The “Butler’s pantry” has to be between the food production area and serving area to actually get used. Separating the kitchen from the main dining area. That’s completely useless and awkward as designed.

So...for the food preparation cycle you intend to use the small sink in the island...is that correct? Do you have a pantry for dry food stuff storage?

And for clean-up, all the dirty dishes, pots, and table clearing items will have to be taken to the furtherest point, the "butler's pantry"...is that correct?

Have you ever experienced this sort of arrangement before?

The dining area is to the left of the main kitchen, so that is true. The pantry wouldn't be separating the kitchen from the dining area.

This echoes one of the concepts from The Case for Rooms, which was recently cited on 2 different posts on this forum. It's not a butler pantry, it's a mess kitchen.

In a recent essay in The Atlantic, Ian Bogost described a new luxury concept called the “mess kitchen”—a second kitchen out of sight from the main kitchen and the rest of the open plan. He cited it to demonstrate why the open floor plan and its rhetoric around “entertaining” have reached new levels of absurdity. However, to me, the mess kitchen offers hope for a transitional period where open spaces may become closed again.

Virgil, yes, the small sink on the island would be for prep. The dry food would have to go in the pantry too...on the wall backing up to the stove? No, I haven't experienced this sort of arrangement before. Maybe it's just a bad idea all together. That's why I'm throwing it out here to see what everyone says. We could always just use the pantry for nothing other than a storage pantry and move the dishwasher out to the island and make the sink on the island bigger.

tira_misu - Thanks. I think a mess kitchen is a better term for the concept. One reason I started to buy into the concept is our current open kitchen is always a mess. DH leaves everything on the counter. I clean it up and the next day it is a mess again. But then, how do I get him to leave his mess in the "mess kitchen" and not the open one? LOL I do like the kitchen being open to the family room, so I wouldn't want a completely closed off kitchen either.

Friends of mine have a small "caterers' kitchen" where they can stage food and put dirty dishes when they have parties (which they do frequently.) However, it's almost exclusively used by caterers and servers. The rest of the kitchen is a regular, large and fully equipped family kitchen. You need a lot of space for a set up like that. I personally would prefer one big kitchen to your proposed set up. Dishwashers are now very quiet, and frankly if I'm hand washing dishes there better be no one watching TV! :) YMMV

I'm glad you posted here because I think you can do better. If you also post the whole floor plan so people can see the room flow you'll get some great layout suggestions, which I hope you'll be open to. (For example - your current refrigerator placement might cause a pinch point by the island with the doors open, and you'll need to double check that the door can open all the way next to the wall on its left.)

Here is an expanded view showing the main living area.

Where will you store all the dishes? In the public kitchen or the back kitchen?

I was thinking the everyday dishes would need to be stored near the dishwasher and sink in the back kitchen.

Seems like a lot of daily hassle for an occasional benefit.

following

Vernahope- everyday dishes stored in the butler's pantry seems a bit awkward. Do consider how much "hop around" you will do, in your every day life. Forgive me, if this is obvious (I'm having a hard time reading the plan- my computer or my old eyes!) but do you have another dishwasher in the kitchen? If so, and dish storage in is the butler's pantry, prepare to hike a bit. If not, prepare to hike from the kitchen to the BP, every day. Inefficient.

Stepping lightly, but if you are concerned with noise, you should invest in the best venting hood/system possible. I have an in island cooktop, and I love it. I'm with my guests/family OR I'm looking out to a beautiful view of our back yard. But that took a lot of "doing" to make it work- and a bit of $$$, too!

You have a great space. Just make it work for you. Best piece of designer advice I ever got? There is the way we think of as a perfectly designed space. And then there is the way we really live. Lucky you- you get to make the best choices for you.

Keeping your dishes in the back kitchen would make emptying the dishwasher quicker but then you would have to walk all the way there when you want a drink, when you set the table, and when you're ready to plate your meal.

We also thought it would keep the noise down if one of us is doing dishes or the dishwasher is running while the other is trying to watch tv, read, etc.

• Get a very quiet vent for your cooktop.
• Use your smoothie maker, food processor, coffee grinder/espresso machine in your back kitchen.

Edited : sorry if I'm repeating the same as Laurie - she posted while I was writting.

I'd go with a real 5'W pantry (instead of a butler's one) and it will be large enough to store everything you want, including appliances.

Remove the opening on the right so you have continuous counter and access pantry on the left (family foyer). Add the extra 3 feet to the kitchen so you have a wider island and also room for island stools (you have no room for stools now). Place the sink at the window (make it wider).

Relocate refrigerator near family entry/dining room.

What you have now is not a Buttler's pantry. It is almost a scullery, and is a bit much for a home this size.

Our first thought with this plan is that we want to keep all of the dirty dishes and clean up in the working butler pantry so our island could stay nice and clean.

One reason I started to buy into the concept is our current open kitchen is always a mess. DH leaves everything on the counter. I clean it up and the next day it is a mess again.

Are you ok seeing the mess everytime you enter the house into the family foyer? And coming in from your covered patio where you might entertain?

(I'm refering to the floor plan you posted a few days ago)

tira_misu - We were going to also add pocket doors to the end of the pantry that faces the family foyer, so I guess my thought was to shut those doors too!

Vernahope: my bad I missed the part where you mentionned that.

Anyway, I feel for you. I hate clutter and messy kitchens but can't keep mine clean either. I get annoyed eveytime I walk into our dirty kitchen so hiding the mess seems like a solution.

Although 2 level islands are falling (have fallen?) out of favor, this might be an instance where some strategic height changes could shield the mess from the rest of the house without completely changing the open concept.

And what is your budget to have two upscale kitchens instead of one? 200K? 250K? 300K? Just for the kitchens?

Do your husband's dishes at least make it to (or close to) the sink? If so, I'd consider getting a nice deep sink in the main kitchen. I am the one who doesn't immediately clean up in my relationship, but now that we have a massive, deep sink, the dirty dishes are pretty good at hiding while they are stacked and waiting for me (or more likely my husband) to get to them. If you put it under the window, the fridge would also provide some visual cover for that "clean up" area, but you might have to move the wall ovens (or go with a range) to fit a dishwasher there.

How often do you plan to host guests or parties? If it's often enough to have a kitchen-and-a-half, I'd imagine it's often enough to have party dishes and "everyday" dishes. Store the separate set for parties in the back kitchen. With two sets, you don't need the scullery sink so close to the main kitchen and you can move it back out of the corner.

One reason I started to buy into the concept is our current open kitchen is always a mess. DH leaves everything on the counter.

What exactly does he leave out? I happen to have one of those too.

He is a blessing because he always feeds the dog. Problem is the dog eats RAW which means the bowl needs to washed out each time she is fed. On top of that, the dog gets all sorts of vitamins, supplements, etc in her food because of unrelated health issues.

In our last place, DH would leave the bowl on a paper towel next to the sink as well as all of DD's vitamins, treats, etc. Drove me nuts, plus it meant I couldn't put stuff on that side of the sink.

My solution with my new kitchen? My prep sink is next to where DD's bowl and stuff is stored. I put a "garage" that lifts up to hide all of the dog's stuff. Yes DH still leaves it all out without closing the "garage", but now when I walk into the room, it's easy to shove everything inside and close the door.

DH also has a habit of making coffee with his Keurig and then leaving his spoon, the pods, and his sweetener packets on the counter. Drove me nuts! Plus he'd toast a bagel, and somehow all the crumbs would wind up on the counter.

Or he'd make himself a martini at night and leave the stirrer on the counter along with the shaker, etc.

My solution with the new kitchen? I included a tall cabinet with doors that closed and inside moveable shelves. He now can make his coffee, or his bagel, or have his drink, and he just closes the cabinet behind him. When I'm good and ready, I can go and clean up anything that might be attractive to bugs, although since I created the cabinet, he seems better at cleaning it up. Maybe because it's all his now?

As for dishes, I have a deep sink. They go in the sink until I'm ready to load the dishwasher.

Adding more places to mess up is never the solution for a messy partner. That’s fantasy that he will confine his messes to just where you want them to be confined.

you realize if you build yourself a mess kitchen, guests will follow you out of the pristine kitchen into the mess kitchen. just as they followed you out of the pristine living room into the regular kitchen. THEY WILL FOLLOW YOU WHEREVER YOU GO.

and then you'll have to feel bad that you have mess, and small appliances, in your mess kitchen. then what?

stop the madness. eat in the dining room where you cant see the mess (if you dont want to look at it). or you'll have to have a series of smaller and smaller pantries to set down used coffee cups. because, they will follow you.

following. I wanted a scullery, for storage, in our new build and now I'm rethinking this. Good discussion.

Well...IMO opinion this is an expensive and bad idea. My advice: save yourself, your house design, your budget, and your legs, and ditch this idea of two kitchens.

Good luck on your project.

What exactly does he leave out?

Pretty much anything that happens to be in his hands when he walks into the kitchen!!! I like some of your personal solutions, cpartist. I'm going to think on those a little and see if I can incorporate some of those ideas or something similar.

Found this article: [https://www.houzz.com.au/magazine/the-scullery-reinvented-for-modern-living-stsetivw-vs~49332416[(https://www.houzz.com.au/magazine/the-scullery-reinvented-for-modern-living-stsetivw-vs~49332416)

Vernahope, there is no significant difference between what you have on your plan and those from the article. If you read the comments, most think it's a great idea but none have so far lived with this arrangement.

Here's another idea to consider: how about you hire caterers or waiters when hosting a party? I'd probably turn out cheaper and more funcitonnal than building two kitchens.

Sculleries are great, specially for a grand house.

Your house is roughly 2200 s.f.

I wanted a scullery (smaller than yours) and decided to let it go - and my house will be 2,620 SF

It will make sense if all your spaces were reasonable sized and you had the extra space - but they are not. Your dining is just 7'-8" deep and some of your rooms are somewhat small. If you plan to use island stools, your great room useable space will be 11' and I know this because I measured it.

I have a walk in pantry with a sink, which I find very useful - but not for doing dishes. No way I'm spending time in that claustrophobic space when I've got a nice open kitchen right next to it.

Dirty dishes go into the dishwasher or get washed after every meal. We often have clutter on the counter, but it's all clean dishes. When guests come, the dishes used for prep are already in the dishwasher, and the rest go into it as the evening progresses, or end up hidden in the pantry, to emerge later after the guests have gone. Oh, and my dishwasher, which is a Miele, can barely be heard when it's on.

Walk in pantries have their uses (ours has the microwave and toaster, storage for the slow cooker, blender, etc, and for some foodstuff. Most importantly, it houses the wine fridge. ) But I wouldn't use one the way you're describing. Just my opinion, but one based on several years experience.

If you went to a single big kitchen (and flipped the island 90 degrees) you'd have a large, beautiful, bright space with windows on two sides. You could keep the main sink in what is now the back wall of the scullery, which also gives it some visual shield from the dining room, if that's important to you. Personally, while your scullery idea is cool, I wouldn't be willing to give up the awesome single kitchen that could go in that space, as well as the extra space it would give to the other rooms and for circulation.

Kristin's comment is the point I was trying to make in your other post (I didn't realize at that time you were going for a scullery type thing). This is just a quick example of how you could arrange the space (tons of island seating which may or may not be of interest to you!)

- Leaves space next to family foyer for coat hooks/shoe rack

- Dining room could possibly "bump back in" (so it's flush with living room wall)

Agree to make one awesome kitchen. Think through everything to make it easy for DH to put stuff away. Plan for a messy area like a drop zone so keys, wallets, etc don’t go on the island. Well placed sinks so one can cook while other is cleaning without getting in each other’s way. Beverage area for guests or kids to help themselves without getting in your way. Etc.

In your two kitchen plan, all the dirty dishes are ending up next to the island sink.

The “Butler’s pantry” has to be between the food production area and serving area to actually get used.

This phrase has been popping up -- incorrectly -- on this website lately; people are using it to mean "large pantry" or "walk in pantry". A real butler's pantry, as you say, is located between the kitchen and the dining room, and it's a "staging area". It's a place where a server can stash the extra bread basket or the dessert, and it's usually a storage area for good dishes.

Since pretty much no one actually has servers in a private home, people today tend to use butler's pantries as a place to set out drinks or dessert.

You have what I’d call a scullery. I have one and I love it.

Yes, scullery is a better word choice. I've also heard such spots called "dirty kitchens" or "spice kitchens" or "canning kitchens" ... while the outer portion is called the "pretty kitchen".

I don't really like the concept. Seems like what you want -- your favorite knife, your measuring spoons, whatever -- would always be in the wrong spot.

Seems like a lot of daily hassle for an occasional benefit.

Agreed.

Adding more places to mess up is never the solution for a messy partner. That’s fantasy that he will confine his messes to just where you want them to be confined.

Eh, I halfway agree. My husband is a terrible slob, and over 28 years I've created this-and-that method to try to get him to keep things cleaner. Some he embraces (like a place for car keys and the folders for receipts we need to keep for taxes), others he promises to use, then ignores (like all trash cans at all times and junk mail).

I think the key is to think though exactly what YOU want to happen, then consider HIS habits, and think about how you can make things work better ... without expecting miracles. CPArtist gave some good examples above.

Just reading this old thread and am curious what you ended up doing and how it worked out? :) I'm working on a kitchen layout for my new build and love your initial idea. :) Makes perfect sense to me to keep dirty dishes completely out of sight!

GET A SINKO AREA WITH POCKET DOORS IF YOU WANT TO HIDE DIRTY DISHES

OR A PULL DOWN COVER OVER THE SINK. ANOTHER IDEA? PUT THE LAUNDRY ROOM NEXT TO THE KITCHEN, HIDE THE WASHER AND DRYER EITHER IN A CABINET OR ACROSS FROM EACH OTHER WITH A WIDER WALL TO HIDE EACH SIDE--OR A WALL OF WIDE CABINETS AND PUT THEM NEXT TO EACH OTHER. THEN PUT A NICE SINK AREA THAT WILL DO DOUBLE DUTY WHEN YOU ENTERTAIN AND WANT TO HIDE DISHES. YOU CAN PUT AN EXTRA DISHWASHER IN THE LAUNDRY ROOM IF YOU WANT FOR CATERERS. The laundry room can be closed off so they are not in the entertaining area with you.

Thread is 3 years old and you've probably finished the build, but I just wanted to say the design is great. I hope you went with it! ("Family foyer" with counter space to the right is great for for drop offs, and the mess kitchen will work, although I hope you moved the dishwasher to right side of the sink so when it's open it doesn't block the path between the sink and the kitchen)

I'm working on a similar concept I refer to as the "dish room":

Hi @jordanbrennan728, We did finish building almost exactly as planned. We kept the dishwasher on the left, but moved it a little more to the left so there is a small cabinet between the dishwasher and sink. This makes the corner sink not awkward at all. This works perfectly for us as it’s not a high traffic area. Having the drop off area has kept the main kitchen counter clean and uncluttered, which I am thrilled about. Good luck with your project!