bpathome-oh-my, I am honestly not sure what needs to be done. I imagine there are lots of details that are left out of any posts about things like this. You just can’t convey months of behavior very well in this format.

I think very generally, I would say get any guns in the house out.

Do what is possible to secure your legal position. Make sure you have access to information about all accounts, mortgages, etc. and make sure there is some money you can draw on without the other person’s involvement. Better yet, have some cash. Get copies of wills and any other important documents.

Pack a bag of things you don’t want leave behind (special pictures, the family bible, whatever) and a few days worth of clothes. Stash it in your car if you can.

Do what is possible to get a full medical work up for the other person.

And yes, maybe leave. If you can’t get a medical work up. If the other person won’t cooperate in getting care. If things are getting worse. Or if you feel in danger at any time.

This is very far outside of my experience and expertise. Maybe a local women’s shelter would have advice for you? Or maybe a local legal aid society? Or your pastor? Or your doctor?

If it were my mom and I thought that my dad not getting treatment put her safety at risk...I would tell her to leave. Even after 40+ years of marriage. If he were in his right mind he’d want her to leave too. What do they say, the worst part about being mentally ill or brain injured is that the very organ we need to cure sometimes prevents us from seeking that cure.

My grandfather had several years of mild and then many years of severe dementia. In this case he wasn’t a danger to my (step)gma because the type of dementia (vascular) made him passive. But if he had been at all dangerous or violent we would have been the first to pack her up and get her out. We eventually persuaded her he needed full time nursing care in a special hospital. It was actually a relief and she could go back to being a wife and friend instead of a nurse and nag.

Please pay attention to all the above comments given to you. Something serious is going on with your DH. You don't need to diagnose it & I would spend no more time on that. Rather, act on his behavior to you. You are not in a safe situation...that's it. Please get somewhere safe & tell him why you're leaving. Advise your adult children also to not bring the children around him at this time. He obviously needs medical intervention & I hope that will happen, but for now take care of yourself & your family. Maybe if you do this, he will realize how seriously you're taking his behavior, & realize there is indeed a big problem. I wish you only the best....please listen to those here who feel your pain.

Sorry I didn't get back to you all yesterday, I'm in the process of reading the replies.

What I do know is he will not get help unless he is dragged in a straight jacket.

Shopping wrote, "You have to live in their world if they have Alzheimer's. Nothing is gained by disagreeing with them." Bingo. I'm trying really really hard.

April! DH is doing something similar to your grandma with TV. This began in 2014. Since his office is here, he spends some free time watching TV. He only watches old westerns, war movies, some sci-fi. And Billy Elliot. lol The thing is, he has watched all those movies about a 100 times each. How many times can one watch "Band of Brothers?"

That began when DS and his family moved in while their house was being built. DS1 and I were looking forward to the adults winding down in the LR watching TV together and talking about our day. DS1 is my twin. The first night we were in the LR, DH had control of the remote and put it on an old western. When he's watching TV, he will NOT talk at all. It was uncomfortable for the rest of us. We tried that for several days and we all went to the back of the house where our "apartments" (bedrooms) are, our TV's blaring, the kids playing, and we could go back and forth visiting each other, while DH sat and watched his westerns. The movie watching bothers both my sons.

Did I tell that story before? I don't want to scroll up and look. He's still doing it.

Running, without my "LOL's" I couldn't make it through life, so I disagree with that. If I don't find humor I couldn't make it.

A short story about humor during bad times. When I was in high school, my boyfriend, I wore his ring, was killed when a train hit his car. I was devastated. A guy friend took me to the funeral home to pay our respect. The two of us were standing in front of his casket and my friend whispered something to me, and I thought he said, "Have you ever touched a dead person?" I started laughing my a$$ off, and my friend looked at me like I was nuts, then he started laughing. That wasn't what he said to me. lol. But I found temporary humor and it felt great to laugh.

About me being sensitive in past topics, well, the only replies that hurt me are people who are just downright rude. One poster admitted to it above. Oh, I've done a lot of lighthearted topics too. Anyone can tell me the truth, but do so with class. Just because someone doesn't like me is no reason to come in and get nasty. I leave those topics because everyone here is afraid to call certain posters out for their rudeness. That hurts and I don't need it in my life so I leave the topic. Some come in there just to disagree on purpose. I have their number, but it's still hard.

That's all I'm going to say about that subject. I do appreciate the honesty and I agree with almost everyone about my situation.

DH really is good at his work though, wins his cases all the time, never a complaint about him. He's the smartest person I know. Even now if I have a question about anything, from the Bible to history to science to math, he is top notch. For some reason he doesn't forget knowledge.

I doubt it's from any medication, lack of vitamins, a tumor, etc. Only because this began over 4 years ago, when he stopped ALL medication around 2012-13. It was a slow progression and it was in 2015 when his moods changed.

He's never alone with the grandkids, I never question him or anything around them so as not to start an argument. He hasn't picked an argument with me in front of the kids since that one time, maybe because I know not to disagree with him around them. He loves fixing them lunch and is quite jolly.

What I need to do a 100%, and boy this is hard, is to "live in his world" as was said above.

Yesterday he was getting ready to go somewhere and couldn't find his keys. He left them in his suit which is normal, but before he found them he came to me and asked in a mildly accusatory tone, "Where is my truck key?" I don't drive his truck! I played along and made friendly suggestions until he found them. Normally I'd pop off which would lead to an argument.

You all have been a tremendous help to me. I can't reply to each of you, but I did read your suggestions and do agree with most.

What I'm going to do, but I have to find the right time, is talk to DS1 about this and tell him what you all said. I'm going to have him talk to his girlfriend who is in a great position to know more about this topic. I've read numerous times that CHF does cause mood disorders & depression, so that is probably half of it.

In the meantime, I am going to try to be Pollyanna. I hate confrontation and I will become defensive and pop off if DH or someone here becomes rudely accusatory towards me. I've gone through a lot of grief these past years, most were happy though, but I'm fragile. So I'm going to try with all my might not to disagree with him. It won't be too hard because he's a quiet person by nature.

I also want to add to the B-12 discussion as important -- after my foot and ankle swelling in Italy, the first thing my doctor did was check my B-12 levels because I have tingling in my big toes, on both feet. As a child, I had to get weekly shots of B-12 to get my levels up.

I also recall an aunt who temporarily went violent. She threatened people with scissors and knives. She had been so sweet and wonderful. Well, it was low B-12 levels and once corrected, she was back to normal.

Only a little off-topic, but:

In the average yearly blood tests for an adult with no particular health concerns, are B-12 levels checked?

Oakley - I do think discussing this with your son is critical and would encourage you to do so sooner rather than later. You really don't know what is causing your husband's behavior so I'm not sure picking an Alzheimer's disease strategy (ex: living in their world) is going to neccessarily work. I do think being non-confrontational is wise in the short-term until you have more answers.

You have described a number of behaviors that are serious red flags. It is not normal for a loved one to call you names, it is not normal for a loved one to accuse you of things, it is not normal for a loved one to throw anything at you. You know this. Please do not minimize what you and your family are experiencing. Share what you have written here and the advice your forum friends have offered with your son today. I can't get your situation off my mind and am wishing you all the best.

To clarify my earlier comment, Oakley, I meant that I am aware my words have previously been hurtful to you, not that I believe I have ever been rude to you. I am very direct and you and I obviously have different communication styles. That is not entirely germane to the topic of this thread, but I am compelled to say that I would not purposely inflict harm another human being, and I hold you and your difficult situation in my thoughts and prayers.

Graywings, I don't think B-12 is part of a normal blood panel and is usually checked when suspected symptoms present. B-12 comes from animal based foods, so most omnivores and especially men who eat meat, eggs, dairy tend to get enough B-12, so I don't think they test for it unless there are symptoms or reasons for concern.

Oakley, I called and talked to the assistant for my dad's doctor prior to scheduled appointment. She suggested I email the doctor to let him know about my concerns before we were there with my dad. We also had a phone call, and it really helped. The doctor and I had a better understanding and ability to deal with things even though it didn't change much for my dad. I think it would be helpful for you, even if it only helps set the stage for the next regular office visit. The doctor might be able to suggest some things or even have a reason to see him sooner (need to recheck a test --- they can try). Does he at least go in for regular checkups? Have you both gotten the new shingles vaccine? Maybe the doctor's office could call and say they are suggesting it.

I hope you are right that your DH is keeping his work up to par. If he is, it must be taking an immense strain on him to do so in light of the other things that are happening. But there will be a point at which he find it harder and harder and will lose some of his acuity. It was subtle with my dad and I think I noticed it more than most, but I saw the most. Even at that he hid things from me -- like a lawsuit over a minor fender bender in a parking lot. In years past, he would have taken the 90% the other insurance company offered and moved on. He fought and went to court. He never told me about the trial, but I know he got confused and lost on the way to the court (he called me to ask for help but didn't tell me why he was there) and I later saw the documents. He got far less -- he was winded and tired and I know he wasn't sharp. The defendant's attorney probably had no trouble making him sound confused or worse. There was a reason I never heard about it. The brighter they are, the better they are at hiding, rationalizing, coping and using that intellect to hang on and present a pretty face to the rest of the world. It makes it harder for you to get people to understand what you are seeing and telling them about.

In the average yearly blood tests for an adult with no particular health concerns, are B-12 levels checked?

No, lascatx is right about that. A normal person has about a five-year supply of B-12 in their liver, so even if they don't get any in their diet for a long time, they're okay. The problems mostly come when people lose the ability to metabolize it, or, sometimes, if you are vegan for a long time you are also more susceptible to problems.

So if you want it checked, you need to ask.

Being in a position eerily close to Oakley's, I'll just ask straight out: when you (and several of you do) say "do what you need to do", do you mean leave?

Bpathome - A couple of others have already chimed in eloquently, so I'll just say that when I said "do what you need to do", if the situation warrants it, then yes -- leaving is what I mean. No one was created to be abused (physically, emotionally, mentally, or otherwise) by another, even if the abuser is unaware of the damage they inflict.

Gathering the strength and courage to leave an abusive situation is incredibly difficult. I've heard it said so many times, "But you said 'til death do us part'", and my response to that is that there are other forms of death beyond the physical.

I am so sorry that you're struggling, and hope and pray you'll find peace in whatever choices you make.

For me this is not a question of leaving a marriage. It is a question of putting yourself out of harm's way. Nobody would divorce over a spouse being unwell. You have to approach this issue as a health one for both you and your spouse. The medical community are quite aware of the public health danger of domestic abuse. After your doctor, your next stop should be your lawyer to ensure you are financially safe from any rash decisions your spouse might make under the influence of what ails him. If you need to leave the house for a period of time in order to stay safe, then that is what needs to happen.

A little update. Today DS2 and I were able to have a long talk. He told me there have been times his dad has asked him the same question about 20 minutes apart. And there's been times DS2 would tell his dad what he was going to be doing the next morning, and when morning came, DH would ask what his plans are for the day.

The GP, the son of my NP, is my official doctor, but I prefer going to his mom, so technically I'm a patient of his. Monday I plan to send him a message through their website, and they always get back to me the same day, and ask him if what I tell him about DH is confidential and if it goes on his chart. If he okays it, then I'll spill my guts and see if he can do something on the sly at DH's next appt. He goes in every 3 months religiously. Same with his cardiologist.

I've figured out he's in a severe depression too, just by his behavior around the house. DS2 has noticed the same. DH needs to get back on an anti-depressant, asap, as the first step, IMO.

I'll keep you all informed and hopefully the GP can do something. I see the boys everyday so I'm in good hands.

((((((( Oakley )))))))

I'm so glad you have a plan, Oakley. And you are doing "what you have to do" the way I see it....So a step is a step in the right direction.

If you need to talk about depression, I make no secret about mine, so just reach out. Likewise my work experience with those with dementia and Alzheimers....

Oakley, You've been on my mind. I hope today you can get the ball rolling on some help from the doctors.

Having been in your situation there are two separate things that need to go on. 1. Try as much as you can to get them some help medically. 2. Try to detach yourself as much as you can from their sickness so it doesn't make you sick. All you can do is all you can do, and sometimes you have to just tell yourself, "I did my best and that's all I can do." It's hard to see a loved one suffer and not try to "fix it" but sometimes no matter what, you just can't. But you also have a right to your own peace and safety and health. A balancing act. I often have to assert my boundaries and my dad makes me feel guilty, but that is part of the sickness so don't get into that game of manipulation.

People who have heart/lung/kidney issues have a loss of energy. It takes a lot of energy to keep the brain functioning so they do start to slip up. That is not the same thing as Alzheimers. There's a whole spectrum of memory issues that play out in a wide variety of ways. It's difficult to get a "type A" person to slow down and pace themselves and give themselves breaks. They seem to have two speeds--steamrolling or total meltdown. At least that has been my experience. Half of my dad's problem is his own paranoia about his waning faculties, which really aren't waning to a dire degree, but since he feels he has to be superman all the time, he can't cope very well with aging. My cousin said the same thing about her mom, my dad's sister - she raged against aging, which often meant taking it out on family. Not everyone who is sick is a model of patience and acceptance. I learned that a long time ago.

Hopefully you can get some support and help from family and your husband's doctors!

I don't have any insight or experience, but I did want to say that I am so sorry you are going through this and that I hope you can get some help.

Pink, it does sound like we have shared a lot of similar experiences.

Oakley- I have experience with dementia as my DH, who is 59, was diagnosed a few years ago with something called Posterior Cortical Atrophy which is a variant form of Alzheimers. It took a good 5 years to get a solid diagnosis. I have found the message boards on https://www.alzconnected.org to be incredibly helpful.

As others have noted, there are many types of dementia and your mother's may have very well manifested in her frontal temporal lobes which would certainly cause extreme changes to her personality years before anything was detected.

https://memory.ucsf.edu/frontotemporal-dementia 

Oak- Please create an online account and post your situation with your DH on the ALZ board under the Spouse or Partner Caregiver Forum. Sounds bizarre and terrible, but your recollection of events are not unique in the dementia world. You will get support and advice there so you are able to make informed decisions about his care and the impact it is having on your life.

Oakley-I am certainly no expert but it does sound like your DH has some type of brain disroder. My dad had CHF and it caused vascular dementia. His personality didn't change nor did he become mean but he would say some very strange things. My mom has dementia and memory loss due to age and a fall with a head injury. She has become much more difficult and laughs weirdly at inappropriate times. One of my children has a mental illness and he did the same thing when he was not medicated. When our brains are not working correctly, all kinds of things can happen. I am thinking of you and am glad that you have a plan.

Midcentury, thank you for that link!

Just want to say I am so sorry you and your DH are experiencing this. Please take care of yourself first and him second! Will be thinking of you and hoping for the best possible outcome.

I haven't disappeared, I ran out of things to say. Here's an update.

Friday DH will have renal angioplasty. A stent was put in earlier this year and it's clogged, maybe it's bent, not sure.

DS1 is taking him, staying with him, and bringing him home. Unless DH has to spend the night, and there's a chance he might. DH didn't even tell me about the procedure until I saw it on his calendar the other day so I knew he'd have one of the boys take him. I'm glad because I don't want to go.

The heart hospital is where DS1's close girlfriend also works and she told DS1 to get questions from me and they'll ask the cardiologist together. His severe mood change, severe depression, and possible dementia will be brought up, along with medical stuff.

DS1 will tell the doctor about how the primary care doctor put him on Welbutrin last Christmas and that DH stopped taking it. DS is going to try to get the cardiologist to prescribe it again, hoping DH will obey this time since it came from the cardiologist.

This is a wait and see situation for now. Once the angioplasty starts working, which can take a week or so, I'll see if there's any change. It should give him lots of energy which should help his depression.

I'm pretty certain DH is at stage C heart failure, and stage D is the end stage. DS will ask the doctor to tell him what stage he's at because we need to be prepared. Apparently the more times you go back to the hospital after the initial visit, it's worse. This will be his 5th time in little over a year.

Down deep I think DH knows.

I'll be keeping you, your DH, and your sons in my thoughts, hoping that your DH can receive the best possible treatment, to keep him healthy for as long as possible.

Thinking of you, Oakley....I am so glad you have your son to help with all this.

My thoughts are with you. It is good that you have the support of your sons.

Oakley, thank you for the update. I will be thinking of you and your family in the days ahead. I hope the doctors can give you some answers and direction.

Thoughts and prayers are with you and yours, Oakley.

A lot of people who have a terminal illness are helped by anti-depressants. Contrary to what my dad thinks, it is not a "happy pill" but something that helps with quality of life so you can focus your last days on meaningful activities that you want or need to do, not be overwhelmed by anxiety or depression. I'm not sure its effect on your thinking, but my dad's thinking is so controlled by his anxiety that it muddles it up, something different I think than dementia. Indecision and paranoia and anger are not necessarily dementia. But again, it could be some dementia on top of that. My friend's mom has short term memory issues, and the anti-anxiety medications help her function better and sleep better. But these were prescribed by a neurologist, so really DH has to be honest with his doctors to get the best help . . .

Oakley, thank you for the update. You have been on my mind a lot since you first posted. I hope all goes well with your DH. Hang in there.

Good luck with all this, Oakley. You may benefit from grief counseling (it's not just for dealing with bereavement...)

Also...please do not anyone just stop taking anti-depressants. You think you can handle it, but you can't.

I had some success with Welbutrin, but he may need to try something different. A combination isn't unusual.

My very best. Just keep putting one foot in front of the other. And talk to someone you trust who can keep tabs on you...I often think it would be so great if we could hire a temporary "keeper" as we often can't look after ourselves well, when we're in charge of someone else. Like a Doula for adults :)

Make sure you have mental distractions...

Keeping you and your family in my thoughts.

Thanks for updating us. You have been in my thoughts. Prayers continue.

ML

Oakley, I'm glad you are getting support, help and a little break. Having been down a similar path with my dad, I suspect my dad was also stage 3 or C when I first heard he had CHF.

I don't really know how long he was there because he changed cardiologists after telling the first doctor he didn't need a stent and it was only done for his kids' university fund. My dad had a 98% blockage of the artery at the entry into his heart and probably survived what should have been a widow-maker the night before I took him in for the test and procedure -- he only told me about the heart attack symptoms while I was driving him home and he was still druggy. I saw that doctor with him again a couple of times and when my dad made that accusation, he was shown the films with the blockage. He then changed doctors and I never met or talked to the new doctor until after he passed. My recollection is that he was in the hospital maybe 3 or 4 times in a year or so -- all with pneumonia, before the final trip. It was still a shock when he called me and told me he was going into hospice. A month later he was gone.

Sounds like you are doing what you can. It takes some time and movement behind the scenes when the person doesn't involve others voluntarily. Stay strong.

Thank you for the support! Penny, I'd love to have my own keeper! It's hard having no extended family (my side) anymore, or in the state for that matter. Times like this is when I wish I had a sister.

Pink, I take an anti-depressant and it helps problems roll off my shoulders and not cry. DH was on them for about a week, so he didn't suffer any side effects from stopping.

Plus, if he's at stage 3, he possibly has a few years or more ahead. He's religious about taking his meds, except the Welbutrin. lol

Right now his memory is the least of his problems, heart first, then mood. From what I've read is that depression in men makes them extremely irritable.

I think it's a lot of things rolled into one. Thank God for my son's. :)

Yes, my dad takes all his meds very religiously, which is why it is difficult for me to label him as having serious cognitive impairment. But he did the same with anti-depressants, didn't take them and lied to his doctors that he was taking them. That is pretty serious. You can't fool around with those kinds of medications. So now he just refuses to even consider or discuss them. He's a real PITA, but I try to get him to keep his issues to himself if he is going to refuse treatment. That's where the detachment comes in. I know he is miserable, but if he isn't going to seek treatment for his condition, he is going to have to live with his misery. But that does not give him the right to make me miserable. I get that CHF is no fun and he is weak and that depresses him. But given that is the situation, I try to help him make the best of it. Obsessing about what you have lost is of no help to anyone or anything. I realize he can't help himself, but still, I have to be able to live my life with some sanity as well. A balancing act. I get it.

Oakley, I just wanted to pop in and share a tidbit that I wish someone had shared with me earlier. My dad had chf for many years. He was at stage 3 for a long time and his meds were just not doing the trick anymore. Fortunately, his cardiologist referred him to an advanced heart failure specialist. Long story short, the new doc “reset” my dad and implanted a cardioMems device. The purpose is to monitor the pressure in the pulmonary artery so that meds can be adjusted before fluid overload becomes a problem. It has been used with great success - reducing visits to the hospital and preserving quality of life. In hindsight, I wish we would have known about this specialist earlier. I just wanted to share my story with you - I wish you and your family the best, moving forward on this journey.

2pups thank you so much for that info! My dad has CHF. He had a pacemaker put in earlier this year (January). But a few weeks later he had a terrible time with fluid. It was awful. His poor toes looked like sausages! His legs swelled as far up as his groin. He is on new meds now and just recently they adjusted them (because they don't want him to lose more weight) and doing very well. But that cardioMems device is very interesting. I'm going to ask his cardiologist about it. My dad is 88 and he has no mental affects from CHF as far as I can tell. We are so blessed because he is apparently not like so many elderly people. He is a widower, but he is content. I'm sure he wishes things were different but he deals with thing. Thankful to be able to live in his home, see his children often, etc. I know there may come a time where he will have to leave his home, but for now I am so grateful. He rarely (and I mean RARELY) complains. He is so different from my MIL, who we have dealt with her health issues. She is in so much better shape physically than my dad, but her mental attitude is much worse. Kind of funny isn't it. Dad doesn't take an antidepressant. They are so often used, and should be for those who truly need them. On the other hand, I also think they are used too frequently for people who don't need them. They shouldn't be used as an "easy fix". Sorry to hijack, but again, thanks for this info.

tinam, depression is difficult. I don't think anyone who hasn't experienced it can even begin to understand.

I'm so glad your dad doesn't have to take them.

For a lot of us though, they work and we are alive because of them.

Tina, my dad didn’t have the implant for very long, but it was great during the time that he did. Before the implant (and the specialist) he was at the Dr.’s every 2 weeks and also had a few hospital stays to unload the fluid. He had chf for 14 years and just passed away in January. Fortunately he went quickly - laughing one moment and gone the next.

Oakley, I hope tomorrow brings you some answers and information. Keeping you & your DH in my thoughts.

I am so sorry you are going through this and hope that your connection here to all of us can help.

For some reason I had not come back to this until now. Oakley, I sincerely hope your DH has come through the angioplasty yesterday ok. I know you said it would take a week or so to see if he (and you) would see some difference in his moods and behavior. I hope and pray you will see a difference and will get answers to all your questions.

Let us know how things are going when you can. We care!

I too missed this! All the best and wishing quick healing for your DH. Hugs.

Has anyone heard from Oakley since her DH's procedure last week?

I've been thinking about her too. I always check to see if there have been any new posts.