It looks like mine. I use shredded pine bark and I sift the dust and 1/8 inch pieces and use the rest. I add 2 parts compost instead of petemoss and 1 part perlite 1/8 inch. I water when my pot is light in weight and top water when the top is dry down about an inch or 2. I have not checked roots but plan to move 2 of these trees in ground and I will see then. I don't know how to help your situation. If you are on C35 roots you are at risk

I initially used pine bark fines last year, and The stuff breaks down faster than you think and fines break off and go to the bottom. I checked dats on a tree that went bad and it only took 8 months my mix looked like yours. the reptibark chunks take a little longer - their also fir not pine a bit harder in density and I eliminated straight peat lately I used old soil that plants came in for the peat component. But I'd be amazed if you got a year out of the stuff exposed to the elements and naturally occurring bacteria, etc. Come fall I may pull each one and refresh the pot as needed using fresh mix at the bottom before the winter. Just another added expense

The mix will break down a little, and the bottom of the pots will be a bit wet anyway. Not sure how big your trees are, or how big the pots are. No citrus expert here, but we have a few growing in the ground. Maybe repot in fresh mix, and be careful with the water, which it seem like you are bring already. Any chance the were a bit root bound, and need to be potted up anyway?

The mix was very wet at the bottom half of the pot. The trees were 2 to 3 feet tall in 2 and 3 gallon pots. The roots that did reach the walls of the containers died but the trees were not root bound.

what is ballast

Vlad I found the same thing in the 511 and started a thread not long ago titled miracle grow garden soil experiment" about the same thing I think Alanna started such a thread as well titled "root rot and 511" or something you might want to read those theres some great information on them! However having said that, I'm pretty sure I made mine wrong and knowing a tendency I have to overwater I have now put them in smaller pots (just an inch all around the roots) and in clay. So far new growth on all ailing rotted rooted plants! Al knows what he's talking about as do many other experts here so hope you find some expert advice besides just my two cents. And no I didn't cut off all the old rotted roots when repotting perhaps I should have but they just fell off in clumps anyways. I just made new 511 and stuck whatever remaining roots there were in small clay containers with the new 511. Hope it helps good luck! :)

Not directly related with the 5 1 1 mix but the owner of the nursery I go to re-pots all his tree's in a mix of compost and sand. The potting mix drain fast. He waters all his container plants every single day during the spring, summer, and early fall. The plants always look healthy.

Vlad I wanted to mention Brian a very good grower here on this forum uses promix bx straight out of the bag, its mostly peat and very fine textured I'm not sure how his trees grow so huge and healthy I'm always amazed as you'd think it would hold too much water! I guess there's more than one way to skin a cat so to speak, if you know how to work with the different types of soil. You should look up some of his citrus tree pics :)

You know, we really should have a special thread on what kind of conditions we subject our trees too all year long. Not to change the subject, but I really think that those growing in much finer mixes, including sand, peat and compost are using greenhouses, orangery, or some type glass type setting, re pot frequently, and get plenty of sunlight light even in the winter which puts our trees at greater risk growing them inside under normal house conditions, under colder temps, and under very little natural light in plastic containers or over sized pots.

In regards to the 5:1:1 mix, as I have pointed out many times before over looked by many that are having this issue, Al said it right on point.

" It might be that you have a very large fraction of big bark chunks and most of your peat is making its way to the lower reaches of the soil column."

There are many factors that cause this, and it's up to us to figure out why it's happening. As a majority, including myself, I no longer have this issue. In those threads that Jan so kindly pointed out, are many ideas on how to prevent this issue.

You will get it some day and really find the 5.1.1 mix a blessing for less than ideal conditions, especially during the winter months.

Stuart, I have a feeling that he has the luck of lots of sunlight, warmer temps all year long, and probably using the perfect sized pot or his pots are root filled from such good light that allows him to use that kind of mix preventing rot. Most of us don't have that on our side but I wish we did)

Mike

Poncirusguy - More about ballast.

Al

Mike I totally agree I know Brian gets 6 hours of sun in his greenhouse on sunny days! It'll be interesting to grow in a low light greenhouse this year ill update in a different thread this winter in case someone has the same north facing greenhouse as I do :)

Al, thank you for your postings. I agree that the problem may be overwatering but, as I have mentioned above, I have been light on my watering, with most of it being done by the rain. As for particle size, I sift the mulch through a 1/2 inch screen (see photo above), so most particles are dust to less than 1/2 inch which, I believe you said in one of your postings is OK. And I measure all 5-1-1 ingredients exactly.

Could you provide some guidance as to the size of ballast to use?

Vlad

Ballast can be anything inert (that isn't phytotoxic) that takes up space in the area of the pot that would normally be occupied by perched water at container capacity. Container capacity is a measure of water retention at the point in time where the soil has just stopped draining passively.

If you had a 10 x 10 pot and are using a soil that supports 6" of perched water, you have 600 cu in of soil that's completely saturated at container capacity. add 2 - 9 x 9 x 3 bricks to the bottom and you only have 108 cu in that can support perched water. The key to using ballast is making sure there is a continuous soil column from the main volume of soil to the bottom of the pot. This very small column provides the pathway by which the water moves downward. Note D compared to A:

Al

this is how I remove water beyond tipping. I also oxygenate every day all winter this way

New Zealand lemonade on US897 rootstock. · More Info

It could be there is a lot of "dust" in your mulch (?). I have the dubious honor of being the only one who has ever returned bags of mulch to my local garden center because there was too much dust in them. Perhaps you could bug screen a sample and try to figure out how much dust is in there.

Did you see any critters in there? I once found some sort of very small white worms in one of my JM's in gritty mix. They weren't living off the Turface or granite, so I assumed they were eating the pine bark.

I have been using 5-1-1 for close to 10 years now and have not had this problem, Hope we can help you figure this one out!

A bit of history of the 8 plants that you are talking about may help shed more light on the problem. Were they all thriving/growing during this period more or less equally? Perhaps not. May be you noticed some changes during this period.

I have lost plants and in each case I can point to an earlier problem. Here are some examples.

Up-potting a plant in a hurry without properly taking care of existing root problems/congestions hoping I will correct it soon. I sometimes forget to follow up in time.

Sometimes a plant goes through a period of stress. In my case often it is lack of water. The stress could as well be over-watering especially during winter. Eventually the plant survives but it has now a mass of dead roots. Means it should really be bare-rooted soon and potted.

Sometimes in larger pots I have noticed the inner core completely dry. Most likely either because of improper watering or something preventing water to reach the core. This something could be dense surface roots or large basal flare. When a plant suddenly needs frequent watering I know something is wrong in the root zone. I start dunking the plant in tubs. If it fixes it then I have confirmed the problem, if it does not there must be a bigger problem.

You could always increase the amount of perlite in your mix. The adaptability of the mix is one of its many strengths.

Josh

Tropic, some of the trees showed no signs of illness while others started a slow decline over a month ago. All of them were purchased at about the same time, bare rooted and put into 5-1-1 and, as best as I can recall, all did well immediately thereafter.

Al, is there a rule of thumb for the ratio of ballast volume to (soil mix + ballast) volume?

mblan13, you may be right but I don't know how much dust is "too much". No i have not seen any bugs.

Josh, thanks for your suggestion re increasing Perlite. What about not adding any peat moss instead? Is the purpose of the peat moss only to increase water retention?

Steve, thanks for reminding me of your method.

When you use ballast, you should increase the size of the pot you think you need by the volume of soil that would hold perched water if you didn't use ballast. So, if you estimate you need 5 gallons of soil, and you add 1 gallon of ballast to the bottom of the pot, you need at least a 6 gallon pot. Eliminating perched water via ballast allows you to use VERY large pots w/o having to pay the soggy soil tax you would otherwise pay in the form of lost potential or sick plants.

The ideal formula would be to use slightly less ballast (by volume) than there is soil that holds perched water. That unbroken soil column that links the pot bottom to the soil above the ballast is critical because it serves as the pathway by which water exits the soil above the ballast.

Al

Hey Al, Ive used the rayon wick method in a few small pots, and it seems to be working so far. Would you recommend ballast over the wick method? Is it much more efficient? Thanks.

You can reduce the o/a volume of PW held more effectively with ballast than with a wick, but ballast is a lot more hassle.

Al

Some of the things I have used have been soda cans, plastic drinking cups what ever size I want turned upside down, half a brick, plastic small nip bottles, you name it, plenty to imagine..

Vladimir, the peat acts as a binding agent, as well, making for more consistent moisture absorption between particles, and thus more consistent wetting and drying. I actually prefer to use a quality potting mix, such as Ocean Forest, in the place of the peat. Also, I've only ever used uncomposted fir bark as the base of my mixes.

Josh

Vladimir: Thanks for clarifying. I am trying to eliminate possibilities. From other threads I know you have many citrus plants. I think more than 60 if I am not wrong. So I am assuming that your other citrus are not in 511 and that they are doing rather well compared to the 8 plants you mentioned. Are these the only plants in 511 or is there is some fundamental difference between the others and specifically these 8 plants?

Also some pictures of the root balls of problematic cases may also be helpful.

Tropic, I do have about 60 trees. I don't have any other problematic cases but all other trees are either in gritty (13 of them) or have been in 5-1-1 for 1 year or less. I pulled one out of the pot that has been in 5-1-1 the longest ( 14 months) and the roots and mix looked fine. I could not take a photo because the root ball started to fall apart in my hands and I was afraid I might damage the roots with additional handling.

I sample each bag of PBF and measure the ratio of each size particle. Not that I have an idea what is good/bad, but at least I know what went in. I thought we were supposed to screen out the dust? I did that at first but later discontinued. My guess is that you had too much dust?

What about pot shape? We're they too large ? Even tho that is supposed to be less problematic in the 511. Also, do you press down firmly when you repot? (I do not). But again, probably not an issue for properly made 511.

I just started using 511 last year, and have yet to check/repot any of those plants. I have been putting it off because I have no idea how to root prune. I have a kumquat that will need some attention soon, it has just started to look bad.

Al's directions are dust to 3/8 inch, so no, I did not screen out the dust. They were 2 year old trees in 2 gallon pots. I press down but not very firmly.

Are the plants in the Agway pine bark? Agways stuff seem pretty consistent and generally have a decent distribution from dust to the larger sizes. So a 511 made from that without additional screening and modification should work well. But 4 out of 8 failures is significant. I have not encountered that myself for a pretty wide range of proportions of components for 511.

All I can say is that something caused the roots to die and subsequently rot. Improper/inconsistent watering can be the culprit. Especially during the winter.

I press the soil around the roots pretty firmly. I want everything in their to be in firm contact with each other and the roots. Proper root pruning is essential part of this too. As I have said before I also almost always tie the plant to the pot pretty firmly. So much so that I can lift the pot holding the plant. I test this every time I repot unless of course the pot is very heavy or the plant is too fragile.

Yes, I use Agway pine bark. I press the soil firmly but not with a huge amount of pressure. I root prune circling, J roots, etc. I do not tie down the root ball.

No expert on citrus, but we do have a few in the ground. At first glance 2 year old trees in 2 gallon pots, seems like small pots. Since citrus are usually grafted, not exactly sure what you mean by 2 year old trees. Maybe you could post a few pics of the trees/roots/pots.

Vladimir

What rootstock are your trees on

Rootstock table

Check for wet, Phytophthoria, salt, PH, and drought problems with your rootstock.

I did say drought because citrus trees in pots get dry spots that kill roots readily if they are sensitive to drought.

Read the chart and choose your rootstock carefully then stat to wonder where on earth do you find your tree on that rootstock. Let us all know after you find it.

Steve

I hope I'm not going off-topic. I grow all sorts of plants in 5:1:1. Trees, shrubs, perennials, begonias, impatiens etc.

The only plant that does poorly is Heuchera. Can't figure it out. I'm wondering if Vlad's suggestion of half compost and half sand might be a solution.

Al, please weigh in.

I've tried out the ballast method with my very first citrus and it worked very well last fall into winter then spring. Not sure if anyone remembers my Meyer's story but my Meyer came to me with a badly propagated root system from RBF and was always on the edge of declining health but it still managed to grow an impressive root system throughout winter with the ballast I provided in the pot.

The tree only had 5 leaves provided with one LED grow light the whole winter season but still managed to grow nice roots in such poor health! I used a half quart plastic takeout container as my ballast. My poor tree is gone now but it serves as a wonderful reminder of what worked and didn't work (ie. ballast worked).

Vlad it is possible the dust caused the bottom half to be too soaked for too long. I know you mentioned that Al's recipe uses the dust but I've looked into many different recipes and opinions on the 511 recipe on gardenweb to see how it fared with other growers. There was a very interesting thread where someone talked about a threshold for particle size and the maximum percentage allowed before becoming a real issue in container mixes. I've been trying to find if I saved or bookmarked it but haven't located it yet so I'll be looking through my phone photos for screenshots. I know for sure I saved it because I liked how he provided numbers for the quantities of each respective media and/or particle size. When I find it I'll make sure to post the photos or link.

This year I've also noticed a huge difference in the way I water and how it effects the smaller particles like peat. Last year I had just started the gardening hobby so I didn't have any watering cans or wands. I just watered with a decades old leaking spray nozzle from the hose or using an empty water bottle as my watering device. I would drip water through the cap of the bottle very slowly and at the time with just 1 citrus tree, I had the patience for it. This spring I've added some blueberry plants, about 20 citrus seedlings from seed, and my 3 trees from Stan so I purchased a watering wand to make it quicker and easier. But! I stopped using it because I noticed that it provides such a large amount of water in such a short amount of time that it created a type of flash flood effect in my containers. So much water would pool and stay above the mix and pull alot of the peat down when it sank down leaving a layer of bare perlite on the surface. This was drastically different from my extremely slow water bottle method. My water bottle method acted more like drip irrigation and did very little to disturb the surface or stratify the container mix. I really feel that most people will have problems with peat or dust sized particles settling to the bottom of the container if your collection is large enough to require a watering wand or can. I think I'll be going back to poking holes into the caps of empty water bottles and letting that drip irrigate my citrus lol

Steve: good point on the rootstock. It occurred to me too except I forgot to ask. I am not knowledgeable about different rootstocks and their properties but have read here in the forum about interesting differences between them.

Kyle: I guess you mean Coral bells. I have two varieties in soil here but do not know which ones. One is a regular red variety. These guys will grow almost anywhere in ground and in cracks in driveway too. I would have thought they like dry conditions better. But may be some cultivated varieties may be not as tough.

I'm an in/out guy all in pots in fresh mixes this spring and have noticed breakdowns in relatively short times using 5-1-1 in the past, although I've switched over to reptibark - less trouble denser wood than pine and no tiny particles, come fall I'm going to pull a few fruit or not, and pull bottom material which would be fine to reuse as a 5-1-1 or so blend in lieu of peat elsewhere, and use fresh uncomposted blend to match on bottom of pot, gravity will do the rest

Steve and Tropic, none of the sources (Four Winds, Record Buck, Logees) from which I received the trees provide information about the rootstocks. One tree, a key lime, I grew from seed.

Kvetch, I would love it if you could find the info about dust in 5-1-1.

Vladimir exactly right. I'm afraid I'll never know what mines are either. Fir us it's a matter of luck if we get good ones ). Enjoy your day today

wry useful info everyone. Thanks

Mike. My comment on choosing the correct rootstock from the chart next time is strictly a joke. None of us have any choice most of the time.

Steve

Steve. You crack me up. Keep me on my toes too. Love you bud

vladimir. I wouldn't mind sending you a package of what I use to get a close up for a potted plant and on Top of that a surprise plant. Since we live in the same state let me know and I will )

Mike

Hi. Tropic. You're right. The first pic is of one that came up between two border rocks last year. I don't know the parentage. The second pic is Brownies seedlings that volunteered in a pea gravel path near the parent

I'm just having a hard time with Heucheras in pots this year.

Mike, I'll take you up on your generous offer. PM me, please.

Vladimir, will do. I will be putting a batch together soon to do more re pots and I will not forget you.