about 300 feet of vinca minor edges. I read vinca is really tough though even against roundups. Home Guides has an article saying you can just use 3" landscaper plastic edging and it will stay contained. People on forums said it will grow up and over no mater how high the border is but said they just mow it back and it stays contained. Maybe just an electric weedwacker can be used to scalp the edges once a month by the homeowner. This person says they maintain the edges simply by mowing and it looks great. http://tallcloverfarm.com/1398/periwinkle-vinca-major-covers-a-lot-of-ground With grass, if someone doesn't want to water, I still suggest to water it at least a full year (with an inch all at once, once per week, rain included) because that will grow deep roots and make it less likely to get wiped out in a drought once they stop watering. But if it still dies it doesn't take much to slice seed grass again for decent results (won't look like they spent thousands on sod or did follow up slice seedings and aerations every couple years with just one slice seeding but it will be decent). I would give the same watering recommendation for groundcover, preferably more than a full year until the watering stops and also to water some in mid summer if hasn't rained. I think the homeowner's goal is equally: -to be environmental and not need water or fertilizer once established and not have mow or pay for mowing or need much maintenance, especially with machines/mowing - them just hand pulling/pruning once or twice a year is okay. -have a cool looking yard The back yard and side also they wanted groundcover, and adds like 5X more to the Sq footage, so I think either way they will have to mow because I doubt they'll splurge for doing the whole yard as groundcover (all but the front main area we've been discussing is shady though so pachysandra would do fine for the rest). Maybe I'll till the front this year, put 3" fresh free woodchips, plant vica and then next year or the one after, I'll till the back and sides and propagate the same vinca. they have a wooded area in the back so they have to make sure it doesn't take over the whole thing back there also. A good point: Meaning that in the back where there's woods, they should leave a good ten feet as lawn how it is now and prune it back there to not let it get into the wooded area "You mention that mowing seems to keep them controlled; I believe that to be true. It is when they are established next to, or in a woodland that they go crazy, choking out native plants of all sizes. I would humbly suggest that they should be used only in areas where their growth can be limited by mowing on all sides or contained by features such as pavement areas" http://mikesbackyardnursery.com/2014/06/vinca-flower/ I think the only thing left I have to research is if it can get all weedy if not re-mulched every few years. It can I read but I have to see if there are certain situations that make this more prone to happening - I think a lot of these people might have just not used enough mulch to start while the vinca was establishing and ended up with dense patches or weeds. Weeds would be fine, just don't want the weeds to actually take over the vinca, like grow taller than it and look like 1.5 foot of weeds. so many people are like snobs against vinca. looks good to me http://www.lodi.watersavingplants.com/GardenWorks/Photos/396.jpg and is a win win for no watering or mowing or chems etc any input thanks again