Ok, I had a large kitchen to fill and plenty of room for a CSO. I got the Thermador version, but it was at an outlet and a really great price. It defrosted chicken beautifully when my family decided last minute they wanted grilled chicken for dinner. It reheated a personal favorite hot sandwich on 2 day old baguette and made it taste like it was fresh (no joke). I found and read (lol) the manual and they do slow cooking as well. It‘s a regular convection oven, so everything you do in the big oven, you can do in these. I really bought it for bread baking because my family has a favorite country bread recipe - supposedly it can create the same crusts as the commercial bakers do (because their ovens have steam too). I’m extremely new to CSOs and I absolutely love mine. For a speed oven, my mom loves her Advantium. Get the 220 version if you decide a speed oven is more your thing. Mom uses hers constantly for about 10 years now. It’s really about how you cook and what features you need.

I have a countertop combo steam oven (Cuisinart), and I'm not sure how much I like it......I might return to my previous Breville Smart Oven. I've been using it for several months now, and I'm still not sure. The Smart Oven has larger capacity and is a better countertop convection oven, and steaming veg or dumplings is just as easy on the stove. The one thing it does that I couldn't do before was steaming and baking at the same time. I'm not yet sure if that's worth keeping it.

CSO? It (and my induction cooktop) are the best things about my kitchen. Everything that Rita said.

Toronto, it sounds like you aren't using your Cuisinart to it's fullest potential? Sure, you can steam veg or dumplings in it, and certainly you can do it just as well on the cooktop, but where it really shines (imo) is in combi mode.

I'm not a big "steam" person. I don't know that it is any healthier. If I did need steam or higher humidity I have alternative ways that work pretty well and easily to do just about everything people mention. A roast chicken can be amazing in a regular oven too. I do a quick and dirty sous vide in ziplock in a pot of water no more than 45 minutes for well done steaks for those who must but otherwise they go on the grill. If I wanted to sous vide I would buy a legit controller because sous vide cooking must be done at very specific temperatures.

I would consider a combi oven if I baked a lot of bread because while you can steam in a gas and electric oven, an electric oven is not really designed to have a lot of steaming going on inside and the electronics might be subject to damage. With gas ovens can be difficult to keep steam in the oven.

If I were replacing my oven now and someone had an oven with the features I have now and added steaming capabilities for a little bit more I would probably consider it depending on how it worked- plumbed, good control of humidity on a gradient. It would be nice to have the ability to actively vent steam so you could go to a dry situation quickly.

"where it really shines (imo) is in combi mode"

Yes, as I said that's the one thing my Smart Oven and stove can't do.....I'm just not sure that it's worth giving up my Smart Oven for that.

My hunch is that CSOs are designed for people who like to eat good food, but don’t have the time. Yes, you can accomplish all the things a CSO does at home with good standard kitchen equipment, but why would you want to. I push a few buttons and the food comes out amazing. Cleanup is so easy. Not worth going back. I do have 30” double convection ovens and I certainly do use them still. I, personally, want it all. When the boys are bigger, I’ll probably replace the microwave with an Advantium. I can do that ‘cause my husband’s an electrician. It’s all good. I have a big kitchen, and a big family who all cook. I can assign them all their own oven. Life is good.

You can cook the fish vegetables and a starch, like couscous or bulgur, all at the same time in the CSO without any flavor transfers, which is indeed a boon if you are pressed for time or just like being efficient ;-)

"Yes, you can accomplish all the things a CSO does at home with good standard kitchen equipment, but why would you want to."

I just can't think of anything I cook that the CSO would make it easier for me and it is a lot of money.

Some people need the utility of two 30" ovens and don't have room for another oven. It would cost $$$$ for one big enough to sub for a wall oven and it would still be smaller.

"You can cook the fish vegetables and a starch, like couscous or bulgur, all at the same time in the CSO without any flavor transfers, "

This is because of convection and the catalyzer rather than the steam.

For someone making this decision, they need to isolate what the steam capability truly adds to the combi oven and how they might use it. Do you use steam now? Maybe try it using what you have now to steam and see if it is something you want and if it is worth the money spent for the convenience.

You have to determine the validity of some of the marketing. At one time it was thought that "steaming vegetables (or other foods) is healthy" but it is much more complicated than that. The healthiest method of cooking depends on the vegetable, the nutrient, the property of the nutrient you are trying to improve or maintain and how that nutrient is transported into the body to be utilized. You just about need a chart before you start cooking. Many of the advantages listed in ads are actually from the convection more than the steam.

If you decide a CSO is for you, read the the use and care manual to get an idea of what each oven does. There can be big differences.

I want to thank everyone for their comments. I'm really interested to know if you have a steam oven, use it, love it or hate it. I'm not really concerned about the 'healthiness' of foods cooked in steam. I'm interested in perfect done-ness, flavor and texture. Enjoyment. We are all avid cooks and rarely eat out - texture and flavor drive what we want to be able to do with our tools. I do steam things now using those 'regular kitchen' tools. Meh. I recently had the same foods cooked in a steam oven and I was impressed - impressed enough to consider spending too much money at the last minute to change plans that are basically done. I was impressed by both the cooking and its ability to do many things at once, sort of a 'sous chef' capability. I can tweak the plans to add a combination oven to the mix without changing out an existing oven - I have 3 regular convection ovens and use them all at holiday and party times, but 4 ovens seems like dramatic overkill - or I can trade out the double oven for a single plus the combination (for even more money). I guess my deepest question is: if you bought one, do you use it - did it live up to its billing? Does it reliably produce great results?

Cat, search "steam oven" or "combi" or "CSO" on this forum because there are a lot of posts already written. People come and go here. I would say most people that have them like them. I can't think of anyone who did not like it that bought one so in reading these posts over many years I would say they do what they say they will do. Most people with combi ovens say it is their most used appliance. That is because it is multifunctional and can act as a regular convection oven and preheats quicker than many regular ovens. It is a convenience, a one button way to do something you can do in other ways, but it requires a space in your kitchen and money. I'd say if you can give up one of your ovens, and have the money to get one that is highly functional, go for it.

Even though posters here consistently say they like their steam/combi ovens, they all are very different in function so you will have to do research about what functions you want. These are a couple of pages from the Gaggenau instructions that give you an idea of what that particular oven will do.

Another option that I have considered is a portable commercial combi oven. some come as countertop models or are on legs to roll around. They come in full, half and quarter sheet sizes. They are not typically covered by a warranty for residential use though.

I love my CSO. I don’t think this one’s a fad that’s going away. It’s a time saver for me. Yes, you can still build a campfire and cook over that, but there‘s a big reason why we don’t anymore.

Another vote for the CSO. We absolutely love ours and use it all the time. I also made the change to include the CSO in the renovation at the last minute and was sure happy I did!

MJ

This is because of convection and the catalyzer rather than the steam.

For someone making this decision, they need to isolate what the steam capability truly adds to the combi oven and how they might use it.

I am not convinced this is a true statement. Cooking with steam is quite different from cooking with air. There are all sorts of different cooking media (water, oil, dry air, steam, ...). They all have their own advantages and disadvantages.

In this particular example, dry air actually has really poor heat conductivity and really poor heat capacity. If it wasn't for natural or forced convection, it would in fact be a really good insulator. On the other hand, steam is at least twice as good at transporting heat (and half as good as water). That makes quite a difference and explains the frequently much shorter cooking times in a CSO vs. a conventional dry-air environment.

Also, you get the whole wet-bulb vs. dry-bulb temperature difference thing. Steam heats surfaces of wet ingredients (e.g. steak) much more effectively. That might be desirable, or that might be not what you want. But with a CSO, you can control this.

With conventional oven, you can't start heating the surface until it has started drying out. That probably explains why everybody raves about juicy crispy roast chicken from a CSO.

M, It is two separate statements.

My first statement is taken out of context and is a comment on this. It is talking just about transfer of flavor.

"You can cook the fish vegetables and a starch, like couscous or bulgur, all at the same time in the CSO without any flavor transfers,

This is because of convection and the catalyzer rather than the steam.

____________

The second statement is this.

For someone making this decision, they need to isolate what the steam capability truly adds to the combi oven and how they might use it.

I agree that using steam has certain unique capabilities and that is my point. Because a CSO can also function as a regular or convection oven many people attribute things that are functions of standard or conv ovens as benefits of the CSO. I'm saying isolate the benefits of steam to see if a CSO is a worthwhile investment for that person. Someone might say I can bake great cookies in a CSO. You can but there is not an exclusive benefit or use of the steam capabilities for that.

"In this particular example, dry air actually has really poor heat conductivity and really poor heat capacity. If it wasn't for natural or forced convection, it would in fact be a really good insulator."

Heat transfer is a pretty complex subject. A standard/conv oven has so many variables. A CSO adds steam but might take away something else. Cold air would be an insulator to cold chicken but hot air would still transfer heat. Fan assisted convection is one way to increase the rate of transfer because it moves that slightly cooled hot air away and replaces it with hot air. You also have heat transfer by conduction and radiation. Radiation can be 50% of the heat. How does the radiant heat vary in an oven with stainless walls vs enameled steel? With a hidden bake element? What is the bulk of a CSO vs regular ovens and how much heat does it hold. How does a Pyrex dish increase the rate of heat transfer in the different types of ovens vs aluminum or stainless steel pans?

If you think about what happens in cooking, it raises a lot of questions. I have actually read that steam can be cooling. It slows the setting and browning of a crust on a loaf of bread. How can that be if it increases the rate of heat transfer? I guess the question would be if water vapor is condensing on the surface of meat, releasing heat and then evaporating taking away heat, what is the net loss or gain of heat? How does conductive and radiant heat figure in? How does the presence of water figure in besides increasing the rate of heat transfer?

What is the level of humidity in a regular oven in different situations? How does it compare to a CSO? The Gaggenau use and care manual gives some insight into this. See the chart above.

https://media3.gaggenau.com/Documents/9000880517_J.pdf

Unless you have some way to measure humidity in the oven and adjust the amount of steam injected, the percentages are just names of settings for how much steam is released. I think it is more of a convenience than control. Control is some more and a lot. I don't believe there is any feedback mechanism to add control like you have for temperature. 80% setting may really be close to 100% of saturation, so is there a real functional difference between 80 and 100? They say that the 30% setting is the amount of humidity a cake releases while baking with the vent closed, no additional steam is released by the oven. How much more vapor is released while cooking something like a chicken, especially if it has drippings underneath evaporating? O% setting is whatever intrinsic humidity is provided by the food cooking minus what is vented out with the vent open. I don't know if it is actively ventilated. I'm sure these actual percentages vary pretty significantly. How would humidity vary in an electric oven (very small vent) vs a gas oven (big vent)?

"With conventional oven, you can't start heating the surface until it has started drying out. That probably explains why everybody raves about juicy crispy roast chicken from a CSO"

Juiciness of the chicken is determined by the end temperature of the meat rather than a little superficial dryness. The temperature probe is what is responsible for that. You can submerge a chicken in a pot of water and boil it dry. This is a pretty good article that talks about this.

"The higher the internal temp the meat achieves, the more water it squeezes out and the drier it gets. In general, most meats are juiciest and most tender when cooked to medium rare, 130 to 135°F internal temperature."

https://amazingribs.com/more-technique-and-science/more-cooking-science/basic-meat-science-cooks

Whatever drying you have initially is very superficial and you will need to have it in cooking a chicken one way or another to get crispiness and browning. There are techniques to blow fans on chickens to dry the skin out before cooking so it will be crispy. Check out this technique using a hair dryer.

http://mytartare.com/tip-blow-dry-chicken/

When a chicken cooks, the steam or hot air only affects the outside as far as drying. The inside of the chicken is cooked by heat transfer from the outer layer of chicken next to it.

Almost every convection oven advertises juicy chicken with a crispy skin as a selling point. Cooking chicken is a balance in heat transfer and drying to get the perfect 165F end temp internally along with browning and crispiness no matter how heat is applied. Sous vide brings the meat up to the perfect temperature by cooking with a very low gradient of heat, and then super intense heat to brown. With a combi oven, the chicken is cooked by steaming but to get browning, you have to get drying.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f3qQh3DHDGA

Baked goods are different from meat as far as the way they react to heat and steam.

Sort of a side issue I noticed is that foods that have more fat seem to brown even in the presence of steam. Plllog here has talked about how chicken browns, being steamed at the end of roasting. Pie crust creates steam and it browns while baking. I think with the chicken, you have a layer of fat on the outside of the chicken skin from basting or fat being released during cooking. As the skin heats, moisture reaches the boiling point and turns into steam. As it rapidly expands, it goes through the fat but the fat acts as a barrier to it coming back onto the skin. You have drying that way.

There the are probably a hundred more effects that are not being considered. Another interesting comparison is a steam assist like Thermador/KA vs moisture assist like Capital vs the CSO.

The point that I was trying to make is that in a CSO you can in fact cook very different foods all at the same time (e.g. rice, vegetables, fish and chicken). Flavor transfer or lack thereof is of course one aspect, but so is the ability to heat all of these foods consistently all at the same time.

And I can't avoid feeling that steam that is added in a controlled fashion plays a unique factor here. With conventional ovens, the surface of your food stays at 212°F for a really long time, until it has finally gone dry and the temperature can rise more.

But in steam oven, you have a medium that has really good heat capacity. And it actually is hotter than 212°F. You can also set it to 100% humidity. This way, the vapor pressure stops additional evaporation/drying of your food, but allows it to heat up and reach the desired core temperature.

So, yes, you are correct that core temperature is a big factor in whether we perceive food as dried out. But stopping it from losing excess moisture close to the surface is a unique advantage that you can't really replicate any other way.

You are correct that there are tons of different factors that affect how food cooks. But I am not convinced that you can discount the effects of super-heated steam as much as you do. Claiming that a CSO is just a convection oven with a little bit extra is just as misleading as discounting that a CSO builds on top of multiple technologies that all contribute to what it can do.

Literally the only negative things i have ever read about built in steam wall ovens are from people that dont have one. Evrryone who has owned one likes it or loves it. Having one for over a year now i would not plan a high end kitchen without it. Honestly just get one, you wont be sorry.

I’m in agreement- I love my steam oven. Incidentally, yesterday I baked a loaf of my family’s favorite bread and it cooked in 1/2 the time. I’m really glad I checked on it :-) I will have to adjust accordingly. Crust is super!

Thank you - I've decided I'm going to go with the Combi-oven. Now I have to decide what additional *single* wall oven to pair with it.

Cat, glad that you made your decision. Which one are you getting? I think you will like it if you do as much cooking as you do. Wall ovens a whole other subject!

Yup - off to start looking at those!

M, I believe I used that very word "unique" when I agreed with you above on the usefulness of steam for some applications. I am not at the mercy of my convection oven though, if I want to cook in it, producing sad dried up food. I can think of a lot of ways to stop peripheral moisture loss if I want to do that, and some would provide extra flavor. I can cover the surface of what I am cooking with some tasty fat of some kind. I might put it in a roaster for a flavorful braise. I can poach in wine or another liquid in the oven. I can wrap it in parchment paper. There's always a water bath or pan of water in the oven. Preheated lava rocks doused with water.

"So, yes, you are correct that core temperature is a big factor in whether we perceive food as dried out."

It is not a perception that the meat is dry. It is a physiological temperature related process that squeezes the water out of the meat fibers. It is an irreversible change like cooking an egg white. Think of a well done steak.

" But I am not convinced that you can discount the effects of super-heated steam as much as you do."

Me? From what you were saying, I thought you were talking about wet steam so my comments were on that and not discounting it at all. Can you explain about superheated (dry) steam And how these ovens provide it? I'm not sure I understand it all that well. I've only heard that term associated with Sharp ovens but it has two steam generators wet and dry. There are some commercial ovens that do have it. I do know the effects are quite different.

"Claiming that a CSO is just a convection oven with a little bit extra is just as misleading as discounting that a CSO builds on top of multiple technologies that all contribute to what it can do."

I am do not discount anything. This is an appliance forum so people often come here because they want to know what appliances do. The OP asked for good points, bad points but I like to talk about how something functions and not assign good or bad to it. One person's good point might be another person's bad point.

It is a convection oven with an "extra", being steam and some preprogrammed cooking instructions. Little bit or lot extra? You decide. There are some functions that some convection ovens have that CSOs don't have. Just because you talk about what they are doesn't discount them. I haven't disagreed that the CSO uses multiple technologies or that they are usable. I had a lot of questions, many of which I posted that I would want to know the answers to before I bought one. Reading the Gaggenau manual answers some of them. The more you read, the more you know. I did find out at least one Gaggenau CSO has a moisture sensor but not its function. Is it just an indicator that the oven is steaming or is it part of regulating the amount of steam?

In my kitchen now I would have to get rid of an oven to bring the CSO with functions I would want so the benefits have not outweighed the loss of the other oven for me yet. That may change who knows.

_______

"Literally the only negative things i have ever read about built in steam wall ovens are from people that dont have one."

What have you read negative? I have read what people have said about why they might not want one but I can't recall ever reading negative comments.