It must be a SoCal problem that prevents you from growing the vanda family with no media in the basket. I have seven different vanda family all growing happily with lava rock in their baskets. When a root escapes and it gets long enough, it is inserted back into the basket.

It reduces the amount of time, the amount of water needed and the multiple times a day needed to grow and bloom this family in the g/h in zone 6. If they are grown inside of a home, it is even more important to use something to keep the roots from drying out as the heat cycles off and on.

Have fun draping you Spanish moss around, please share pics with us.

Brooke

Well, I guess it is a Louisiana problem as well...most of my vandas aren't even in baskets, but wired to a hook. While our humidity is generally quite buoyant, I do have to hose on the days it doesn't rain in the hottest part of the year (say March through November?).
I do not think vandas are happy in a pot or a basket with 'stuff' in it. When my roots get too long, I cut them off (warm seasons only). And they grow more. Most of the really good, cooperative ones bloom 4 - 6 times a year.
I think a nice side order of Spanish moss would make them look *fierce*!!!
Cheers - Nancy

I do think I would like the look of the spanish moss growing with the vanda roots. Although, I have never heard of this before now. It does dry quickly. I think I may try it on one or two just to see the difference, but as I have learned from past mistakes, what works for one person may be a total failure for others. I would like to see if it helps, hurts(by taking away nutrients the vanda roots need), or actually provides more nutrients for the vandas. Definitely an experiment I would try.

"they REFUSE to grow in a pot full of bark or other media"

No they don't. You can elect to grow them with the long roots dangling and the constant spraying to water and fertilize them but refuse? No, they do quite well with a lot less work if you do contain them. It isn't for everyone but refuse, no they are quite happy.

You are eliminating a technique that might make it feasible for someone not willing to do the extra work or who can't be tied to multiple daily waterings.

Brooke

Brooke, since you are growing in a GH, you do not face the kind of problems that we outdoor growers do during our frequent monsoon seasons - 3-4" of rain per day for sometimes 3 months in a row, with periods of blazing sun and heat in between. I don't know about orchidnick, but I can count on my fingers only the number of orchids I have in pots, out of well over 100 plants. Constant soaking wetness for weeks on end pretty much ends in tragedy for potted orchids. While vandas relish a lot of water, I do not think they would do well in any kind of medium for me here; I suspect that each year my vanda 'collection' would decrease by 50%. I tried a few in coconut chunks a few years ago, and the results were pretty awful. That's why I don't grow cattleyas, most of them do best in a pot, except outdoors in the deep south, where they liquefy in the most disgusting way.
So we in the most torrid corner of heaven adapt.
Cheers - Nancy (11 vandas in bloom, and none of 'em in a basket of 'stuff')

Have a number at the nursery growing this way. The only thing is, T. usenoides tends to die underneath. I try to pull that crap out, it tend to rot away when underneath a couple good layers of the live stuff.

We actually have it draped on the non sun receiving walls as a humidity booster too.

I think it is beneficial but i am living in a non "Vanda" paradise.

On a last chance are a couple of plants of Ascda. Prima Belle, must of had them for at least 12 years and they just exist, never look happy and of course have never flowered. They now are in empty pots with Spanish Moss.

Contrast that with Vasco. Five Friendships x Ascda. Peggy Foo. small seedling in mix.Purchased as cool tolerant. Perhaps it just should be called tolerant because it is in bloom . Yeah!

That rule of less and more arid mix as you go towards the tropics applies.

Nancy I didn't say it was for everyone but it is an option for some growers in some climates. Nick grows in SoCal a very hot arid area without your months of monsoons.

It isn't right for you but it might be right for someone who doesn't live in Louisiana.

Congratulations on your eleven vandas in bloom not in 'stuff'. I have one blooming, three just finished blooming, one is a seedling to young to bloom and the remaining three will bloom shortly - all planted in 'stuff'.

Brooke

There seems to be support for the 'Potted Option', maybe a filibuster can be avoided. Orchids will grow any where, any how. I have a catt growing in a shoe and a kingi in a pot of water. Submerged to its root crown. They adapt and survive. I grow these for the purpose of demonstration.

It appears general consensus that Vandas like to have their roots dangling free in the breeze. Our speaker has an extensive collection and said that he never succeeded in keeping a Vanda happy in a pot full of stuff. He adds the Spanish moss as he believes it allows the roots to stay wet longer which makes sense.

Brooke writes:

'growing happily with lava rock in their baskets. When a root escapes and it gets long enough, it is inserted back into the basket.'

His comment, and I fully concur, is that if a plant is sending roots out of the pot it's screaming for help. 'Get me out of here'. Stuffing the roots back in the pot it's trying to escape from is not the answer. Since it does not want to die it will tolerate the treatment but seems to be asking for the opposite. There are some smaller vandaceous plants whose roots are not adventuresome and they prefer to be in a ball of Sphagnum moss. They would obviously do well potted.

On the work ethics of a ball of Spanish moss, I concur that under the surface of 2" or so of healthy plant there exists a dead zone. There is only healthy useful moss on the surface. One therefor should not let the mass of SM get too big. I periodically pull it down, separate the dead from the living plantlets and let it start all over again.

I don't think there would be any competition for nutrients between the Bromeliad and the Orchid as neither are parasites and both benefit from the nutrient that is sprayed on them. Neither is invasive on the other's territory.

SM grows like a weed in Florida and Lousiana but does not grow well in California. Much too arid for it's taste. Since my collection is 95% plus mounted which gets watered frequently, it honors me by growing with enthusiasm. Other members of our society cannot grow it, as watering it once a week won't do it.

I inoculated the root balls of all of my Vandas and a few others today and will watch it over the next year or so to see how it does. Going to be hard to tell as the plants are growing well and blooming with the current management, now a new wrinkle is added. Unless they go downhill, a year from now they will still be growing and blooming well so it's going to be a totally subjective decision whether this does any good.

I firmly believe in throwing as much Dodo on the wall as is available, some will stick and do good. I'm really just vigilant about doing harm. I have been feeding them birth control pills for years, do these powerful hormones do any good? Who knows, they look healthy so its obviously not harming them. This is probably going to be the same way where I expect them to do well with SM and also do well without, provided they get good care.

I hear rumors that SM is very popular in San Francisco, maybe some one from up there has a comment.

Nick

Okay, Nick, I'll bite - where the heck do you get birth control pills to feed your orchids?
Saaaaay - do you have 20 children?
Our local orchid society has almost completely gone over to potting cymbidiums in 100% fresh horse poop, speaking of throwing it at the wall.
Cheers - Nancy

I can't wait to see how our vandas look in a year. That was why I did only a couple to see the difference.

My daughter is a family physician and can get all the samples I need. I usually add a month worth every 2 weeks to the mix. Others in our society also do this.

I also tried the Horse manure trick, which has been extensively written about on this forum. It works real well, definitely with Cymbidiums. My only complaint and the reason I stopped using it, is that it disappears. After 1/2 year the only thing left in your pot is undigested straw, every thing else has washed out. Since I hate to repot, this is obviously not the way to go. I still have a garbage can full of the stuff in my growing area and add it now and then on top of the very few plants I have left in pots, mostly the Cymbidiums. It also makes excellent tea, that I do on a regular basis and spray it on everything. Watch out for yellow rain at my place.

20 children? You got to be kidding, I stopped after 6 although I was really just getting warmed up and could have easily had 20 or more if it were not for that outdated monogamy concept.

Nick

Hi
I grow Vandas,Catts ,Cane dend, epicatts using this method.Using several different supports as well as trees for the main support.
Since you mentioned Vandas will describe that setup .Rather new as the hurricanes as well as the state ripping out my citrus completely devasted my grow area
Using two conjoined queen palms as the main support A trough at the base. I like to call it a "hedge" but as growth matures it's becoming more circular.
This grouping contain 5 types of vandas,4 epidendrums,3 types of Tilandsia(spanish moss) and 3 types epicactus.
I like to call this a "hedge' but as it matures is becoming quite circular.
It is less than 3 years old but all the plants were flowering size when started so I am getting some flowering
and a need to prune lol. Very pleased with the growth of everything BUT the weather has been very amendable (so far)
I have a contraption I call a GH that can be used for extreme weather but so far has not been necessary.
Also have a shade grouping using a Carambola as the main support.
It's also very young and way too early to start bragging
but all the orchids flowered right on cue. had I another choice wouldn't have used the carombola.Requires way too much upkeep.
Mostly I have MUCH better luck growing "au natural"
but I LOVE this method. Good luck with yours.
gary

Silly me, I thought when the vandas continued to elongate their roots it was a good thing.

Brooke

Brooke, I think that also. I moved all the "Vandas" from my wet greenhouse to the dryer one because they were getting so much water that they were not growing much root. Lots of water was always available during the growing season and they didn't need much to get the water they wanted. The result was that they suffered during the winter when there is less water.

In the dryer greenhouse there were great, long roots and they stored enough water in the velamen. The plants I moved are doing much better while the plants already there continue to bloom.

My vandas for years refuse to grow in any sort of pot with any stuff
in it. It's a very common Southern California problem. And if it's a basket it must be watered 100 times a day. And this is quite factual. For endless number of people. It's not IMPOSSIBLE but sure seems like it for most of us. It's too easy to say 'that's not true'.

And I have tried endless number of ways to get them to
thrive - glass vases, clay pots with layer of moss on top, basket with treefern chunks. I gave up. My cattleyas can handle the freezing cold as well as the 0% humidity perfectly. I'm sticking with those.

Richard the basket/lava rock combo lets the plant dry at a slower rate and they will be dry by night. In hot weather it eliminates the need to drench the roots multiple times a day.

I'm sorry if people don't like the idea but it works for me as well as other people. I am not the first person to grow a vanda in lava rock and I did not invent this method. I stole the idea from the vendor I bought my Vanda tricolor from potted in an 8" clay pot - full of lava rock. After it bloomed, I was going to put it in a basket but when I broke the clay pot to remove it, I found tons of big fat beautiful roots.

I don't mind watering something once a day but I will not water anything multiple times a day.................except for my five mounted masdies.

Brooke

Brooke what is your average humidity? I haven't tried basket with lava rock. But as my humidity on a good day is about 10% I wonder if it would dry out just as fast as ever. What type of basket do you use? Do you have any pictures? Thank you!

I've only grown orchids for a couple of years but have never tried a Vanda because of only being able to grow inside my house under lights or windowsills plus a short outdoor summer season. The inside natural humidity ranges from 60-70% year round but having to spray a large hanging orchid daily in my home would really limit where it could hang so this would not destroy things, plus it could only hang so high if I had to move it daily to spray, this means I can't meet its light requirements in my home. Definately a hassle. I might just try one in a pot with lava rock since it would be easier for me to take care of and I'd even be able to place it in a spot with correct light too. Maybe it would work :) Thanks for the idea!

Localoca I don't have any pictures showing only the baskets but I did find a couple with a partial basket shown. This first one is Asco. miniatum which was a previously bloomed plant in a 4" vanda basket. After having it two years and no blooms I decided I wasn't giving it enough water so soaked the roots and wound it into a 6" vanda basket with landscape fabric in the bottom. I then deposited pieces of lava rock around the roots.

{{gwi:148724}}

This second picture is Asco. ampullaceum which is in a 6" wood basket.

{{gwi:202343}}

This is Renanthera Singaporeans 'Scarlet'. This is not my plant but one I am babysitting for a friend. He could not get it to bloom where he had it in his g/h plus summers outside, watered once a day, maybe. He let me put it in the basket/lava rock combo and it is blooming a second time in less than six months. The picture is from the first bloom time.

{{gwi:189365}}

Again, landscape fabric in the bottom to keep the roots from growing out of the bottom. When a root escapes from the sides, when long enough I put them back into the sides of the basket. You can see some of the lava rock visible in the pictures.

My humidity is all over the place depending on the season. Yesterday it was sunny, both vent fans were running and the humidity was under 20%. Today is misty and cloudy and the humidity is 80% - tonight it will be 90%+. In the summer even with the additional humidity from the cooler wall, I still have to run misters under the tables part of the time.

Angeleyedcat I hope you can adapt the idea to your growing conditions.

Brooke

This year we unfortunately had three deaths in the family, and lots of flower arrangements were sent to the house and funeral. I therefore decided to string up some Spanish moss and some floral moss (the green kind used as filler) between all the vadnas and ascdrs. The results were impressive even with substantial rainfall this summer, the roots are larger, longer, and the plant bloomed more profuse with less than usual care (since I was at hospitals and funeral homes all summer and didnt water like I do).

Now that they are indoors - they are a little more resistant to drying, so I think I will keep the moss - plus,I think it's growing ansd looks cool - I have been contemplating adding some Tillandsias for the added look, but haven't got around to it yet.

Nick - I do not doubt your success - but why the heLL would you give vandas and any plant birth control bills? They are combinations of estrogen and progesterone and as far as I can remember, plants wouldn't have those receptors to take the drug up anyway, and I am almost positive they cannot convert estrogen into a plant hormone, even if all hormones are cholesterol backbones (sorry I work in academic medicine and do drug research and development, this bothers me). I know plants make phyoestrogens, but can they metabolize mammalian estrogens?..if so that's creepy.

If you are "Vanda" challenged avoid the large dinner plate ones and try Vase Culture, Spanish Moss or Lava rock OR

Try some "Vandas" that are more tolerant of abuse.
Neofinetia Intergenerics
Vascostylis hybrids
There must be lots of them
Papillionanthe vandarum. Tough species orchid
{{gwi:202345}}

Sartylis Blue Knob. Sarcochilus intergeneric
{{gwi:202347}}
Sorry out of time, more later

Another trick is putting them in a large clay pot with nothing but tree fern fiber. Keeps the humidity up but is airy. I can get away with watering every third day.

Bradarni

There several reasons I give them these hormones:

1) I have an endless supply of them

2) If Ahnold, our guvernator, got to be Mr Universe 6 times and fearless leader of our state twice, on the back of massive amounts of steroids, these powerful hormones may do some good.

3) Some of our senior members, who have been growing orchids longer than they have been alive, think it's a good idea.

4) Yours is the first intelligent comment I have had about the practice. If you are certain they do no good I'll stop as I have zero evidence it's beneficial. I don't think it's doing any harm either so it's similar to some of the Vitamins we spend billions of dollars on, they make for expensive urine, my OCs would make expensive run-off if I had to pay for them. Since our government subsidized Pharmaceuticals are paying for them I have no problem with expensive run-off.

Seriously, as I said I have never had an intelligent Nay or Yea on the subject until your post. I am sure I do many things that are redundant this probably being one of them. If you think plants are unable to benefit from the mammalian hormones I will stop using them and add them to the drinking water of my 11 year old grand daughter instead, she is beginning to take shape much to the horror of her father.

Thanks for the info.

On a different subject, I am amazed at how many people believe in 'stuffing long roots back into whatever'. To me long roots like that are a sign of a healthy plant and I encourage it. I remember a heavily rooted Phaeli, which when it got unpotted, had not a single healthy root inside its pot. They were all outside. There is a message there.

My Vandas have a long beard of roots and I like it that way. I don't think anyone has argued that adding the Spanish Moss will do anything other than to allow the roots to stay wet a little longer. With the same amount of watering this should lead to a benefit or one could water a little less often.

Nick

To each his own Nick and if you have no objection to watering multiple times a day, using massive amounts of water when you elect to grow in a desert, go for it. I use rain water and have a somewhat limited amount when it doesn't rain when I need it. My RO system only makes 30 gallons a day which wastes 60 gallons in the process. I use more than 30 gallons almost every day.

If you are referring to a phalaenopsis living on aerial roots without any roots inside the pot, you over watered it and killed the roots in the media. I have many phals mounted with dangling roots but they only get watered once a day. It is an old wives tale aerial roots avoid a pot with bad media. Roots don't have a brain or eyes.

Roots growing long are a sign of a healthy growing orchid whether they hang free or if they get 'stuffed into the pot. I prefer to 'stuff my vanda roots in a basket with lava rock. You grow yours and I'll grow mine but I will also feel free to offer an alternative method to anyone who hesitates to be tied to multiple waterings per day and doesn't live in an area where they can grow outside.

Brooke

No argument there Brooke, to each his own. I'm truly amazed how many people grow Vandas in pots or baskets with stuff in it. If you go back to my initial post it will be evident that I was totally convinced that the only way to grow Vandas is without media. I just got 3 Vandas from Kawamoto and even though he grows in Vanda heaven he had them in baskets full of bark. I was amazed.

You live and learn.

Nick

Exposed roots are able to photosynthesize at least. I have a giant Aerangis cryptodon filling an eight inch basket. I try to redirect roots back into the thin layer of sphagnum at the bottom to assist the moisture. I also have usenoides draping off the basket too.

To each their own, and no point to argue back and worth. What works for you, stick by it!

I prefer to grow my vandaceous mounted on either treefern slabs or driftwood, with wonderful results. Vandaceous I grow this way seem to love burrowing their roots in the treefern or in driftwood crevices.

I grow a number of vandaceous in big clay pots or baskets with some loose chunks of medium in it - treefern chunks, big pieces of charcoal and lava rock...I cant water every morning, so this set up works for me! {{gwi:202348}}From Orchids April 2008

A luscious collection, Olya! I love your photos! Beautiful blooms, all of them!

I like the idea of wrapping various mosses around vanda roots - got the idea from my cousin in CA). Also, as an added measure, Spanish moss, tillandsias, etc. are pretty sensitive to accumulated salts; so for me, if they are doing ok, then I assume the orchid is ok.

Now,kind of off topic, but maybe intersting nonetheless. Nick mentioned that some of his orchids were "on the pill" in an above post, and since then I spent a few days looking for some informaiton online and dear I say it, in books.

I found out that phytoestrogens (plant-produced hormones)like soy have structural similarity to mammalian estrogen, and our bodies think it is estrogen - hence the sometimes reported side efects to soy milk, etc. While I found information on plant hormones affecting us, I couldn't find information on our hormones affecting plants. It got me thinking though, over the summer, I noticed a few roots on my vanda were growing from the stem, and were nice and plump, but short. For the heck of it, I rubbed some rooting hormone on it and they grew pretty quickly, in a matter of a week. To me, that is the only hormone prep that would be sufficient for plants; that, and gibberelic acid to make more shoots on rhodies - but whatever.

Nick, I know you were joking, but if you have a well on your property, or groundwater nearby, please consider axing the pills for your plants. I seriously think it has no effect whatsoever. I read a toxicology study a few years ago that showed measurable amounts of fluoxetine (Prozac), estrogen, and acetominophen (tylenol) in the drinking water of several Midwestern cities fed by the Great Lakes. Of course, we all contribute to it every time we pee; but what can you do?

Thanks for reading, just trying to make everyone aware and I don't mean to single you out Nick.

Thank you Bradarmi, I appreciate the hormonal input. Don't worry, the unused pills will go to deserving needy women in my daughter's practice.

I know that Ahnuld is no longer using anabolic steroids, wonder what he did with his stash. Maybe I can get hold of that and feed it to the plants.

Thanks everybody, this was one of the few threads that fundamentally changed a conception I had. Prior to this I was completely convinced that Vandas grew best in situations where their roots were totally free. Our speaker has the same impression stating that he never successfully grew them in 'stuff'. Apparently this is not the case.

Nick

I LOVE this idea and am going out this morning to pluck moss. I caretake my elderly father and there are times/days/weeks when every single bit of my strength and energy and time are spent there and the orchids get neglected. This would be perfect for those times I just can't get out there to water. Wish I had known a few months ago, dad got sick, orchids got neglected and many died.
Lori