Mightyanvil, Thank you for the contract breakdowns, I really appreciate that. That is definately part of what I was looking for, ways to create a win/win for us and our eventual builder. We have someone we are interested in using but have not talked specific contracts yet. There seems to be some perception that 1. I am not interested in quality and 2. that I don't realize the potential costs of quality and the unforseen. I appreciate that you are trying to warn me -thanks. I do understand these things and am trying to be prepared for them. What I was trying to get at is that somewhere out there there is a good contractor who will look at a project and take into account our site, our materials choices, our plan, etc. and come up with a bid or projected budget and a price to build our home based on all those things plus whatever he/she needs to make it work, do the job and continue to run a business successfully. Fine with that. There is also someone out there who will do all the same things and will take opportunities to increase the profit he/she takes from the job without offering any additional quality or service to the owners. My whole point is that from my point of view the second scenario is not okay with me and I was wondering what others had done and how they felt about their experiences. I would like to guard against scenario #2 if I possibly can. I know if I choose more expensive materials I will also have to increase the labor portion because it will take more skill from the tradesperson required to do the job. We do want a well built home and know that we will have to make choices and potentially sacrifices to get the things that matter most to us. When I was projecting our budget I took the averages from about 5 different sources of information and then depending on my ability to verify how that would apply to the home we are building I would either use the highest number if I didn't know or the amount that seemed to fit best with our project. There were some items that I was able to verify by actually going out and getting real numbers others by saying 'we are building a home next year it will be (description)if I am looking for 'x' and I budget 'y' is that reasonable? In the 'unknown' areas I spoke to a friend who owns his own concrete flatwork company, he has built several of his own homes. One of his sites was in our neighborhood and similar to ours, so in my basic labor and materials budget I took the amount he paid for excavation and tripled it for safety. I compared that to the prices others have paid in 'hairy situations' and my number was always the highest. We have already dug some on the property as we put in the septic and the excavator at that time did not feel we would have a problem *from what he could see and had experienced on our site* digging the hole for the house. I took the highest foundation cost and added 50%. We have city water, septic is in and we have electrical ready to go. This home will replace a manufactured home so our permits are inexpensive-about 1/3 of what it would be otherwise. When I got my budget together I looked at the overall total and added 10% to the entire thing. I did find that some numbers varied more than others and were harder to pin down. Other times the same number kept popping up so I felt I must be close and the 10% on top of that should cover it. I actually showed this budget and the plan to the builder we are considering and she gave me the feedback that most of my numbers are 'conservative'- in her terms which meant 'high' and we should be fine. Even if our budget goes over another 10% from that we are ok -including the fee amounts she quoted us for her services. At the time the plan we had been considering was built as a spec house nearby and we had gone through it several times. When I contacted the builder I explained that we really liked his house and were considering building that home ourselves. We shared with him information about our property and our time frame and we talked about the finishes in the house and the different things he was including. When he gave me the price for the home as built but on our site it was about 16% higher than our highest number and it did not include everything. Based on comments some have made, maybe it was still a 'fair' number but then again maybe not...in our county you can look up valuations on permits and the price he quoted for house only was $100k over that amount and it was $200k over what he told the county his cost was. In talking with my concrete contractor friend who has built his own homes he told me that builders usually underestimate their expenses for the county but that the county gets very close and they include approximately a 10% 'contractor markup' in their valuation. Enter builder #3, nice guy, only builds turnkey, fixed price. Not sure why he was interested in us as we were very up front that we did not think we would go that way. He was trying to convince us why we should I think. He was very helpful and actually wanted to see our site. He has just finished carving half a hillside out for a huge custom home which we toured so he knows about 'hairy excavation' and he looked at our site and said it was about average for our area and he didn't see a problem. Famous last words I know... anyway he ballparked a price about 10% less than the higher guy and about 9% above our 'cost plus' budget. This makes sense as he does need that 'coverage' in there, but...we had already added that to our numbers so...either we are still way off or...make of it all what you will. The highest number is out of our budget, the middle number is doable and the low number means new furniture, nice landscape etc. Guess which one I am planning on? Guess which one I am HOPING for?! :) So perhaps some will say this all bears no relevance to an actual project and maybe it doesn't. I am not trying to control every aspect, just educate myself and be prepard so that hopefully we make a good choice when we do finally sign that contract. I just wanted to know what everyone else was thinking about builders, pricing and contracts and how to best go about building a home for a 'fair' price. We are committed to building a house, it will be interesting to see what it will actually cost. Thanks all.

I never sign contracts that contain the clause "neither party is the drafter," because should you end up in court you lose the protection of differences of interpretation being construed in favor of the non-drafter. And I have never had anyone refuse to strike that clause from their contract. So I would say it's common that people try to put it in. But that doesn't mean you should accept it, unless it truly is a contract whose details were jointly negotiated. And it doesn't matter if 100 people have signed the same contract without making changes (and probably without reading it). That doesn't mean you should or have to do the same. You can ask for changes in a contract in a way that doesn't make the relationship adversarial. If I presented a contract to a customer and they said "There are some terms I'm not comfortable signing," I'd inquire as to their concerns and we'd work out language that addressed their concerns but still gave me protection. That rarely happens, but then my contracts are not written to be one-sided out of the gate. You could take the same approach. So what would I do if it were me? Hmmm, I'd probably sit down with the salesman and say, "Your price and timeline are reasonable, and I'd like to hire you guys, but there are a few things in your contract that cause me concern. As long as the right flooring arrives, it's installed correctly, and there are no problems, it doesn't much matter what the contract says. But I know that sometimes problems happen, and the contract protects both of us by clarifying what we do, who's responsible for what, etc. You've given me verbal reassurances that you're reasonable, but it makes me uncomfortable that you won't document those." Then go through each issue that causes you concern. Talk through verbally what will happen, in detail, say "perfect, that sounds very reasonable," (showing that you're not just trying to cause trouble) then pull out the contract and say, "this contract says something different than what you and I are agreeing is reasonable if we have problem X. Does it make sense to have something different in writing than we actually agree to?" Also, recognize that the salesman might be resistant to changing the contract because the company doesn't have any process to do so, and none of his customers have ever requested it. They probably just have a contract a lawyer wrote up for them way back when, and they don't even understand it. So you're smarter than he is on the contract front, and rather than admit that and say "let me check on that" he's just stonewalling you. If this is the case, you might get further by saying, "hey, you probably don't get many customers asking for changes in contracts, and it's probably a bit much to be asking you to play lawyer. Is there someone back at the office that you could take my proposed changes to, to get approval? You could offer to hand-write and initial the changes for him to take back for review. Can you call the office and appeal to the manager/owner (if a small company)? They're likely a bit more savvy about legal matters. If your attempts to be reasonable, cooperative, and helpful meet with continued resistance, then I'd probably not do business with them. To me, not working to address a potential customer's concerns--especially when they're valid, not just nitpicky--is a red flag about the future working relationship. What's $1500-2000 as a percentage of the whole job? What kind of flooring is this, btw?

"Are GC's hesitant to give firm numbers for remodels? I understand that unlike building a new home, remodeling projects can have surprises discovered after demo, but would a 15-30% contingency cover us in such cases?" As a GC, I'll step in. Depends on the GC and how well they research the job prior. When I first started in this business, I felt pressure from customers to hurry and a get a number. That usually led to overlooking major problems, or not giving ourselves enough of a margin for an 'oops' factor. We learned the hard way and had a few very patient customers allow us the time to fix mistakes. As a contractor, I'd make sure the timeline penalties allowed for extra time incurred due to change orders or unforeseen circumstances. That being said, at this point I am done trying to please people who are completely focused on price with unrealistic expectations of what they can get done. So think that, yes, all contractors are scared to death of having a major setback during a job set them back, but those who learn from their mistakes, learn through experience what things can go wrong when, what to look for ahead of time and plan/price accordingly. We stick to our budgeted contract amounts, excluding change orders. I think its a part of doing good business. If we screw up or something doesn't go as planned, we fix it at our expense. Poorly capitalized businesses fail everyday because they cannot afford to fix their errors or better yet, avoid them. I have a problem with someone mentioning a change order over $500. I always put in my contracts that change orders will come with anything and a 50% deposit with a signed agreement is required for anything over $100.00. Change orders can kill a job if all parties involved aren't watching the total dollar amount. If we cannot continue the project because an issue has come up (structural for instance) that has arisen due to existing conditions, we will not continue the project until the customer is given notice, a decision made and either approval or sign-off of a change occurs. I'd suggest making sure also that all installed fixtures are spelled out in the contract in detail. Also, who is responsible for purchasing what and during what phase should also be spelled out.

You're sending out red flags all over the place here. Joe is right, you haven't been spanked enough to get away from searching for the cheap route out of your situation. Stop searching for the low price hacks and find a real contractor. And pay him. No one who is worth hiring will step into someone else's half done mystery hack without charging a premium. You touch it, you own it. No smart contractor wants that added responsibility without the additional compensation that goes along with the additional risk. Pay that additional amount. Or let another month go by with a half done project staring you in the face. Or learn to DIY and have a year go by before it's done.