I agree with your thoughts, jmm1837, and maybe there's an aspect of people being human. There's something about human nature....we see similar scenarios play out over and over and over and over again on Houzz (and yet I can't look away). And I'll admit to being surprised by it all the time (not learning on my part, apparently...)

It happens in many fields. I do print design, and -- there grew up an entire industry of templates, do-it-yourself stuff (2D equivalent of a tract home perhaps) -- I wonder how many architect and/or designer business cards, promotional collateral, websites, etc. could better represent their owners if they consulted a graphic design specialist? One would think those folks are better positioned to recognize quality in other forms of design....or, because they have related experience, they too think they can DIY..... thankfully visual design isn't going to kill anyone, but it must be part of human nature to believe one can do something themselves....

ETA -- I've worked with folks in design fields, and find they often stick to their print "vision" which is the equivalent of wood valances over kitchen sinks...its a human thing.

I like to DIY but it's one thing to paint a room yourself and screw up but it's another thing to mess with electrical, framing, or plumbing without the necessary training and experience. My husband is a seasoned mechanical and electrical engineer and thus has an inflated idea of what he can do. Several years ago he decided to replace a broken faucet himself even though I wished to hire a plumber. For some reason he wasn't able to get a valve loose with his tools and it broke off. The sink started flooding and he couldn't get the water turned off at the sink because of the broken valve. He didn't have the necessary tool either to turn off the water at the street. To make matters worse it was pouring down rain and it was a weekend evening. We had to spend a rather large premium on an emergency plumber visit.

Just because he was perfectly capable of unclogging a toilet with a plunger or replacing a ceiling fan didn't mean he was capable to replacing that faucet. Know your limits. You can get into serious trouble doing DIY work on a house.

I have found some posters to be extremely disrespectful and patronizing, including several of the pros. I don't understand why they think it's okay to treat people like that. Scoffing at posters for their taste, trying to impose their own taste on others as though it's THE current standard and how would anyone disagree, even mocking posters for their vocabulary, and addressing them as though they're teenagers. I am gob-smacked by some of what I see.

It's not generosity, that kind of behavior: it's self-aggrandizement. Consider the pro who complains when a poster follows the advice of an "amateur" instead of the self-described "pro".

There are however some truly generous spirits on this board, and those are wonderful to see. Unfortunately, they seem to get patronizingly cast as being "clique-ish" for being helpful and contributing heartily to a conversation. Especially, when patronizers get called out.

I think bullet-points are off-putting. I like the stories; they often reveal how much a poster loves their home, which is important in helping them. Tone, mood, what they'd really like, are all important in story-telling and getting a feel for a person. Home-making, IMO, is about decorating for the spirit of the inhabitants, unlike "design" which on this board too often seems to mean something like "these are the color/fabric/texture/layout/scale standards that are current for everybody so they're the way to go."

Advice given whether free or paid for that is rude is generally not listened to and clearly not appreciated. To tell people they should listen to this kind of advice is unrealistic. Sofie was abusive, arrogant with nothing constructive to say. If she knew a lot about a lot, no one was willing to listen because of the way the message was presented. No one wishes her or anyone ill. So Sofie, we well.

On the same vein, someone from some Design group recently made a comment when reviewing someones kitchen design "Your kitchen is already outdated because you have no kitchen drawers" What an idiotic comment. Maybe the person in their design plan doesn't want kitchen drawers. That doesn't make their kitchen outdated. Those kind of comments are the reason many people do not employ KD's.

Inga

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ifoco - sorry, but I strongly disagree with the second part of your comment. Designing a kitchen that doesn't have drawers is a mistake, potentially a costly one. Drawers are simply more functional than cupboards, and a modern kitchen without them would be a deal breaker if I were house hunting. There's a difference between saying something is outdated because it doesn't follow the latest trend, and saying it's outdated because it doesn't incorporate best practices. Drawers are in the latter category in my book.

But drawers are nothing new. My mother had mostly drawers for bases in the custom kitchen cabinets her uncle built for her and my dad in 1951. She had the same cabinets for 60 years. My house built in 1935, had some drawer bases as well.

I think both the advent of better drawer mechanisms and marketing by cabinet companies (they make more profit on drawers) have led to their widespread adoption. I don't think it's a matter of cupboards being outdated, it comes down to personal preference and budget. Are they more convenient, I think so, but that doesn't mean I think cupboards are outdated.

I had a kitchen designer tell me that if I didn't include a pull out trash/recycling bin in my kitchen remodel, my kitchen would be outdated even before installation. Plus, I she said I would hurt resale value. I have a very small kitchen - L shaped 7.5' x 12' , why would I waste such valuable real estate on trash? I'll keep it under the sink where I've kept it my entire life.

I just know that I have gotten many ideas from these posts, some have helped me make better informed choices! I love coming here!

I've posted this before but one of my pet peeves are posters looking for the free help/input/advice here but can't be bothered to take the ten seconds needed to make it easy reading for the readers. I guess most of these folks missed that day in the 3rd grade were we all learned the value of the paragraph and how that writing vehicle makes it so much easier for the reader. So we're presented with a single 2000 word paragraph that looks like this:

We start off with design issue number one, ramble on a bit and then move on to design issue number two, write about that for a while but wait, we forgot something important about issue number one, write about that, we then go back to two, then move on to three, then four, oops, going back on two, part of that was wrong so here's the correct room dimensions, move on to five with a little bit in the middle of that about the Aunt's house she designed herself and how delightful her house is, especially at Thanksgiving. Finally some landscaping questions, oops again, the issue number one clarification, buried in the middle of my isuue number two narrative, was incomplete, here's that info and it all looks like this. We start off with design issue number one, ramble on a bit and then move on to design issue number two, write about that for a while but wait, we forgot something important about issue number one, write about that, we then go back to two, then move on to three, then four, oops, going back on two, part of that was wrong so here's the correct room dimensions, move on to five with a little bit in the middle of that about the Aunt's house she designed herself and how delightful her house is, especially at Thanksgiving. Finally some landscaping questions, oops again, the issue number one clarification, buried in the middle of my isuue number two narrative, was incomplete, here's that info and it all looks like this. We start off with design issue number one, ramble on a bit and then move on to design issue number two, write about that for a while but wait, we forgot something important about issue number one, write about that, we then go back to two, then move on to three, then four, oops, going back on two, part of that was wrong so here's the correct room dimensions, move on to five with a little bit in the middle of that about the Aunt's house she designed herself and how delightful her house is, especially at Thanksgiving. Finally some landscaping questions, oops again, the issue number one clarification, buried in the middle of my isuue number two narrative, was incomplete, here's that info and it all looks like this. We start off with design issue number one, ramble on a bit and then move on to design issue number two, write about that for a while but wait, we forgot something important about issue number one, write about that, we then go back to two, then move on to three, then four, oops, going back on two, part of that was wrong so here's the correct room dimensions, move on to five with a little bit in the middle of that about the Aunt's house she designed herself and how delightful her house is, especially at Thanksgiving. Finally some landscaping questions, oops again, the issue number one clarification, buried in the middle of my isuue number two narrative, was incomplete, here's that info and it all looks like this. We start off with design issue number one, ramble on a bit and then move on to design issue number two, write about that for a while but wait, we forgot something important about issue number one, write about that, we then go back to two, then move on to three, then four, oops, going back on two, part of that was wrong so here's the correct room dimensions, move on to five with a little bit in the middle of that about the Aunt's house she designed herself and how delightful her house is, especially at Thanksgiving. Finally some landscaping questions, oops again, the issue number one clarification, buried in the middle of my isuue number two narrative, was incomplete, here's that info and it all looks like this. We start off with design issue number one, ramble on a bit and then move on to design issue number two, write about that for a while but wait, we forgot something important about issue number one, write about that, we then go back to two, then move on to three, then four, oops, going back on two, part of that was wrong so here's the correct room dimensions, move on to five with a little bit in the middle of that about the Aunt's house she designed herself and how delightful her house is, especially at Thanksgiving. Finally some landscaping questions, oops again, the issue number one clarification, buried in the middle of my isuue number two narrative, was incomplete, here's that info and it all looks like this.

When I see these and I know I can offer free valuable help, my eyes just glaze over and it's on to a better formatted design question.

The best questions are almost in outline form. This is important to not only get MORE responses but to get responses that correctly address the issues. Especially Important also in a forum where all participation is voluntary.

Well formatted questions are more likely to attract my interest with my free advice over spending my valuable time trying to untangle a cereal bowl of alphabet soup mish mash written by someone who couldn't be bothered to do that themselves.

I dislike any & every bathroom photo showing the toilet with a seat/lid with the lid UP! The lid is attached for a reason (to close it over the toilet). Public bathrooms don't have lids, probably for good health reasons. My MIL, who raised 4 boys with the seat lid DOWN, says that those who don't put the lid down are generally under educated, without proper manors training, & need to be prayed for.

We don't mention her stance on males who can't put the seat down

I was taught that guests should leave their hosts home as they found them. If I use a friends bath/powder room with the lid UP, I leave it that way. :-( Tired of making the rounds [so to speak] after my guests leave & putting the lid down. If you Pick it up Put it down!

IF YOU ARE GOING TO POST A PIX WHICH INCLUDES A TOILET WITH A SEAT/LID COMBO, MAKE SURE THE LID IS DOWN! If the lid is there & up it's GROSS by defintion. Or buy a toilet seat that doesn't have a lid.

Smiling re DavidandSue's post. This question was posed to Dear Abby years ago. Her response was that lid-down is the natural position of the lid.

Speaking as a noob here, and as someone who has an eye for good design but not the skillz to create it...

"Advice" like "drawers are simply more functional than cupboards" is something I really don't like. What does "more functional" mean here" Drawers are less flexible and more expensive. Cupboards can have roll-outs. Isn't this an obvious case of personal preference?

I also really hate comments like "There are a ton of issues with this design, like the sink is in totally the wrong place, you need to consult a Certified Kitchen Designer." OK, what are the other issues? Are you ever going to come back and tell the OP? Or is this just a hit and run? It's hard to view comments like this as well intended in any way.

I agree that the only way to "get really good" at something is to go out and do it. The problem is, however, that a whole lot of people think they can get really good at something by watching a few YouTube clips.

Agree here. Most things in this wacky thing we call "life" are learned skills and to get any good at most of them we usually have to get it wrong for a while.

Dislikes on Houzz advise...hmmm.

The occasional negativity, or delivery of harsh,rude tone.

Constructive criticism does not need to be negatively delivered. Putting someone's comment down to make another point is unnecessary. A rude comment can turn a post in the wrong direction fast & can intimidate a OP from coming back or readers from posting in the future. I imagine there's a lot of readers who avoid posting photos with a fear of harsh judgement. That's too bad,but understood.

There's an elegant, polite way to deliver an opinion without making someone feel less than another. There's enough rudeness in the world. Kindness is a choice which I try to do & appreciate back. Being able to deliver an opinion without offending is an art of tone. That's my opinion.

Opinions are opinions, everyone has one. They are subjective & unique. Just like taste. There's many varieties. Thankfully the world has many varities which keeps it interesting. Be a boring world if everything was the same.

Solutions to real problems is my favorite. Seeing someone post a real dillema, getting great,creative advice & seeing the OP being receptive & posting a great outcome, is my favorite.

Overall, I like Houzz advise & enjoy helping others with a current design dillema. There's a lot of great Houzzers with great solutions & helpful advice. I have learned a lot & grown as a designer thanks to the creative solutions of problems along the way. ;)

I think Houzz is a wonderful forum and I've learned a great deal from browsing and "lurking" as one poster above said.

It does bother me when posters don't include any information or pictures (although I know there have been many many issues with folks struggling to get pictures to post) but just saying "I have grey cabinets and white counters - what backsplash should I get" isn't going to get you the response you are hoping for. I think it would help if Houzz had a guide for people to use when posting (especially for the first time). Ideas about what types of information to include to get the best responses.

Also, I heartily dislike those that immediately respond "grey kitchens are overdone and out of style" as though that were written in stone. It would be better to say "in my opinion...." and offer an alternative suggestion rather than just shooting down the poster.

Finally, I really dislike the people who come looking for advice on something they've clearly already made a decision on. When people respond, they shoot it down and advise that they are going ahead with whatever they are going ahead with (often this involves taking down load bearing walls without checking with an expert). Why come for collaboration if you don't plan to heed any of it?

As others have said, you will get good advice and bad advice and everything in between, but we all come to Houzz for a reason. Either to learn or collaborate or gain useful advice and ideas, or just for entertainment. If you are not prepared to interact in a reasonable fashion then maybe just don't interact at all. Thank those who have taken the time to respond even if you don't agree or plan to follow their suggestions.

I apologize for not being clear about drawers. It would be silly not to have any drawers. Where would you put all of the stuff we all have that we never use:))

I should have said a kitchen is not outdated as was stated by a KD if they don't have these large drawers that hold dishes etc. My brother in law

is quite proud of his dish drawers because they are beefed up and can hold heavy plates.

That's great but I personally don't want to stoop down to get my dishes then stoop to put them back after stooping to get them out of the DW. . There's enough stooping to be done in a kitchen. I still think a KD to tell this person her design is already outdated without those hunking drawers. is just plain annoying. Whatever happened to designing a space for the people that are actually living and paying for that space? The appropriate thing to say would be "Have you considered large drawers to hold your dishes, pots and pans etc. They are quite popular and most people love them"

Age of a person is also relevant as to what they want. When I was 30 designing my kitchen, I didn't give stooping any thought. I was young, strong and athletic. Now I'm old, have had back surgery and am thoughtful of everything that adds more pain to my back.

When I designed my Florida kitchen I was in my early 50's. I designed to my needs and limitations of the existing space. I have lower cabinets without drawers but all lower shelves are roll out. I also have several bank of drawers with drawers of varying sizes. One side of my counter space is set at 34" high which is ergonomically correct for ME. Boy do you have to fight with cabinet people if you do anything out of the Norm, If I was clever, I could go back into previous posts of mine and bring up a picture of my kitchen. Sadly I'm not that clever:))

Resale: Is the most overrated comment. Why would I want to design my home/kitchen for a person I don't know if and when I will want to sell. Design what you like, what you can afford and be happy with what makes your heart sing. Life is short!

Inga

Please provide proper lighting in your pictures, not gloomy darkness.

I dislike not knowing the final outcome of the design dilemmas. We give each other all of the advice and time, both pros and amateurs and then then the poster says thank you and that’s the end. I like to see the final result. The finished kitchen, bathroom paint color, etc.

If someone wants more than the origination of a breadcrumb trail to research, then they can hire the Pro for Professional advice. If someone can't take that tip and properly research the hundreds of threads showing why drawers are better than pullouts, then their poorer functioning kitchen will be on them. Gosh forbid they work with a Pro for a better result than they could get on their own! Or let a brief comment spark a google search that they undertake themselves.

Handing someone all the answers, and an actual real word design is why people PAY designers. You're not getting that for free, just because you think it's a fun job. Working for free is confined to the poor TSA agents and others. Design Pros don't get paid for writing 3 pages about kitchen design theory on a free forum. Take what is offered, and use your initiative.

See, this is exactly what I find ridiculous and offensive. "Properly research the hundreds of threads showing why drawers are better than pullouts...[and if they do otherwise] their poorer functioning kitchen will be on them." Please. Both have their place. It's this kind of overly rigid commentary, basically suggesting that there is only one good way to do things and it is DEFINITELY not the way YOU are doing it, that is such a turn off. Many of us are just trying to do the best we can within a whole series of constraints - space, time, money, structural limitations. And many of us have preferences other than trying to put all our large pots and pans and electrics in a drawer.

I think lots of people are black-and-white thinkers, and that is definitely true here, and it is not a welcoming tone in an online forum. Especially when people suggest that what's really going on is a bunch of schmoes trying to scam free advice from "Design Pros."

I have yet to see a designer say anything controversial or rigid when one says they don’t have funds or are under certain constraints to do something. setting the parameters of the advice or guidance you need upfront is key to a good thread. It’s poor communication to ask for help and then ten posts later from those helping they’re told you have consraints. i see that happen often, and it is very poor communication.

You really don't think it's rigid to say "drawers good, cupboards bad, I've never heard of anyone switch back, end of story"?

On that side track that is being trekked down....

As a Kitchen Designer who is also a Certified Aging in Place Specialist, I can assure you that drawers are more ergonomic for people of all ages and abilities, which is why many feel called to recommend them with evangelical zeal.

I have many many hours of study on ergonomics, work flow theory, and calculating storage ability of different options. I don’t usually explain all of that when working in person with a client, because part of the reason that they work with me is my training, background, and certifications. So, they trust my recommendations. :-)

Drawers beat roll outs, hands down. Especially since most roll outs (not all) do not use the same high quality glides that drawers do. They take less grasping ability to activate, and there is no risk of damaging cabinet doors by having the pullouts move when the doors are not quite open. They are a single motion, that brings the contents to you, instead of a double motion. Standard door cabinets are WAY down the list for ergonomic storage.

The one exception to drawers working better than pull outs is when you have an odd sized appliance or pot that gets used frequently enough to deserve in kitchen space, rather than pantry or adjacent storage space. It may need the versatility of an adjustable height roll out. (Bear in mind that many cabinet lines roll outs are NOT adjustable.)

For instance, my bread maker gets a workout with winter soups, but the crab pot only gets used maybe twice a year. The bread maker is in the blind corner, and the crab pot is in the garage shelving.

The key to a well designed kitchen is an activity assessment, and a tools assessment both. Learn from mis en place restaurant production techniques and create storage zones around planned usage stations. That may mean buying an extra set of measuring spoons for the baking area, stored with your baking pans, as well a set for the general tools drawer. Or it may mean splitting your cookware set into different storage areas. Or the donation of some items that rarely get used.

A well designed kitchen, especially one with Universal Design considerations, will have a preponderance of drawer stack storage. But that is only a part of the whole. There is much more to that.

If anyanyone wants to read some accessible to the average person kitchen design theory, find copies of Don Silvers,Kitchen Design With Cooking in Mind. Or Kelly Morriseau’s, Kelly’s Kitchen Synch. Both will be immensely helpful. But, so will working with a good Kitchen Designer. Especially if you are on a deadline!

I can for sure send the invoice for that half hour to any email address willing to pay me. :-D But seriously, for people who haven’t worked with design professionals before, it can be difficult to bridge the trust gap that someone does have the knowledge and experience to make your project better for you. Every single kitchen that I do is undisputedly that person’s kitchen. Not mine. It is just better for them than they could create by themselves.

This whole "drawer" argument is merely a symptom of what I see as the real, underlying problem.

Someone posts a 3D rendering of their kitchen design and asks for comments. Quite often, the response will be " you should replace many of those lower cupboards with drawers because they're more functional." And you'll see that comment coming from pros and amateurs alike (heaven knows, no one would mistake me for a pro, but I've made that comment more than once myself.)

Yet here we have people taking umbrage with that sort of feedback because it's "rigid" or "not a welcoming tone." For heaven's sake, people are asking for advice and they're being given it. Yes, it's opinion, but that's what is being asked for, and it's often backed by explanations of why the person providing the advice has reached his or her conclusions.

The OPs are all adults, capable of deciding which advice to take or leave, and I see no particular reason to treat them as children in need of protection from the outer world. We're not talking about rudeness here, or personal attacks on the OP. We're just talking about people like myself expressing our opinions on something we care about, attempting to open up the OP to possibilities she may not have thought of. Yet, what seems to be being said here is that expressing those opinions, however politely or rationally we do it, is offensive in and of itself. We have come to a pretty poor state of discourse if that is the case.

You really don't see a difference between the way you phrase it ("many of those lower cupboards should be replaced with drawers") and "drawers are always better than cupboards"?

It's not a matter of treating people as children or protecting them from the outer world or woe is us about the state of discourse. That is an absurd straw man argument. I am not being a snowflake and I don't appreciate the implication. The original post was about what people don't like about these forums. My answer is that many posters here have an obnoxious tone and come off as rigid. That is what I don't like.

This being an internet forum, generally it's viewed as good practice to want more people to post. Yes, many people start on many forums by asking a question. If the forum is welcoming and people are nice to them, maybe they'll stick around and learn more things and contribute to a conversation. Or, maybe not.

Way to be welcoming and appreciative of an industry expert who took the time to write out the lengthy explanation of the reasons for the choice of drawers above. Time that could have been spent on a paying client.

One can only conclude that the non nice non acknowledgement of that effort was that it didn't support what was pre decided, so it must be ignored. Now who is rude and rigid? With their fingers stuffed in their ears to boot.

Excuse me? You are really extrapolating a lot. I did not ask for advice about drawers vs. cabinets or the reasons for one or the other. What Cook's Kitchen said is good advice and it was not my intent to rudely ignore it, but I don't need advice on that subject. (FWIW, I am putting both in my kitchen, after discussion and thought, with the assistance of an OMG kitchen designer.) I just pulled it from a previous post as an example.

If it's so much better to spend time on paying clients than to be polite to others on this forum, then I would encourage you to do that rather than wasting your time here.

This thread, meanwhile, is devolving. I've said my piece and it was not my intent to get in an internet fight. Y'all are definitely making it nice and clear who to avoid.

"I did not ask for advice about drawers vs. cabinets or the reasons for
one or the other. What Cook's Kitchen said is good advice and it was not
my intent to rudely ignore it, but I don't need advice on that subject.
(FWIW, I am putting both in my kitchen, after discussion and thought,
with the assistance of an OMG kitchen designer.)"

The "devolve"? Re phrase to the diffuse.

"While I did not plan to debate pullouts behind doors versus drawers, Cook's Kitchens explanation certainly has merit. I am in fact using both in my kitchen, carefully planned to suit me with the assistance of a kitchen designer."

That said and despite the veer, valuable advice/explanation WAS in fact just sprinkled into the mix. ........if only because 90% of lower storage in a kitchen is USUALLY best as drawer storage.

If "life imitates art" then perhaps all threads will sooner or later devolve to the not at alllll sotto vocce and highly irrationally irritated climate we see in all discourse of a political nature. The knee jerk, I'm offended, what did you mean by that, do you think I'm stoooopid, maybe that's what YOU like but I hate it and I think you suck for even thinking it and more than that you are simply insane ..............prickliness. God forbid someone said, "explain please ? I'm listening". God forbid : )

Whoa..... faint me dead away lol

I can't believe this post is still alive.

I find it comical more than something I dislike, that posters both Pro and layman , get competitive over their suggestions as if theirs is the only definitive answer.

I have always felt welcome! but once Or twice not appreciated because I’m not a pro. But I don’t care, it’s not my loss..there is competition in everything, enjoy it, embrace it. Chill out emho, it’s all opinion, som stronger than others..

I wish everyone would just chill. I‘ve seen the same type of arguments on many other message boards including wedding planning and trip planning.

So someone prefers cabinets to drawers. So what? It’s not they’re planning to forcibly enter your home and replace your drawers with cabinets.

I don't even actually prefer cabinets to drawers! I was only saying they each have their place! Yikes.

Now if you really want to get everyone worked into a frenzy talk about white subway tile ;))

I sometimes get annoyed when pros think all DIYers produce shoddy work. My husband is a perfectionist and his work is often better than some pros in our local area. He did ALL the work to build our basement bar, drywall, plumbing, electrical, bar construction, tile, stone fireplace, engineered hardwood floor, brass rail installation, etc. and it is gorgeous. See pics below

Unsolicited I realize. Lovely work! I'd have taken that hardwood thru the bar. : ) One color on the walls, chair rail and all below. Jmho, a much smoother, larger feel and a play up of all you want to notice after all the labor entailed.

Personally, I like the color difference. Having that brown color all over would have darkened the room too much and having just the white would have been bland since it's close to the fireplace color. As for the tile, I don't like to have any sort of wood, engineered or not, in an area that attracts spills. I find it to be impractical since I don't trust my sons to clean up spills right away. There's also a door right next to the wet bar and it's unclear what it leads to. If it leads to a laundry room or outside, then tile is quite practical.

There is a laundry and powder room behind the bar. Hubby also insists on tile in wet areas

He did a beautiful job, Connie and I agree with you that when you are doing it, it's going to be done right!

True that some diy projects look exactly like a diy project. As an example on my local Craigslist there's someone who clearly picks up furniture and throws a coat of chalk paint on it thinking they've transformed it. I'm not against painting a piece, but a coat of pale blue flat paint on a Queen Anne coffee table is NOT an improvement, imho. So you really have to ask yourself if you're improving a piece.

Also, sometimes a post appears where there is only a tiny tiny budget, but they need a change. It makes me sad that tumbleweeds roll on by and spiderwebs grow on those posts.

I theorize that the DIY'er was born as a result of shoddy work.

Actually, my hubby became a DIYer because he knew he could do a better job much cheaper. The bar itself was made totally out of leftover wood in the garage except for the wooden arm rail which he bought. Jan, we considered one wall color, but below the chair rail was very dark 70’s textured paneling. It looked strange as 2 textures in one color. The upper walls are a darker shade of the stone grout color. we have used your tips many times over the years.

Did he pull the proper permits and get inspected by codes enforcement?

Yes, when he did the initial construction. We helped build the oruginal house in 1977. This last phase didn’t need permits. He removed w/w carpet to install hardwood & tile & built the bar itself. Sink was installed originally