buying a rehabbed house, dishwasher and gas range need to switch posit

5 years ago

Trying to understand what you guys think and if it’s possible to be done without a big hassle. The seller is the rehabber and we are in inspection contingency so wondering if I can have him do it?

Featured Answer

Fori

5 years ago

On the topic of kitchens, I think the DW is probably in a perfectly fine location.

(I think the garage is also perfectly fine--I had a house built in the 1920s with a garage stuck in the basement. It's a great use of slightly hilly terrain.)

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Comments (102)

chocolatebunny123
5 years ago
I'm guessing one of two things is going on with this house. 1) the house is old and obviously didn't have a dishwasher to begin with so one was added the only place where it could fit; or 2) the house was a flip and the flipper knew it wouldn't sell without one so one was added. Given the decor, it looks more like that of a flip that someone that remodeled for themselves. I'd proceed cautiously.
HKO HKO
5 years ago
So you know he didn’t touch most of the big ticket systems stuff (roof, old windows that depending on location might cost you a fortune on heating, HVAC). Doubtful all the electric is new, he probably just did the rooms he needed to for permits, like kitchen. Did he upgrade the panel or is it still 100 amp? That would be another red flag. And all of those are things you will have to address sooner or later. So you’re basically buying the house for his cosmetic updates. Some of which you have major issues with. Doesn’t seem wise. And as far as new construction....go read the thread right now about the high end custom house that’s 3 months old with beams pulling away from ceilings..... new construction is no guarantee. My old law firm had a construction law practice and the lawyers told me their rule of thumb was never buy flips or anything newer than 10 yrs old, as that’s when all the defects will have manifested. If I were you I’d wait for the inspection reports, look at the permits (including all the inspections—what were the issues he was being written up on?) and then then think pretty seriously about walking away.
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A A
Original Author
5 years ago
The rehabber who is also the agent, bought this house aug 2017 obviously with an intention to flip it. I have searched extensively but cannot find the last year’s listing or photos. I don’t know if it was a private sale or something.

My realtor said he bought it from an elderly lady and based on the county website that matches up. My realtor is saying the rehabber is reputed and has pulled all permits.
wiscokid
5 years ago
You should check with the county/city as well, sounds like your realtor is anxious to get their buyer's agent fees.
A A
Original Author
5 years ago
Can I just call the county and ask for all permits, violations and licenses? Is this information publicly available to anyone?

If not, what is typically the prices to acquire this information from them?

My realtor is saying the city this house is in, happens to be very stringent regarding codes so it’s not easy for the rehabber to get permits if it’s not up to code.
ksc36
5 years ago
It should be. Simply call the building dept. and ask.
wiscokid
5 years ago
Many municipalities have online searchable databases as well.
Buehl
5 years ago
"...the thing that needs to be near by is the garbage pullout, as much or more than the sink."

Actually, you use the trash pullout much more and for a longer period of time while prepping and cooking than cleaning up - both trash & recycling. So, put the primary (or only) trash pullout in the Prep Zone.

In most cases there is only one sink in a kitchen, so the Prep Zone is on the opposite side of the sink from the DW, so it makes perfect sense to do as Qam999 said.

However, if you have a second sink with the Primary Prep Zone elsewhere - put the trash pullout in the Primary Prep Zone, not the Cleanup Zone. You can always put a second pullout (could be smaller) next to the Cleanup Sink or put one under the sink. [FYI...I made the mistake of putting my trash pullout next to the my cleanup sink (on the side opposite the DW) and not in my Primary Prep Zone across a 6' aisle (with a prep sink) -- it is, by far, my biggest regret in my Kitchen!]
Buehl
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
You might also talk to the neighbors...they may know the true history of the home, including whether there were any known issues.
lafdr
5 years ago
Not everyone wants a house in need of rehab and work. I hate the stress of living in a house that is having major work done. If the house is overall a good fit for you, and you have it inspected, I would rather buy a flip and just live in it than buy a fixer upper. Know yourself and ignore advice that doesn't apply to your situation. Even a brand new home can and often does have issues that emerge over time.
A A
Original Author
5 years ago
Lafdr, thank you! We are really not in a situation where we can buy a fixer upper and rehab it. We both work full time, have young kids, so time is a precious resource. We really have zero knowledge about all things building or house related and would be at risk for being taken for a ride by contractors.

Also, we would have to raise liquid cash or arrange finances, we don’t have disposable 50k lying around. But more than money, it’s the planning, dealing with contractors that we have no time for at this stage in our lives. We are not diy by any stretch of the imagination. We are clueless when it comes to house projects.

Yet we can live with a not so updated house. We are currently living in a house like that for last 5 years!
A A
Original Author
5 years ago
I could not find old listing. But I found pics from a listing 2 houses down on that street that sold last year. The layout looks similar and here are kitchen pics from that other house. This should give some idea how the original kitchen layout was.
kazmom
5 years ago
Your realtor has access to pictures from older MLS listings that you can’t just find online. They only store them so long, but if it was on the market in the last 2-5 years they may be able to pull them. Mine got me pictures from an older listing for a house I knew was going on the market but hadn’t been listed yet.
User
5 years ago
In every jurisdiction where I have practiced, all permits and drawings were public record and newer information was sometimes online. If it isn't online you must go to the office and ask for the file by address then sit nearby and look through it. You can photograph the important records or ask for a copy.

If he didn't get required permits you might be able to walk. Your inspector can tell if the plumbing is correct.
wiscokid
5 years ago
No one is saying you can’t get an updated house. Just be wary of flips because they can have concealed major issues or shoddy workmanship (even though it looks shiny and new)
HKO HKO
5 years ago
If you are buying a house with single pane windows, an old roof, and a 100 amp electrical panel, you are very much buying a “not very updated house.” From what you’ve described so far, you’re only getting updated cosmetics and (likely) partial electric and plumbing. For example, did he insulate the attic or is it original low R value stuff from the 50s? If the latter, look forward to more heating/cooling costs or $$ updating. And by the way, if he painted the old windows you can look forward to maintaining that in a few years as opposed to modern windows factory finished exteriors with much lower maintenance. You can get taken for a ride by a flipper as much as you can by contractors. And if you don’t like dealing with contractors how are you going to handle stuff like HVAC, roof, and other issues he didn’t address down the road?
Lyndee Lee
5 years ago
If the permits are there and the inspection doesn't show issues, don't get scared off because the house is not perfect. No house is perfect, even the one you design and have custom built, with the price tag to match. It is a large lot with mature landscaping and that would be a big positive for me. I also like the three car garage...is that a common feature in your price range?

I would look carefully at the deck and third car garage area as I suspect that was a later addition to the house. If that is original, it is quite unusual for a house built in the 60s.
A A
Original Author
5 years ago
Hi Lyndee, yes it’s a nice location on a cul/de-sac, 1 mile from a park. I looked up the country records and the 3 car garage is not a new addition. It’s been like that. I would not say it’s common to have 3 car garages, newer houses are more likely here to have them.
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Anglophilia
5 years ago
I’ve lived in a house with a basement garage for 34 years. My parents lived in one for 8 years. DD and family have lived in one for 19 years. I suppose if one ran the car with the garage door down, one would smell exhaust - might ultimately become ill, evrn die. But common sense dictates that one open the garage door before starting the car, and then pulling out into the driveway. Sitting in a garage with the motor running is not a great idea regardless of the garage location.

i can’t speak of house inspections in any area other than my own, but the foundation, roof, electrical panel are absolutely inspected in my area.

A plumber and electrician can advise you about switching the locations of the appliances and you and your husband should be able to tell if the cabinets are separate boxes or RTA.
lyfia
5 years ago
It is unlikely you'll be able to switch the appliances without a lot of work. Stove generally is 30 inches wide and dishwasher only 24 inches. So you would need to move cabinets around if possible or buy new ones to fill the gaps. Also you will likely need new counters as I'm guessing it would be hard to match them up by just cutting and patching a piece where the stove was. So consider at least a half kitchen remodel to switch things around. I'm not sure what area uppity are in, but in mine it would range 7.5-10K to do.
bpath
5 years ago
Garage: we had a tuck-under like that in a split-level. Never, ever an issue. Couldn't smell anything, couldn't really hear or feel the garage door.

The stairs between kitchen, dining,and living, are actually good. You have a fairly open floor plan, but you don't see the kitchen mess from the dining room.

The dishwasher location is not a problem. The range, though, with sparse counterspace on either side, is a problem. Just be prepared to redo the kitchen.
User
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
CO is odorless, colorless, tasteless and deadly. A CO detector should be required in each bedroom above a garage. If not add them. Some motors with keyless ignition are quiet and easy to leave running. The danger is when you are sleeping, not when you start the car.

It is also essential to seal the bottom of the floor above a garage with spray foam insulation.
Janet
5 years ago
My daughters house has an attached garage, not under the house, and you could smell exhaust in my grandson’s second floor bedroom when they moved in. It was built in the 60’s. There were structural flaws that had to be fixed. Yet someone else lived with it for 50 years. It’s something to be aware of and take caution with.
User
5 years ago
Keyless ignitions have allowed 28 people to die from leaving their cars running in their garages since 2006. 45 lived. The precautions necessary are CO detectors and sealed garage ceilings. CO will make you sleepy not wake you up.
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Anglophilia
5 years ago
My car makes quite a racket if I open the car door without having first turned off the ignition. Yes, these things can happen and do - they do with any attached garage. In fact, I know an older couple who had been out to dinner, came home closed the garage door, and apparently didn't realize the car was still running. They went to bed and were found dead the next morning by their housekeeper. The garage was at the other end of the house from the garage - house was 1 story.

But people also are killed when they fall while going to the bathroom in the night. I'm not afraid to get up and go if I need to do so, nor am I going to live in fear of my garage. There are FAR more things to worry about in a house than this, or in life than this, for that matter.
highdesertowl
5 years ago
JDS thanks so much for giving people these valuable reminders and precautions. When I was in grade school, my family came within an hour (according to the doctors) of dying from CO poisoning. My mother returned from an evening meeting and jumped out of our very quiet car to offer the babysitter a ride home. The sitter had made other arrangements. Mom shut the garage door, completely forgetting/ and not hearing that the car was still running. No CO detectors back then, or at least we didn't have one. My brother and I were already unconscious when we were very fortunately found by a neighbor, revived, and hospitalized. The garage was a two car garage, located under the three bedrooms of our home.
summersrhythm_z6a
5 years ago
That’s a pretty carriage house! Love the decking! 3 car garage is a great thing to have. I am wondering how many people don’t know they should never start a car, a motorcycle, a generator in a closed garage. It’s common sense. It doesn’t matter where the attached garage is located.
User
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
I don't understand why fear would have anything to do with responsible design.
wiscokid
5 years ago
Also make sure the garage has the correct fire barrier - built-in garages like that pose a higher fire risk to the house.
highdesertowl
5 years ago
Myira, I am sure it is easy to read all of these comments and get completely overwhelmed by all that "could be wrong" with the home you have offered on. Please recognize that we all could pick apart ANY house; and make it sound virtually impossible to own :) The purpose is not to inspire fear of your future home, but rather awareness. It is always good to be aware of the limitations of any home--and they all have them. That awareness lets you decide whether you have the skills and/or budget and/or interest to address these issues. For example, no one should be afraid of having a garage under all or part of their home--millions of homes are constructed that way. But be aware of CO dangers--and have working detectors in all recommended areas.
My3dogs ME zone 5A
5 years ago
#13 very near this one appears to have had a similar high quality reno, and sold in 2016. I wonder if the same person did that one?

The dishwasher in Myira's is separated from the sink only by a corner cabinet. The counter space over it gives a nice spot to put dishes coming out of the DW.
Kitchen in #13 below, with similar sink to DW relationship.
Elena Nuta
5 years ago
I'm not sure why everyone is saying the dishwasher is"across the room". There's only a corner cabinet between the sink and the dishwasher. With the dishwasher open, you can certainly move items from the sink to the dishwasher without dripping water across the whole kitchen.

As to the original question... as everyone says, not an easy thing to achieve, and certainly not cheap.
A A
Original Author
5 years ago
Thanks all, I’m reading all your advice, warnings do’s and don’ts.
So assuming the inspection does not uncover major issues and all the permit paperwork checks out fine(the rehabber needs to get the final completion inspection done), we may end up buying this house.

So if you had to live with this kitchen where there is no counter space next to the gas stove, what is a makeshift temporary way of getting by? Would putting a butchers block over the sink when prepping work?
summersrhythm_z6a
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
In the future that house could also have a wrap around deck-adding more decking to the front above the garages, it would look awesome.
Laura Mac
5 years ago
@myira, is there room for a small prep counter/rolling island under where the 2 photos are on the wall? Or is there room for a small, narrow rolling island in the middle of the kitchen? Hard to see spacing from the photos.....

There are many here on Houzz....

https://www.houzz.com/products/query/islands/nqrwns
beckysharp Reinstate SW Unconditionally
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
So if you had to live with this kitchen where there is no counter space next to the gas stove, what is a makeshift temporary way of getting by? Would putting a butchers block over the sink when prepping work?

It's hard to tell from your pictures of the kitchen how much actual floor space there is.

If there's enough space to put a small wheeled kitchen cart, like a mini island, I'd choose that over blocking the sink. Is there space to keep it, when not in use, on the non-eating side of the peninsula/breakfast bar area?

I see from the listing that the countertops in the kitchen and some of the bathrooms are marble. If you're not the type of person who can live with patina and will have a fit with stains, make sure that one of the first things you do is get all of the marble sealed properly. I'm a patina person myself, and just had a marble island installed in my new house, but most people don't seem to have a tolerance for marble's properties.
beckysharp Reinstate SW Unconditionally
5 years ago
Another thought: ask your inspector his best estimate for the age of the roof and furnace.
cpartist
5 years ago
The windows are all old single pane he said he just painted them.
The hvac is 10 years old, we could not see the date on the furnace. New water heater. Also the sellers disclosure said roof age is unknown.

The house has a tuck under 3 car garage, so part of the basement is the garage. The basement is smaller and partially finished. The sellers disclosure states he pulled permits for everything except the fireplace.

Based on my additional info above, any other words of advice or caution?

Yes, I would be very cautious as others have mentioned. If you go ahead with this buy, be sure you have a large cash reserve to get the windows and HVAC redone. Same with the roof. Not thousands, but tens of thousands. Most likely upper tens of thousands.

How many amps is the electrical?

The bottom line is to look over the house with a fine tooth comb and make sure that the flipper didn't just put lipstick on the pig. Their job is to make the average consumer come in, love the finishes and not question what is behind the walls.

As for the kitchen, I lived in a similar layout for years and wound up prepping over my dishwasher. We humans are adaptable, and while it wasn't ideal, it was fine.

Or as others suggested, you can get a rolling island cart.

Or replace the sink with one from Rachiele. While the sink is expensive, it would be less expensive than switching gas lines, etc.
cpartist
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
Oh yes as Becky said, make sure you can live with a marble counter. I wouldn't have a problem, but then again, I love when marble and natural stones get patina. I'm also the type who expects wood floors to get dings, scratches, etc in them. YMMV.
beckysharp Reinstate SW Unconditionally
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
The bottom line is to look over the house with a fine tooth comb and make sure that the flipper didn't just put lipstick on the pig. Their job is to make the average consumer come in, love the finishes and not question what is behind the walls.

This.

I'm assuming lipstick on a pig. The flipper is a local real estate company if I understand correctly from previous comments and similar listings, anda number of 1950s houses in this neighborhood in a very good school district. Which probably helps explain why it's a very $$$ neighborhood now.

I'm also assuming the company chose marble because it's actually cheaper than a lot of other countertop materials and it shows very well. Living with it, though, for most people -- unlike cp and me -- is tough.
latifolia
5 years ago
Like the idea of having your inspector estimate how many years of useful life the roof has left. Then get a respected roofing company to give you an estimate for replacing the roof.

In many places, a new roof requires a permit, so check that, too. If that’s the case, when the flipper says he doesn’t know, is that because he didn’t check because then he would have to disclose the roof is twenty years old?

Who hired your inspector, by the way? Hope it wasn’t your agent, because that inspector will have little incentive to say something that will kill the deal.
leelee
5 years ago
Before you purchase take a storage tub of dirty dishes and put them in the sink. Then proceed to load them in the dishwasher as you normally would.

It sounds strange but you need to know just what you'd be dealing with on a daily basis.
beckysharp Reinstate SW Unconditionally
5 years ago
Before you purchase take a storage tub of dirty dishes and put them in the sink. Then proceed to load them in the dishwasher as you normally would.

It sounds strange but you need to know just what you'd be dealing with on a daily basis.

Not a bad idea, but clean dishes would work too : )
champcamp
5 years ago
@myira - There is excellent advice above. I wanted to share two stories about my last house. We were moving from out of state with an infant and depended on our realtor and home inspector for a lot of things. Unfortunately the house we purchased was owned by a cheapskate DIYer sort and we spent lots of money fixing plumbing and electrical hazards that should have been caught on the home inspection. We were BFFs with the plumbing and electric companies. Both commented that they perform home inspections and that for a service charge will home out and look over a house someone is considering purchasing. I wished we had hired them to do a walkthrough in addition to the home inspector. It would have alerted us to a lot of problems for just a couple hundred dollars. Eventually we wanted to add on to the house but decided to move to a different place nearby to accommodate our growing family. We sold the house as is to a realtor who was also a house flipper. He made lots of cosmetic changes and we were very up front about issues we were planning to correct prior to moving such as new roof, rotting window, HVAC needing updated to properly service the bedroom wing, etc. None of those important things were improved or fixed when he put the house back on the market a few months later. I’m unsure of what he actually disclosed to the buyer. This is what concerns me about your situation so I’m glad you are seeking opinions and proceeding carefully.
Lyndee Lee
5 years ago
Another good source of info is your insurance agent. Ask the agent for claims filed on that address and any other info he might have about the rehabber. Chances are he won't know anything of interest but you might get lucky. He might even be able to tell you how old the roof is.

Average life of a component is only that, an average. Actual life depends heavily on the quality of the materials used and the care taken during installation. Windows are a classic example as an incorrectly flashed window is going to leak water, regardless of the amount of money spent to purchase the window. I would rather have old windows than spend a fortune and get an installer who is more concerned with getting 8 windows installed in a day than with installing one or two correctly.
leelee
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
Not a bad idea, but clean dishes would work too : )

No, clean dishes are what you take out of the dishwasher. Dirty dishes that drip water from the sink with food and grease on them are what you want to test. There is never a problem with clean dishes because they go into the cabinets : ))
kazmom
5 years ago
Honestly, the dishwasher isn’t an issue. It is in the exact same location that my last 2 were, and that the DW is in in most smaller U shaped kitchens where they have the sink at the end, the stone on one “leg” and the DW on the other. It will be fine.
leelee
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
The dishwasher's location is one of the main issues of this post. Any kitchen that is well designed has the dishwasher next to the sink on one side or the other.
Elizabeth B
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
If something is old and due to be replaced like the roof just negotiate it after inspection. The house I bought only had 2 years left on roof life ( which is 0 to homeowners insurance fyi) we negotiated $10k off the purchase price for it

buying a rehabbed house, dishwasher and gas range need to switch posit

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