Lars, I heard them mentioning a predicted 3% for the humidity, but 7% is low enough!

My evacuees were able to return home today. Their complex is safe, but around them looks like post apocalyptic destruction. The loss of life and property is heartbreaking. I read that Paradise was an old mining town and the roads weren't equipped to handle the volume of traffic that overbuilding had caused. Politicians need to stop answering to developers.

Apocalyptic is the right word, for sure.

Chloebud - I'm in a relatively high humidity area, and so I'm sure other areas further from the ocean were 3%.

The devastation is much worse further north, but it's certainly bad enough here. There is more fuel for the flames in the north, where there are more trees. Our ecosystems down here also do recover much faster than the ones further north.

For more info about Santa Ana Winds, I recommend Joan Didion's Slouching Toward Bethlehem, which is a collection of essays about California life in the 1960s. She also makes mention of the Native people's legends about the winds and how they affected people's moods.

I'm afraid that with the climate change going on, the fires are going to get worse in the future, and people are going to have to be more careful about developing in fire-prone areas - just as people have to avoid developing flood zones. In Venice, I was in a Tsunami Zone, and there were signs on the sidewalks directing where to go in case of tsunami, but that danger seems relatively very remote. I'm no longer in a tsunami zone, as my house is about 80 feet above sea level (I think - maybe a bit higher), and I am also on top of a very slight hill so that water always drains away from my house, but this also means that my soil is very hard clay, making it difficult to grow things in the ground. I feel like I am on pretty solid ground here in case of earthquake as well. When I lived in Culver City, I was right on top of the Newport-Inglewood Fault, which is considered fairly dangerous, whereas now, I am on the Charnock fault, which is highly inactive and short. Playa Vista is also on this fault, and Playa Vista is on a site with large methane pockets, unlike my neighborhood.

I'm happy to hear that Compumom has her son with her - I knew her house was not in immediate danger, but I felt that she had ties with people in the fire zone. It is going to be very strange to go back to places I used to hike and see the devastation. Kevin told me that the old MASH tv show site burned in Malibu Creek State Park, but I hope the museum is still there. I've taken a lot of friends to visit that site, I used to take my inflatable boat to the reservoir on the creek (where Planet of the Apes was filmed) to paddle around, but it is a steep hike for taking a heavy boat. I'm going to want to go back to MCSP to see what is left - it is an extremely beautiful place, but hot in the summer.

Strange that a day ago I had posted here a thread on the fire topic, in it I suggested safer face mask and indoor air cleaner to filter out toxic gas from the fire. The thread was pulled and disappeared. It could have saved lives.

Anyway, for Lars, you can buy negative ion generators to offset positive ions in air.

I think I will go to LA and see for myself the devastation.

Time for the development of fire proof driver-less rescue vehicles to go in fire areas to save trapped people. We have more than enough technology to do that right now.

dcarch

I was just down in Woodland Hills visiting my DD and two GSs. The Woolsey fire came way too close. When they evacuated the area (West Hills) next to hers we loaded up both our cars with their needed things just in case she was evacuated too. We didn't need to evacuate, but it was quite scary one evening when she took this photo from in front of her local Vons grocery. This fire was no more than a mile away.

Praying for everyone! I’m all the way in Phoenix and there is some smoke here... these fires are crazy.

Yikes! Kate, I'm glad they're okay. And good for you that you all got ready to go. Way too many people waited too long, and some perished or nearly so. I get the retired fireman in the turnout gear who stayed to help save the neighborhood. He knew what he was doing and really knew why they evacuate. The number of hale old timers who just decided to ride it out, like the ones who figure they can outlast a hurricane, make me nuts, however. Endangering the fire crews because you can't be bothered to follow a lawful order, and having the hubris to think you can predict the path of the fire when the pros can't, is criminal. They never get prosecuted because everybody's just too grateful to survive, but even so. So I get lots of warm and fuzzies when I hear people know they might have to go, and are ready to move as soon as the word comes.

I used to have a negative ion generator, and I really liked it. Today, I have fountains, and when they are running, they generate negative ions the same way what waterfalls do, but I have to be very close to the fountains to get the effect.

I don't understand people riding out hurricanes when they have evacuation orders either. Personally, I've always valued life over an attachment to material possessions, and I became very aware of this during the Northridge earthquake when everything was flying around my apartment. I had the realization that nothing material mattered that much to me, and I didn't care what got broken as long as I was not killed. Of course with an earthquake one does not get advance notice.

I'm in So Cal and this time, not near the conflagrations, thank the Lord.

Here's a photo of one of he major fires we had years ago -- to me, it looked like the entire planet was on fire. One teacher and his family evacuated their home and ended up in the school's parking lot, my dentist's receptionist lost her home but everything with a heartbeat was safe, loads of all kinds of animals were evacuated by owners and volunteers with transportation/animal trailers and these were driven to the stadium parking lot, where water, feed, hay, temp corrals, etc were provided. Shelters were set up for people as well, at a variety of local sites.

It was awesome to see our community pull together like this, and so quickly!

Unfortunately, human greed soon reared it's fugly head.

We had loads of donated food, water, clothing, toys, etc set up at one end of the stadium parking lot, and anyone who was displaced could come and get whatever they needed. Sooner than later, the word got out and freeloaders lined up (many freely admitted no, they weren't displaced, they heard people were handing out free food and stuff). There's no way to control that, y'know.

I don't understand people riding out hurricanes when they have evacuation orders either.

I understand that better than trying to ride out a fire. Hurricanes are still very unpredictable as far as strength, for one thing, and the angle of approach. The odds of dying in a hurricane are way, way smaller than those of dying in a fire.

I live in a hurricane evacuation zone and have been evacuated about 7 times in the past twenty years. In each case, it was well over a week before we were legally allowed to come home (although there's always a huge black market in small boat transfers) and there was never any damage at all to the property when we got back. I do go, but believe me, I totally get the folks who decide to risk it. And there are always a lot of people who just can't afford to evacuate, too, like many of the people in the Hurricane Michael area. That's a very, very poor area. They can't afford several nights in a distant hotel. A lot of them couldn't even afford the gas to get to one.

It's really quite a different situation from fires. Fire is so much more frightening because it moves so fast. Stay safe, everyone.

"Of course with an earthquake one does not get advance notice."

Very true, Lars, and it scares the bajeeters out of me.

Almost 3,000 people died in Puerto Rico from Hurricane Maria, and so I think the odds of dying from a hurricane are higher than from dying in a fire. The people in Puerto Rico really could not get out, however. I would say that fires are more deadly than earthquakes (in this country), but I think more people die from hurricanes and floods, at least according to the statistics that I have seen. I used to live in a hurricane zone too (Houston). I had a cousin who was killed in a tornado, but he's the only relative I have who was killed in a natural disaster.

@tennessee_swift, wow...you notice the smoke in Phoenix? We're about 40 miles east of the fire and don't notice anything.

I tried to call my doctor's office in Pacific Palisades this afternoon to schedule an appointment in February, and I got a recorded message saying that they were unable to answer calls efficiently at this time and that if my call is not urgent that I should hang up and call back later in the week, which is what I will do. I think his office is close to some of the fires. I often take Temescal Canyon Road from PCH to get to his office. Yesterday I went to a dermatologist in Santa Monica to have a small bit of skin cancer (not melanoma) removed, and there were no problems getting there, but Pacific Palisades is right next to Malibu and Temescal Canyon Park. I wonder if Pali High is closed right now. There must be a lot of smoke there right now, and I think it should be closed because of that.

Our son and his bride live in Topanga Canyon and voluntarily evacuated last Friday, then Saturday it became mandatory. They were smart to get out early with their two cats and our sons valuable film and video equipment as the traffic trying to get out was horrendous as there is only two ways out and one was blocked by fire and closed. They are still evacuated, and staying with friends in Santa Monica.
We are about an hour and a half south near the beach, and can see the smoke to the West as it drifts out towards Catalina Island blown by the offshore winds.
This was the scene as traffic was evacuating Malibu, which is at the mouth of Topanga Canyon last Saturday...

What a terrifying image, cookncarpenter. I'm glad your son and his wife got out early.

So, what I'm hearing is that we need a better system for evacuations where elderly, disabled and just plain poor can sign up ahead of time, have a visit from a coordinator who will help them put together evacuation kits with copies of their personal papers and prescriptions, spare underclothes, a warm jacket and tennis shoes, a couple mylar blankets, some water. some high calorie tastes bad emergency food, in a wheelie. Help them find a place to keep it where it's easy to get out. And then when the evacuation is even contemplated, open an evacuation center and send a mini-bus to pick the people up. And also check with the social workers and anyone who would know and pick up the transients too.

If all of this is planned years ahead of time, and the lists are kept updated and all, perhaps those who need more community assistance on a daily basis can network and get aid they need, but most of all, not expect to drown or burn if the worst happens because they just don't have the resources to save themselves.

I don't know how to make that happen, but we should.

Well, since the Santa Rosa fires, we have a BOX that we put our art, mortgage papers, photos, and we have made what we call a "blue book". My father made this while he was dying so that we wouldn't have a hard time after he passed.

It included all life insurance info. All bank info, all auto info , including liscense info, insurance info, all car vin #s, bank box #s. My daughters know to go find this book just in case. Nancy

Boys schools are closed so they can clean smoke damage and HVAC systems.

Just for clarity's sake: When I referred to "hale old timers", I wasn't talking about the elderly who require help. I meant the people who populate the news who are old enough to have gray hair, but are physically fit and able. They stick around to use a garden hose to water their roofs, or as one guy did, be a solo bucket brigade from the spa to the attic. He saved his house. The issue would have been what if the firefighters would have had to have saved him and what would be lost if they were so diverted. They're still finding people who weren't so lucky. I get the impulse to save one's home, but one also must consider the negative impact one's actions have.

Re earthquakes, it's great that there's no warning though they're developing early warning systems that can transmit (communications are very close to the speed of light) a few seconds warning from when a quake is first detected to sensitive places like hospitals so the surgeon can pull the blade away rather than shaking and cutting through something important, and vital services such as breathing machines can go to on site backup power. That's excellent. Since I was a kid, however, I've thought earthquakes were better than hurricanes and tornadoes because there's no sitting around in shelters waiting. There's a BOOM, it shakes, you're alive or dead, the building is up or down, and you get on with it. A larger quake will have aftershocks, so you know those are coming, but the major ones are usually the first day (which can be stronger than the first one), and get weaker over time. It's interesting watching the floor do sine waves. In '94 I was thinking how glad I was that I understood plate tectonics because otherwise I might be scared. Fire is scary.

The big fire disasters that we are all paying for big time year after year should be mostly avoidable with our advanced technologies today, possibly minimizing the number of victims also.

For instance, an IR camera equipped satellite to pinpoint a fire the second it starts and send a plane to put it out in 15 minutes. We use that technology to kill terrorists now.

dcarch

Talk about technology, since most of these recent fires have been caused by arcing high power lines, that's where the tech developments can most be used to prevent catastrophic fires.

"--most of these recent fires have been caused by arcing high power lines---"

That is true. However, our political system is designed to get nothing done (relative to infrastructure).

When invasive vines climb up a power tower/poles the high voltage power lines will arc and burn the vines.

dcarch

These are stock-holder utilities, run for a profit.

Take a look at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ-2I26fdpw

Vegetation is wet, electric power heats up the wet branch, carbonizes the branch, carbon is a very good electric conductor, arcing and burning starts.

dcarc h

These fires were caused by high winds affecting the power lines.

"Since I was a kid, however, I've thought earthquakes were better than
hurricanes and tornadoes because there's no sitting around in shelters
waiting. There's a BOOM, it shakes, you're alive or dead, the building
is up or down, and you get on with it."
Ha! As a 66 year so cal native, I can so relate and agree!

I agree about earthquakes, as a 50+ year former Californian. The quakes in other countries sound awful, but a lot of the death toll is from the collapse of subsistence housing or very old buildings. After 1989 building codes were modified to repair un-reinforced masonry buildings and other structures. I'd rather ride thru another 7.0 Loma Prieta quake (not far from us) than a hurricane or tornado.

Earthquakes may be no big deal, it's tsunami that can really kill.

In one incident 30,000 died in Japan.

dcarch

Don;t forget the tsunami of 2004 that killed more than 225,000. At leaston the west coast, you pretty well know if you are a tsunami zone, In Hawaii, there are alarms and drills.

"It was fun, until it wasn't"

Words spoken this past week by my seven-year-old grandson. Words that could be quite apropos in situations like this - and by NO means am I making light of this - it's when people stay to ride out a situation rather than evacuate that bad things can happen with best intentions ...

Someone wrote in the letters to the editor today that a plug in a bathroom or kitchen has the capacity to turn off the power in 1/40th of a second if, say someone drops a hairdryer into a sink. Why can't the power companies develop something like that for power lines?

They have also been turning off the power lately to areas in high wind situations with a lot of criticism from small businesses who have lost freezers full of food, or business for several days.

Amen Nancy! The power company is a publicly traded company and we are the stockholders. The public is screwed by them-- the responsibility for the Paradise Fire and the Woolsey fire lies firmly in their lap.

Kate-- my DD, DSIL and 2 DGrands used to live quite near your kids. They recently relocated to Atlanta, but that fire was too close to their home. Glad your family is ok! Same to CookCarpenter. Topanga was one frightening place!

Why can't the power companies develop something like that for power lines?

Well, they probably could if you want the power to go off automatically every time a rat, squirrel, or branch touches a line.

We can't do underground lines here because if they get wet with salt water they're completely toast, but in places where it's possible it seems well worth the expense.

Underground lines are a lifesaver in my neighborhood. We live in the foothills and I'm so grateful to not have power lines strung over our house during windy weather. They did have a problem with underground water seeping into the vaults, but finally replaced the wiring with something better and now our power seems to stay on through almost any storm.

Smaller lines can go underground, but can those BIG lines that march across our landscape on monstrous pylons carry too much DC electricity to do so. But as you all said: with the technology today it should be possible.... but then there's the money funded to do so. Some of those executives might have to take a smaller salary. HAH!

Yeah, it's the telephone that gets flooded and fried in the underground vaults. :)

"Smaller lines can go underground, but can those BIG lines that march across our landscape on monstrous pylons carry too much DC electricity to do so. ----"

Those tall steel towers carry extremely high voltage 100,000 volts or more. The higher the voltage, the smaller the wire they can use, and the longer distance they can transmit power with less power lost.

The problem with such high voltage is that they will arc if they are close to the ground. They also generate powerful magnetic field that can interfere with many electronic equipment.

The street power pole also carry very high voltage, somewhat less than 10,000 volts. It's easier to bury those underground.

BTW, they don't do DC electric power anymore for many years.

dcarch

Well, everyone get out your rakes (and vacuums as the people in Finland do) and our problem will be solved!

Yes, of course, it's the leaves that are causing the problem. And while you're out raking the forests, maybe you can determine why Southern California is so mismanaged that it can't be snow covered 5-7 months out of the year, like Finland, because that would help prevent fires too. (You may insert an eyeroll AND a sigh here)

Annie

Well this thread has wandered all over the place. Bringing it back to the sheer arbitrariness of the fires...

My cousin who was evacuated was able to return back to her apartment with no damage.

A family friend’s daughter lived in Paradise - she and her husband got out with just the clothes on their backs.

"Yes, of course, it's the leaves that are causing the problem. -----"

I believe there is a big gap in our scientific understanding of the true nature of this kind of fire. Until we do, the same disaster will happen again and again.

1. You will notice that only houses and building are completely burnt out, but the trees around them suffered much less damages, unlike normal forest fires.

2. Something no one has noticed; a typical fire storm is very hot near the top and cooler near the bottom, because heat rises, but if you look carefully, the metal tire rims of the burnt out cars, which are touching the ground, are melted into puddles. Extraordinary furnace temperature at ground level.

dcarch

I believe there is a big gap in our scientific understanding of the true nature of this kind of fire.

I agree, dcarch. There's also the issue of fire tornados, which fortunately wasn't a major one in these last fires, but surely was in last year's. Nobody thought a fire tornado could get as big as one did last year.

agmss, I'm just glad your Paradise friends got out, even with nothing.

agmss, your Paradise friends got out, and that's what's the most important. I realize that some belongings can never be replaced, like that art collection mentioned above, or a home that someone has worked on for years, or articles that have untold sentimental value, but if a person doesn't make it out, those items mean nothing.

It seems that the fires are contained or mostly out, with the recent rains, but hundreds of people are still unaccounted for or missing, and some may never be found or identified.

My stepson and his family do live in California, but they are near Laguna Beach and so, thankfully, they are safe and unaffected, but it's still worrisome.

My thoughts and prayers are with everyone in the path or area of these fires and hopefully the rain won't cause a lot of additional problems, although I understand it is hampering search operations.

Annie

"---but hundreds of people are still unaccounted for or missing, and some may never be found or identified.---"

The fire was hotter than for cremation. Many of the missing can never be found.

See metals melted:(and trees not damaged)

dcarch

I can't comment on the Paradise Fire because I've never been there but....

the Woolsey Fire was burning fields of wild grasses and scrub-shrubs;

many CA evergreen trees are actually resistant to fire - such as Redwoods and Sequoias; the bark may singe but never actually burn.

dcarch: the photos of metaled metal are really mind-blowing - to think the fires were as hot as a blast furnace.

I'm smack in the middle of the ruins of Panama City, FL (my hometown). Recovery is so very S-L-O-W here. We still have mountains of debris to be picked up 6 weeks later. We were without power 16 days. We count ourselves amongst the lucky - we have jobs and a home to return to - most do not.

Here are few pics from immediately after the hurricane (yes, we evacuated!).

Glad your friends in Paradise got out - I agree that saving your life is more important than saving material things, although replacing a house without fire insurance will be very difficult, but then you can't move that anyway. During the Northridge quake when things were flying across the room, my only thought was that I survive the quake alive - I suddenly lost all attachment to any items I saw being destroyed. I had a lot of broken glass to deal with plus a huge mess in the kitchen.

As for tire rims melting - if they are aluminum, that is not surprising, as aluminum has a melting point of about 1100°F, and I have melted aluminum pans in my Big Green Egg. Pizza ovens can easily get that hot.

I think Panama City is now suffering partly because FEMA is being stretched too far.