I'm not help with the individual items you mentioned (very simple cooking here, and my 4-burner 30" induction cooktop is more than brilliant), but....

I can't imagine a 5th burner in 30" being all that useful. Have you actually seen the configurations and tested whether you could use 5 pots/pans at the same time?

Also, Some members of this forum (probably 50/50) think open burners are easier to keep clean than sealed burners.

A fifth burner in a closet except for the few times you need it seems realistic to me. I'm also on an induction 30" slide-in with steam assist oven for baking.

I would highly recommend a Capital to you. The sealed burner comes in 4 or 5 burners. On the 4 burner they are all 19K btu's on the 5 burner the center burner is 25k BTU. Huge oven as well. Model is MCR304 or MCR305.

Oh and they rolled out RAL color options about a year ago so you can order one in a color too!

With that limited space why not the 24" bluestar? You will not use 5 burners... Not because you won't need to but because the pans will hit each other on top and just won't fit. (Yes, I speak from experience, if there is a large pasta pot boiling water the burner next to it can only have the smallest 6" sauce pan...) To have more and useable burners you really need to go to a bigger cooktop. I would consider making cardboard templates of the pots and pans you intend to use at the same time and place them on top of the models you are thinking of and you'll see what I mean....AND for sure this cannot be located against a wall because the pan/pot handles on the back burners will need to stick out over the sides of the stove.

Commercial kitchens use open burners and I can tell you from many years in high volume professional kitchens those ranges take a beating with spills...every day! I would never suggest sealed burners to any one other than those slightly ocd about cleaning. I know it sounds counter intuitive but sealed burners can be a royal pain to clean. Open burner ranges like BS have a slide out drip pan under the burner which is a snap to clean. You can also remove the manifold (although not nearly as easy as on a commercial Garland) and clean that if you really make a mess. Rotsa ruck with that on a sealed burner! ;)

As far as brands we just swapped out a Viking that was 15 years old. It was an excellent product however I wouldn't even think of buying that brand today as the company has sold several times over and the products have gone through many changes. Ours was a 30" open burner, self cleaning, all gas. Not even an option any longer.

BS makes a nice product but no self cleaning oven. I wouldn't get wrapped up in the BTU ratings. All of these brands have burners that perform very well. With BS I'd pay close attention to the dealer and service network in your area. Fit and Finish on the BS is something you should see in person.

Considering your brand selection I'd also consider Wolf and Bertazzoni. Both are sealed burner. The Bert is a fraction of the price especially if you consider the master series Vs the pro. The primary difference on the Pro is the euro style knobs (and the price).

In the end we bought the Wolf DF. The burners are a dream and frankly I like them far better than the BS as the flame is more even. AFAIK the Wolf crazing issue is a thing of the past but I freely admit I'd try any thing to have self cleaning Vs having my head stuck in an oven with toxic caustic oven spray on my day off.

For us it came down to the Wolf Vs the Bert. Even though the Bert was nearly 1/2 the price we went with the Wolf as the feature set had every thing I wanted except open burners.

Happy Hunting for a new range !

AFAIK the Wolf crazing issue is a thing of the past

Long story short it isn't, despite what the dealers and distributors say. People have had the issue as recently as this year and someone who went through 6 defective chipping DF ranges (plus a couple oven liner replacements on their first one) is currently suing Wolf.. Some people haven't had it (seems to be people who don't use their ovens often), but it's easy to miss especially with the glare of the lights, so do a very careful inspection before every time you use the oven so you can catch it if it happens before the warranty expires.

For people buying wall ovens, it looks like the new M series with the redesigned cavity and the different type of porcelain is safe. Unfortunately the only workaround for the range is to buy the all gas model or go with a different brand.

Thanks for that update. I will keep a watchful eye and thankfully we have a 3 year factory warranty.

This is always the struggle with a SC oven. High heat during that process = a greater possibility of failure. That's something every buyer should be aware of with any SC oven.

I have seen accounts of people encountering the chipping without using the self clean cycle at all. Plus the countless good old simple, reliable ovens that have been self cleaned time and time again with no problems. IMO more of a Wolf issue than a self clean issue.

I"m happy to report that thus far there's been no issues here.

I have an open burner range (American Range--I don't recommend it because the manufacturer has refused to assist me with some issues) and it's easy to clean. All the parts come off easily and can be washed in the sink. Can't do that with sealed burners.

If you're really a slob who wants high powered cooking, you should at least try out induction.

OK, So I am chewing this all over. What great ideas and perspectives! We have been considering this all weekend and looking at what you all had to offer. Thank you.

If nothing else I am wrapping my brain around a separate, good quality, induction burner instead of the five burner stove. Last trip to Europe I stayed in houses with induction stoves and was
surprised by how responsive they were. There is clearly a learning
curve, but still, surprising performance.

The addition of the fifth burner just results in too many drawbacks in other features, especially my desire for two powerful burners I can sling my cast iron grill/griddle over. I grill a lot and I currently fire up the 10k btu burners on the left side of the stove for grilling and it is not hot enough to suit me. The 'power burner' is a pathetic 12k which leaves my stir fry soggy. Makes me nostalgic for that old school Wolf with 6 open burners and an 8 burner flat top. Which I did not have to keep clean. Usually. The griddle was easy to do, but the burners somewhat less so.

I don't need sub atomic levels of heat, but I do want 15k or more on at least 3 burners. Impossible to find on the 5 burners, readily available on the 4 burners. Two to grill and one to boil the usual huge pasta pot. For small meals that's an 8 quart, large ones I use a commercial stock pot which can take what seems like forever... I would love for one burner to be a total after burner. Think it's possible to pipe in a special dedicated line for jet fuel? ; -)

As I type it becomes clear to me that I am shifting to the four burner with a good induction stashed in a closet for when I need it.

If I reconsider and move back to the 4 burner then I have lots of good
choices. Most of them have reasonably powerful burners, and don't horse
around with the weird btu assortment they all seem to love to put on
the 5 burners.

I think I have to go back to the drawing board and look at the 4 burners more carefully. I think the starting list is

• BlueStar,
• Wolf,
• Majestic,
• Capital.

Probable nix on;

• Viking; seems to be suffering too many QC issues.
• La Cornue; Just doesn't appear to live up to the price tag. No matter how cool it looks.

And I hatehatehate to say this. But. Reading here and on CR has made me consider the whole induction thang. I can hardly believe I am, but.... It is a total mindbender. I haven't ever lived with an electric stove, and the ones I have cooked on have just sucked so bad. I am trying to not be a dinosaur and take into account that Induction is not electric ring element. I know this, the one I cooked n in Spain recently was surprising. But to not go gas? My mind boggles. My husband has been urging I consider it all weekend. He keeps pointing out the ease of cleanup...

Lots to like about induction, including ease of clean-up.

In terms of looking for a jet fuel burner for boiling pasta water in
that big commercial stockpot, many induction ranges have a right front
burner that that is 10" or 11" in diameter and can boost up to 3700
watts. That's roughly equivalent to a 27000 BTU gas burner. More than
on any of the gas ranges you are considering. So, fairly potent if not
quite in the jet engine category.

But remember, every stove represents a mix of design choices and engineering compromises. You pick the mix of trade-offs that suits you best. Fuel is only part of the comparison. Also, at this point, you are comparing pro-style gas ranges to some as-yet hypothetical induction ranges. Since you can't buy an abstract induction range, you'll find yourself looking into specific induction ranges and then looking at the practicalities that come with every one of them. (Oh no! More research!)

One set of practicalities for you seems to be how much or how often you will want to be running four large pans at a time. (This is something I understand because it was an important consideration for me when I was stove shopping three years ago.)

You listed some pro-style gas ranges that make this easy because of they have wider burner spacing.

Induction ranges --- not so much. They pretty much all use more standard burner spacing. That constrains the size of pans you can use at a time. How much of a constraint? As always, "it depends."

Depends on the stove and on your choice of pans. Your example of two largish grilling pans (maybe 12" skillets?) and a 8 to 12 quart stockpot is very do-able on some induction ranges. A fourth pan in the mix? Better be a smallish sauce pan (3 or 4 quart max). Throw that commercial stockpot/pasta pot into the mix, and maybe things don't work so easily for your multi-pan operations

Best recommendation is take your mix of pots to a retailer with the stove you are interested in and and see how the pans fit on the floor models.

I cringe at the thought of giving up gas when it's an option. However clean up should be easy peasy on induction. If you find one with a self cleaning oven it might be time to embrace change, assuming you won't be forced to change cookware as well.

With both the BS and Capital I would strongly suggest you see the actual series in person you are considering. BS fit and finish is fine for me but many who have not spent years around true commercial equipment can find it lacking, even on the Platinum series.

Capital is just a different beast.

The 30" Wolf will give you three 15k burners. I do greatly prefer the Wolf burner to all of the others. It simply burns more efficiently and even.

If you are willing to manually clean an oven I think I would narrow it down to BS Vs induction. The Wolf is nice with a lot of features but I think you will be much happier with an open burner.

I completely agree with your conclusion, four low to high-powered gas burners (particularly when you referenced slinging the pans around, you can't sling on a glass cooktop) plus induction BUT before you get excited about induction, do you have a 240V line coming into your house? Into your kitchen? Induction is only any good at 220V and up. You cannot be plugging and unplugging this type of electricity on a regular basis, the induction surface will have to have a permanent home. If price is a factor getting the correct line into the kitchen may cost more and may require you to upgrade the entire electric panel...

Just buy a $100 induction hob and try it out, keeping in mind that most built in units will have more power. You just can't boil water faster or have better control than with induction. Maybe check out the countertop grill options if you want those. You can plop the thing on top of your induction stove and use the hood.

If you are remodeling, a countertop induction hob will keep you sane during the process.

"docsknotinn2day

Thanks for that update. I will keep a watchful eye and thankfully we have a 3 year factory warranty."

_____

Wipe the bottom of the oven periodically with a white paper towel. The shards can be tiny and the blue shows up pretty well that way.

"In the end we bought the Wolf DF. The burners are a dream and frankly I like them far better than the BS as the flame is more even. "

" I do greatly prefer the Wolf burner to all of the others. It simply burns more efficiently"

_____

There have been many discussions on this forum about efficiency of burners but no one has ever provided data to prove which gas burners are more efficient.

I have the Wolf DF and like the burners for a lot of reasons but I don't think you can make a blanket statement about evenness of heat for either. BS by the design provides a much more even heat pattern if you have the pan sized to the burner. This may be useful if you use cast iron or steel pans to avoid the ring pattern. If you use cookware that has better thermal conductivity, heavy gauge aluminum or copper it won't matter.

In considering the burner, I would also look at the flame and how it will relate to your pans in size. Wolf has a capped ring burner which will flare outward more than an uncapped burner on highest heat. It does not flare as much as some other brands of capped burners do but this is in comparison to BS. This works for me because I use high heat mostly on wider pans, but if you cook with high heat in smaller pans, the Wolf might flare too much. The BS has the burner ports oriented along the sides of the star on some of the burners so as heat is turned up, it flares out from the the rays of the star keeping the heat within the pattern of the burner. BS has sized burners so that you can take advantage of these features.

_____

To the OP,

As as to griddles, you might consider having two. The Chef King is steel, so like CI can get really hot but much slower to heat and change temperature. It can be more uneven but some people like zones of heat. Also consider using a heavy gauge aluminum griddle like Royal Industries griddle. It will heat more evenly and quickly and change temperatures more quickly. It is great for making sandwiches and things like pancakes. It comes in nonstick and uncoated. The uncoated eventually can take on a seasoning like CI but not as quickly. It is a little bigger too because the aluminum allows better heat transfer. I would have both in a 2 burner size, but the steel was getting too heavy when I had to buy a bigger size when I bought my new range.

I bought a 120v induction hob "to try" and it was worthless...I wouldn't waste the money.....

That's odd, practigal. Mine was great, and that's after having high powered built in units.

Have you considered getting a 36" induction cooktop and putting an oven beneath the cooktop? This way you have the use of the 5 burners, but if you need extra space, the induction, because it stays cool, can be used as extra space. Just put down a silicone mat to protect the top.

In my condo now, I have an electric cooktop (I'm building a new house so will be putting induction in. I had a choice of induction or gas and decided on induction) with my oven below and it works very well that way. This way you get just the cooktop you want and the oven you want.

Not only does induction clean up more easily. Can we say wipe up with water and a paper towel, but you can put a paper towel under the hob as you're cooking so anything that gets flung out of the pot actually winds up on the paper towel.

Additionally if you have young children, induction is a heck of a lot safer!

I am a Bluestar owner and went through the 5 burner thing too when I was looking. Started with the 30" Viking 5 series first, but after some research soon realized that the 4 burner Bluestar or Capital ranges were a much better option than any 30" 5 burner range that exists in the market. As far as induction, I need a flame in my life and have the space and hood requirements needed to make this setup work in my home. I have not questioned my decision, love the open burner design of Bluestar and I am very happy with the way my stove and oven cooks food. Also, no Bluestar issues re: doors, igniters and whatever else people are complaining about. Sounds like you're a cook, get the open burners. You will love the instant range of heat. Searing, wokking, simmering all are fantastic. As far as clean up, not that difficult, induction might be as easy as wiping it off but I have no problem keeping my Bluestar range looking clean. I have more on the cleaning if you need more info.....Good luck deciding.

Thank you for all this data. I am looking for a duel fuel 30" slide in range, as my 2001 Thermadore oven died and no replacement parts available. I am a baker and daily cook. Don't want any fancy features, just well made, durable range. sounds like Bluestar or Wolf fit this description.

Bluestar is all gas and I have Wolf DF and would not recommend it because of the blue chipping enamel.

I haven't seen any one claiming that they own a current production Wolf with an enamel issue and put up photos showing it. We have a Wolf DF-SC and I've now run the SC cycle several times, Microfiber cloth wipe after and magnifying glass inspection. Thus far no issues. I'm truly sorry to hear others had this issue in the past but it is not a given.

No product is perfect or we would all own the same. There are are some things with both BS and Wolf that are negatives and positives worthy of consideration.

The Wolf oven vents out the bottom front of the oven. That's a RPITA for a self cleaning cycle unless you have a massive hood system. The Wolf grates use rubber feet that have to be one of the dumbest product ideas I have ever seen. They come apart and detach, worse yet while they are intact you wont want to use oven cleaners etc to clean your grates. There is a gap between the SS edging on top of the range and the enamel around the burners that ends up catching food. Just a rather poor Fit and finish in that regard.

The Wolf burners however (IMO) work far better and more efficient than BS and the oven is just fantastic. The Wolf DF oven is the best I've ever used out side a professional kitchen and even then I'd say better than the vast majority.

The BS is a different beast. Fit and finish even on the Platinum series can be a bit of a shocker to any one who has not seen one in person. If you are considering a lower model in the BS line up be sure to view it in person. The burner configuration on a 30" is a bit of a drawback unless the majority of your cooking is high temp. Not every one needs two 22K burners on a 30" range. You won't find the low end burner control of Wolf on a BS however you wont find a 22K burner on a Wolf either. The Wolf burner is sealed and BS is an open burner which I strongly prefer. BS has had issues with the ignition and oven doors plus their dealer and service network is limited.

One you come to terms with price point and feature set (These are both excellent over all products) keep in mind that a quality installation goes a long way towards a product that will serve you well. For me that's a big bonus with Wolf as they offer a factory certified installer program. When you use an installer that's registered Wolf extends the warranty to three years.

These are expensive products so take your time and try to get hands on with any product you consider. Either way if you've narrowed it to Wolf Vs BS I'd say you are in a good spot! ;)

We're also looking for a 30" range...

Does anyone have an opinion on the finish and quality of the BlueStar RCS versus the RNB? I know there is a difference in the BTUs of the burners, but is that the only difference? Or are the build materials different, also?

Our end objectives are slightly different, as well...we are looking at getting a "pro-style" range for a remodel with home resale within the next 4-5 years, and we are on the fence with respect to getting a GE Cafe or bumping up to a true pro-style range. Although, we are definitely serious cooks, we are having a hard time justifying the expense in this house.

If you plan to sell spending more on a range is not a wise investment. The GE Cafe is already a nice upgrade over the average kitchen appliance. TBH if I was planning to sell in that time frame I'd probably be looking at one of the standard SS GE ranges in the $1500-1800 range or a Bertazoni Master.

"docsknotinn2day

I haven't seen any one claiming that they own a current production Wolf with an enamel issue and put up photos showing it. We have a Wolf DF-SC and I've now run the SC cycle several times, Microfiber cloth wipe after and magnifying glass inspection. Thus far no issues. I'm truly sorry to hear others had this issue in the past but it is not a given."

Of course it is not a given that you will have chipping. There have been those who don't. It seems to take much longer in most cases to get the chipping on the range. I had mine for 4.5 years before it developed so they are out of warranty by then. You are are out of luck.

There is no new design though like the M series wall oven, it has been the same for years. One of our posters here said that the enamel on the M appears to be different. I also know if I paid to have my liner replaced even in light of the problems I have had, they will only stand behind the new liner for one year so not a lot of confidence there on their part. There is a lawsuit in which someone bought a Wolf DF and went through six ranges and some additional changes of the liner starting in 2006 and got the last range in 2014, so those all degraded quickly and 2014 would seem pretty recent. Any more recent than that would not have had the chance to go bad yet. The point of this forum is to let others know of their experiences and it is up to them what they want to buy. I liked my DF until it was no longer usable.

"The Wolf burners however (IMO) work far better and more efficient than BS and the oven is just fantastic. The Wolf DF oven is the best I've ever used out side a professional kitchen and even then I'd say better than the vast majority."

There have been many discussions on efficiency of these burners but there is no data that I have seen that can support either one being more efficient. As far as one working better than the other, it depends on what you are cooking, what you want to do and your cookware.

I loved the Wolf oven but I give the edge to my Electrolux wall oven. It preheats a lot quicker and it still works which is a big plus. They bake about the same.

"You won't find the low end burner control of Wolf on a BS however you wont find a 22K burner on a Wolf either."

Anecdotally people say they have adequate simmer but BS has never said what the output is with their burners so no way to compare. I also wonder if the BTUs of the simmer on the Wolf changed when they raised the BTUs?

In any case BS and Wolf DF are totally different types of ranges.

Once again no photos or documentation. I think it highly unlikely an oven liner would go bad after a few years out side of the rare fluke, which can happen with any brand. Some thing like this is typically going to fail quickly .... or not at all.

Now I've seen a few people re-post this story about this "some one" killing six Wolf ranges since 2006 and frankly I believe that about as much as I believe I'm going to win the lottery next week...Twice! Any one can re-post a rumor but with out documentation it's just conjecture. TBH that just sounds like brand bashing instead of any informational exchange.

I'd give that about as much credence as saying BS is going to have hinge and oven door failures, ignition failures etc because it's happened many times in the past. The chances of that are slim. Each Internet poster with an issue for either brand probably represents 1 out of several thousand buyers that have no issues.

I'd suggest any potential buyer of either brand take any of this Internet fear mongering with a heaping spoon of salt. Pretty silly stuff IMO because they are both good companies that make good products.

"Now I've seen a few people re-post this story about this "some one" killing six Wolf ranges since 2006 ....Any one can re-post a rumor but with out documentation it's just conjecture."

Your wording of " someone" killing 6 Wolf ranges is blaming the victim. It should be a story was posted about Wolf ranges failing.

"Once again no photos or documentation"

-->>This is the link to the case, not just "someone" , it is the Kails--all the details can be downloaded on Pacer. You have to pay to download but hvtech42 evidently did and provided some of the details on this threadVVV, so this is where the details have been related. He does not have a Wolf or any reason to make this up and has been a very helpful poster here for a long time. So if you honestly want the details they are there.

Wolf Lawsuit filed July 9, 2015 regarding Blue Porcelain Chipping

A conjecture is an opinion or conclusion based on incomplete information like speculating on the efficiency of burners without supporting data

or the statement

"Each Internet poster with an issue for either brand probably represents 1 out of several thousand buyers that have no issues."

or

"I think it highly unlikely an oven liner would go bad after a few years out side of the rare fluke, which can happen with any brand. Some thing like this is typically going to fail quickly .... or not at all."

That last statement! Let's just say you might want to read a little more right here on this forum.

My pictures and many others are posted on this forum. These posts relating our personal experiences and posting of lawsuits involving appliances many of us have had experience with, do constitute exchange of information. Before the internet, this was not possible. This would have never been brought to light.

We had another poster try to guess the incidence of blue chipping based on 50 or so cases he read about, which surprised me that he found that many written about. There is no way to tell. We do know some long time posters here have had multiple failures, so the 6 in a row in this lawsuit does not surprise me. We had one thread, "Does anyone have a Wolf oven that hasn't chipped?" and some did. Not everyone that has the problem has self cleaned.

"I'd suggest any potential buyer of either brand take any of this Internet fear mongering with a heaping spoon of salt."

I would advise anyone buying appliances to read as much as you can and make an informed decision. Decide what type/amount of risk is acceptable and develope strategies to minimize your risks. This is with all appliances.

"Pretty silly stuff IMO because they are both good companies that make good products."

I bought my Wolf range based on that broad assumption. "Decades of service" they said. Hopefully you won't have to find out otherwise a few years down the road and be as disappointed as I have been.

I agree that anyone can have issues, but it is how they handle the issues.

Do they take immediate steps and keep customers safe when an issue discovered? One of our posters was cut on the shards of enamel but the shards can also be ingested or inhaled. " It's normal"or it's cosmetic" they said.

Posters here have related many different stories from the dealers or the company about how it was a problem or never a problem or it was fixed in 2006 or a few years ago. Why do you think current production is all of a sudden good? This issue has been around for 9 years on this forum. If they had owned it, fixed it and made good to people who were affected we would be long term enthusiastic customers and they would have great word of mouth. If it were as few as you think, why would they not? Instead they won't even tell me how much it is to "fix" it and no promises that it is fixed.

As Wekick said, if you think I am making it up you are welcome to go on PACER and download for yourself.

PACER is free if you download less than 150 pages per quarter. The case was around 30 pages so I paid nothing.

"My pictures and many others are posted on this forum"

Them post them or give us a link. It's pretty simple. Every one of us has a cell phone with a camera. If I was having that issue I'd put the images all over the Internet for the world to see.

Setting that aside you still haven't told us a thing about this statement claiming "some one killed six Wolf ranges". So either you are trying to claim Wolf replaced six ranges and kept extending their warranty...Which would make them the greatest Company ever for customer service....or you are trying to claim some one kept buying a Wolf and throwing it out every two years instead of having a simple repair. Which sounds more like the customer is not very intelligent. If you damage six ovens in a row you are doing something wrong. Either that or every unit would be defective, which we all know is not the case. This lawsuit, you linked is neither a class action or even a Federal case. In fact it's not even a circuit court case!!

Do you have any idea how petty a state district court claim is? Good grief. It's amazing how actual facts can change a story.

@Hvtech. I don't think you are making any thing up but realize just because some one files a lawsuit it doesn't make their claim factual. If you read that you should realize how absurd it is to try to use Internet posts from unknown entities on different web sites as evidence in a lawsuit. That says more about that case than I think any one could.

I am not going to the trouble of posting more links because you have not read the links I have posted or you would know that the plaintiffs are seeking class action status. If you are truly interested put "Wolf blue chipping" in the search box above or some variation of wolf blue chipping porcelain in the Google search and Google image search. Anyone who really wants to find info can easily do it and will do it.

You have not provided one fact yet. You have disparaged and blamed Wolf customers who have used these ovens in normal, expected ways. You are the one who has "made claims" about the efficiency of the burners and the prevalence of the issue with absolutely no supporting data.

"If you damage six ovens in a row you are doing something wrong. Either that or every unit would be defective, which we all know is not the case."

You are accusing people of damaging the oven or doing something wrong which are more unsubstantiated claims when you have no knowledge of the situation. Again we have no idea of the prevalence but one of our trusted posters here had 3 ovens in a row go bad. You don't seem to understand the nature of the problem and in calling it a simple repair you have absolutely no knowledge of what it takes to fix it. If it were so simple why won't Wolf give me a price to do it instead they say labor is an unknown amount but starts at $800. If it is so simple why are they charging so much? There is a reason that Wolf chose to replace the ranges for the Kails instead of replacing the liner which requires taking the oven apart and requires 2-4 technicians. Restarting the warranty is a common although not universal practice. I had issues with blue enamel in two other brands and warranties were restarted when they were replaced. We are not "making claims" as you seem wont to do, but relating the details of a lawsuit that is currently active, that you can read for free a hvtech42 pointed out. The plaintiffs have related a sequence of events for the repairs and Wolf has not denied them. Using the court where this was filed to demean the suit? As the lawsuit progresses there are rules of evidence that will come into play. But you being an expert in law know that this is just the beginning.

You can believe whatever you want but if I were you I would keep checking that oven as you have been doing, so that hopefully it won't be out of warranty if it happens to you.

.

So basically what you have is an unsubstantiated rant that amounts to little more than brand bashing. You could post images in a fraction of the time it takes to write all that hate. I'm from the show me state. Any one can....and will, say just about any thing on the Internet. Those claims are useless with out posting photos of YOUR oven, that YOU own and YOU had a failure with.

It's pretty darn revealing when the loudest voice can't post a single image.

"Restarting the warranty is a common although not universal practice."

Ahhhh No. Not common at all. Not common to replace an entire unit either when it can be repaired. If there's any truth to that (I think we should have have doubts about claims that extreme) then my confidence in Wolf and their customer service just went through the roof because not very many companies would work that hard that long with a product that clearly was out of it's warranty period.

Them post them or give us a link. It's pretty simple. Every one of us has a cell phone with a camera. If I was having that issue I'd put the images all over the Internet for the world to see.

Do you seriously think people are making this up? They HAVE posted pictures, many, many times. However, that does not mean they are going to go to the trouble of re-uploading the pictures in EVERY single thread where the issue has come up just because someone might be too lazy to do a search for themselves. Having said that, here are some links with pictures:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2813591/wolf-porcelain-chipping-on-new-ovens

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2279268/wolf-oven-here-we-go-again

http://rhome410.blogspot.com/2013/11/still-sad-about-wolf-breaking-up-with-me.html

So either you are trying to claim Wolf replaced six ranges and kept extending their warranty

The customers bought a DF range. The porcelain chipped. Wolf replaced the cavity multiple times. Then, after none of the replacement cavities held up, they replaced the entire range 5 times over the next few years. After the 5th replacement chipped, Wolf refused to do anything more, so clearly they did not renew the warranty. Without a warranty, of course they didn't have to do anything, it might have been nice of them to do the right thing, so the customers were not stuck getting less than 10 years of use out of their $10,000 range (with much inconvenience to them during those years).

Either that or every unit would be defective, which we all know is not the case.

And, how would "we" know that? Where is the evidence?

@Hvtech. I don't think you are making any thing up but realize just because some one files a lawsuit it doesn't make their claim factual.

In their response, Wolf acknowledged that they had, indeed replaced the liner and entire range the number of times claimed in the suit.

There are two used DF wolf ranges on eBay right now, posted by the same seller, both with the enamel problems I've seen described here. The seller describes it as "scratches" and "does not affect its operation at all". Of course I don't know how old or new those ranges are.

This is a documented problem with these ovens. Wekick is a long time respected poster here and has documented his problems in other threads. Take the time to search the problem as he suggests and you will learn more.

Ahhhh No. Not common at all. Not common to replace an entire unit either when it can be repaired.

Yes, but when the repair is as major as replacing an oven liner, the cost of the part and labor to the manufacturer rivals the cost of simply replacing the range.

If there's any truth to that (I think we should have have doubts about claims that extreme) then my confidence in Wolf and their customer service just went through the roof because not very many companies would work that hard that long with a product that clearly was out of it's warranty period.

Yes, but replacing a product that many times is not the best solution for the customer! If at the end of the day, the product is going to keep breaking, they should have refunded their money after the 2nd or 3rd time. Because they can't go on replacing forever, and when they did stop, the customers were stuck with an unusable range.

Also, they have shown inconsistency in their service. They replaced the Kails' range multiple times out of warranty, but they couldn't even replace wekick's once.

hvtech I agree with much of what you post, although I struggle to give credibility to any one that can't substantiate their claim with a photo. Complaining about a product failure 2.5 years after warranty expiration is not terribly reasonable although I surely would not wish this on any one no matter how far out side the warranty period.

In the first "problem" link above I see an oven that was repaired to the satisfaction of the owner, much to the dismay of some.

In the third link I see an actual problem that's from metal fatigue. Many SC ovens have dealt with that Including the Viking AG-SC. I had an enameled bottom replaced in mine and then it lasted 15 years. While disconcerting I don't find it any more troubling than BS oven door/hinge failures or any number of issues that other products might have. If any thing it seems like Wolf has made things right and in the link we've just been given Wolf even bought back the product. Not sure what any more any one could expect, although it would be nice if we lived in a perfect world where mechanical items never failed.

If any thing I now have far more confidence in Wolf although I won't lie, I do wish the oven liner in the DF304 was two piece.

I struggle to give credibility to any one that can't substantiate their claim with a photo

OK, here's the problem with this. Nobody really cares whether you "give them credibility", whether you believe their experience is true or not, or whether you believe Wolf chipping is an issue or not. Certainly not enough to go digging through their hard drive looking for a picture to post just for you. Particularly since your posts frankly seemed a bit rude. I understand you may not have meant them to come off that way, but they did. Maybe if you'd asked in a different way, you would have gotten pictures. Such as "I'm wondering what the chipping looks like and what areas it tends to happen in. Would you mind posting a picture?" instead of "I think you're lying. Prove me wrong with a picture."

All people are trying to do here is share their experiences, and then let others make their own buying decisions based on that information. Most new posters who join these forums and ask questions are pretty trusting, because spammers and people with conflicts of interest generally don't last very long here. If someone replies to a question with their genuine experience with a product, good or bad, the original poster may ask them follow up questions to get more details or clarify things - but since they're grateful for the time that person took to write their responses, they aren't going to thank them by grilling them for evidence that they actually own the product or have/have not had issues. If you don't find the information relevant to you, and want to believe that we're biased against Wolf, are "fear mongering", and that a company like that would NEVER allow something like this to happen, etc. Then go ahead! Nobody is trying to stop you from thinking that, and it's no skin off anyone's back that you bought a Wolf and like it (many people here were in that same boat at one point!). But when you then basically accuse people of making up stories about problems and being too stupid to use an oven properly without the enamel flaking off - you can expect a response.

Still, of course it's a public site that anyone can join, and people with agendas occasionally make their way onto it. However, if someone is suspicious of a member, it's usually super easy to spot those people by giving their profile a quick glance. If they just joined the forum, and all their posts are strongly positive or negative about a particular product or service, chances are there's something fishy going on. However, if they have been posting here for years about a great variety of different topics, they probably know what they're talking about and are just trying to help. And, another way to spot someone genuine is to see if their opinions change over time! Again, most of the people here who criticize Wolf about this issue had nothing but good things to say about their ovens before they ran into trouble, and that can be verified by looking at their posting history.

Complaining about a product failure 2.5 years after warranty expiration is not terribly reasonable

In most cases, I would agree with this. Stuff happens. If something like an ignitor or even a control board happens to go bad not too long after the warranty expires, it may not be the most fun situation to be in, but it could have just as easily happened if you'd bought a different brand, and engaging in online tirades against the manufacturer would not be the most productive thing to do. Just suck it up, fix it, and move on with life. However, replacing an oven liner isn't like replacing an ignitor or a control board. It's the equivalent of performing open heart surgery on a range. The fact that it is more economical in most cases for the manufacturer to replace rather than repair is very telling. And when there seems to be a pattern of the issue happening to more than just 1 or 2 people - it's concerning, and I would argue complaining about it is quite reasonable. Wolf seems to recognize this as well, and although they won't admit that the chipping can actually be a safety hazard, or that it is a widespread problem - they have been known to confess on the phone that it is a recurring issue.

In the first "problem" link above I see an oven that was repaired to the satisfaction of the owner, much to the dismay of some.

Well, this particular oven was still in warranty, so of course it was repaired to the satisfaction of the owner. It better have been! There has never been any question about Wolf being willing to honor their warranty. They have been said by many to be polite and efficient when dealing with warranty repairs or replacements. The questions start to arise after the warranty expires. Like any manufacturer, Wolf is not obligated to do any goodwill repairs or replacements out of warranty. However, due to the price premium they charge and the advertising they do, people expect more out of them than other manufacturers. In many cases, they have lived up to this expectation, like in the links I gave. Promptly replacing products, in or out of warranty, and after several replacements, if there was still chipping, buying back the oven without resistance or fighting. But the problem is that they are inconsistent. In other cases, they have unfortunately not lived up to it, like in the cases of wekick and the Kails. Both were left with unusable products in under 10 years of use (under 5 years in the case of wekick) with no option to sell back their ovens, or repair without spending thousands with no guarantee it wouldn't happen again. When there are that many reports of this exact same issue happening (and evidently countless other incidents out there that didn't make it onto the internet or didn't even get noticed by the owner), that doesn't seem fair.

In the third link I see an actual problem that's from metal fatigue.

Does that really matter? I have used self clean ovens of various brands for decades and never run into any issues with the cavity becoming damaged. Besides, the Wolf chipping has been reported in units that have not had self clean run even once. That was her third oven, and the two before it had met the same fate. After three defective ovens in less than a year, can you blame someone for not wanting to try another? Yes, this was one of the cases where Wolf did the right thing, but again, with so many failures that early on, they kind of had to.

Hvtech42, you saved me a lot of writing.

"docsknotinn2day

So basically what you have is an unsubstantiated rant that amounts to little more than brand bashing. You could post images in a fraction of the time it takes to write all that hate. I'm from the show me state. Any one can....and will, say just about any thing on the Internet. Those claims are useless with out posting photos of YOUR oven, that YOU own and YOU had a failure with.

It's pretty darn revealing when the loudest voice can't post a single image.

I struggle to give credibility to any one that can't substantiate their claim with a photo."

Hate??? Seriously?

You seem more interested in name calling than actually putting any effort into seeing what I and others have posted in the past, so that you might gain a better understanding of the issue and see the images have been posted. If you had put a modicum of effort into reading, you would see that I have recommended Wolf AG ovens in many of my posts because they have black interiors and no problems with enamel. You would also see that I have recommended their burners for those for who have a cooking style that would be matched to those burners. You would also see that I was a very ardent fan of my range until this happened. I remember the first time these issues came up and I thought this can't be a widespread problem and then as the issue progressed I thought Wolf has a great reputation so they will take care of their customers in warranty or not. Sadly I found out that they don't.

Instead of making any effort, you make repeated false accusations. I've been on this forum for a long time and we have had some vigorous discussions but I have never seen anyone who repeatedly disrespected and disparaged a whole group of people by stating that they must have done something to cause this damage. This kind of thing is usually shillish.

I do want to make a point so will post this to show a difference in the types of damage you can get for anyone considering Wolf products.

This is the bottom of my oven.

The pitting and chipping leaves an area that is rust colored and from my own research is most likely the iron oxide used in the substrate. It does not wipe off on a paper towel like rust would. This is generally over the heating element. This is often what is described with the DF ovens and often occurs after the oven is out of warranty. I am not sure that having a two piece liner would help this. This is not the same linear pattern of crazing you see on the wall ovens which seems to happen sooner and in warranty. That is not to say you couldn't have either but just generally what is observed on this forum.

"Complaining about a product failure 2.5 years after warranty expiration is not terribly reasonable although I surely would not wish this on any one no matter how far out side the warranty period.""

That is a pretty amazing statement and we would differ quite a bit on that but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I think Wolf is very happy to have you as a customer. I think it is very reasonable to expect the structure of the oven to last more than 2 years after the warranty. This is not a light bulb that burned out. As I said above many DFs do not develop this problem until the warranty is out. This is why we have gotten inquiries here about used ranges and "Does the chipping matter?" I expected more, as do most who pay a premium price for an appliance from a company that advertises "decades of service" and that they will do everything for your complete satisfaction. But hey, one of the purposes of a forum to give our experiences and opinions and then prospective buyers can decide how their expectations might be met and how they want to spend their money.

"I had an enameled bottom replaced in mine and then it lasted 15 years. While disconcerting I don't find it any more troubling than BS oven door/hinge failures or any number of issues that other products might have."

I had a similar experience with my current wall oven. Here is the difference. I was able to get a fixed estimate at about half the cost of where Wolf starts. It has been fine for 2 years now. Even if I decided to pay this unknown amount to replace the liner, the part is only guaranteed a year and because I have read everyone's experiences here, I decided reinvestment was not a prudent use of resources for me. Wolf has replaced appliances in the past that were the same age as my appliance with a small charge but this is no longer the case. I will say in my correspondence with them, there does not seem to be a set protocol. They try to offer the least possible and you have to haggle. You can get them to increase what they will do, so keep that in mind if you have these issues after the warranty is out and you have changed your mind about such a short lifespan being reasonable.

"If any thing it seems like Wolf has made things right and in the link we've just been given Wolf even bought back the product. Not sure what any more any one could expect, although it would be nice if we lived in a perfect world where mechanical items never failed."

If you had read my posts in the past, I have always said that Wolf would take care of customers in the warranty period. They bought just the one back after three failures in a row. Some posters here who had the E series ovens had to pay the full difference to upgrade to the M series that has been redesigned to fix the problem.

What would I expect?

1. Once this dangerous issue has been disclosed, they should have stopped production and determined what could be done to remedy the situation. If it meant going back to black enamel, swallow your pride and do it.

2. They should have made good to all customers affected at no cost to that customer.

As far as restarting the warranty, this is not something that they offer and you have to pursue it when you make the trade. It is when the whole product is traded out. I would get it in writing. I got this with two different brands and have heard of others here that got it as well. Of course our fellow poster doc will not believe this but for others who are reading this and in the position of having a unit replaced, it is worth asking about. I got it from the dealer.

" I would argue complaining about it is quite reasonable"

I
would agree to a point but that ship has clearly sailed. I searched the site
yesterday and I found very little or than two people re-posting the same
thing ad nauseam with little (if any) new information other than
imagined problems with people that "didn't notice" or didn't report on
the Internet. Even in those very few cases where there was an issue and the owner was happy with the repair, we see
the same two posters come back with more fear mongering.

Nice.

" Some posters here who had the E series ovens had to pay the full
difference to upgrade to the M series that has been redesigned to fix
the problem."

That's odd because you seem to keep suggesting that Wolf has
done nothing to fix the issue. You might also consider the topic as this thread is
about ranges. Not wall ovens.

Setting that aside methinks it's quite revealing ***you*** have had issues like this with multiple manufactures that led you to re-negotiate a warranty. If that photo is of your Wolf oven I'm not surprised they refused repair 2.5 years out side your warranty. It looks like you had a spill and then used oven cleaner. You can see clear lines from the edge of the spill, staining from wiping with cleaners that destroyed the finish and pitting from the top down. That has nothing to do with any of the enamel issues in the links you posted or any thing being discussed here. If that was a failure over a burner as you suggest then their would be a distinct pattern that would match the burner.

You should never use oven cleaner in any Self Clean oven. ;)

Again you take what is said and try to twist it to fit your agenda and you reach for vain imaginings and baseless suppositions. I knew that was coming that you would say "if" that was my oven.

"That's odd because you seem to keep suggesting that Wolf has done nothing to fix the issue. You might also consider the topic as this thread is about ranges. Not wall ovens."

I have suggested you read but perhaps it is an issue of comprehension. Again had you read my posts, you would have noted my many posts about the M oven which as said even above was redesigned to address the issue. They have not done this with the E or the DF ranges and as you said above you wish you had the two piece construction. The thread has taken this twist about the blue chipping enamel so the discussion would not be complete without mentioning the wall ovens but if you can't make a proven point, one technique is to set up the straw man.

This is a close up of the damage so you can't see the pattern but suggesting that I must have used oven cleaner because I had a spill is yet another example of baseless accusation. I have never used oven cleaner on this oven. Actually again instead of making a broad generalization, you would need to look at the manufacturers instructions to see if you can use oven cleaner or not.

Yes I have had issues with blue enamel and interestingly they were all different. The many ovens I have owned over the years gas and electric never had any of these issues and were trouble free.

I'll stand on what I have posted. People can read your posts and my posts and make up their own minds.

I've been on this forum for a long time and we have had some vigorous discussions but I have never seen anyone who repeatedly disrespected and disparaged a whole group of people by stating that they must have done something to cause this damage.

Actually, docsknotinn2day's posts reminded me of someone:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3030613/wolf-dual-fuel-or-all-gas-revisiting-the-issue

Even used some of the exact same words like "fear mongering". Perhaps appliancedealer66 has been reincarnated?

Yet another thread the two of you have tried to dominate and railed against any one that doesn't agree with you or more importantly has a different experience. The most revealing post in that thread is by hvtech42;

"Not a Wolf owner"

TFF I seriously doubt I will be the only one wondering why in the last several months/years you have polluted the forums with so much vitriol when by your own admission you have zero experience with the product.

Totally inane.

Docsknotinn2day had a post on the Windows forum that created some friction. That forum is filled with the nicest, most generous guys - many are windows contractors with years of experience. Docs seemed to be asking for advice, but there were issues with tone. I actually came to Docs' defense in my first post on that thread. But there were subsequent contemptuous comments and the like, though Docs went back and edited his/her posts quite a bit to take it down several notches.

I think there are just some posters who want a heated debate; in that Windows thread, I just wished Docs good luck and laughed so as to drop it (not "feed the beast").

Friedajune, I guess docs thought better of their last post here with more name calling so deleted it.

Ahem, back to the original point of the thread....30" gas only slide in ranges......I am also in the market and have never had such a hard time making a decision on an appliance. Maybe that's because the last time I bought a range (15 years ago) it was only $2,200 for my Thermador and it didn't feel like such a major investment. Now I feel like I should be taking out a second mortgage! Or maybe it was because at that time people were raving about Thermador and I didn't worry that I was making a mistake. Now, I can't seem to find a brand that gets consistent positive reviews and high marks across the board in a powerful range top (a/ka pro style). Friends who have a Wolf say it's no better than the rest but it's a status thing. Theirs has broken so many times that they are ready to dump it after only 4 years. The 30" wolf is an odd design. It's small yet they created 3 grates. The small middle one seems out of place. It doesn't come with a telescoping oven rack and the cooktop seems to be small because of the wide metal frame around the burners. I think the design is poor even if it performs well. I loved my Thermador but had to pull my 240 line for my new steam oven so I am switching to an all gas range. I don't like Thermador's star burner design. It might work well but it's cheesy looking. What's next, hearts? mostly, I couldn't stand the clicking on and off when I would simmer and I understand the new Thermadors still have this feature. After 15 years I never got used to it and my guests would always comment on the clicking as I tend to use simmer a lot to warm food when I am entertaining. I also analyzed Bertazzoni, DCS, Viking, Kitchen Aid, Samsung and Jennair. I took price into consideration only minimally because I figured I would have the range another 15 years so I was more concerned with getting the specs I wanted even if I had to pay top dollar.

So after weeks of demos and research, I have finally narrowed it down to 2 that seem to have most of what I need....drum roll please.....the new Dacor RNRP and the new Miele. Both have high BTU's and feel like a 36" packed into a petite 30" frame. what I like most about both is that 3 out of 4 of the burners are the same btu's. I was looking for a true simmer to a power boil and these ranges offer that. I don't want to have to memorize which burner is which. Just give me power on each and allow me to simmer when I need to. They each have a telescoping oven rack and are self cleaning. That's a plus for a pro range. I've scrutinized the quality of each; brass burners and oven doors that have soft close. The cook top seams are nicely done, the knobs have a good hefty feel and the cooktop is seamless and appears easy to clean. The grates feel good too. I know that sounds crazy but I cook and then I clean. And I clean and I clean again. I lift those grates every night. I hate handling rough heavy metal. These 2 ranges have a nice finish on the grates. The knobs are easy to remove and clean as well. Dacor seems to have ironed out a few kinks in previous models and makes their own ranges in California. miele also makes their own ranges but does so in Germany. I will admit I am afraid to pull the trigger even after all this research. Miele is stunning but am I brave enough to be the first one to try it?? Dacor has a nice $250 incentive right now which puts its price more in line with the Miele. Can anyone offer an opinion on either of these ranges? And I hope this info helps you, Sarafinadh. My brain hurts too!

The 30" Wolf DF does come with a slide out oven rack. That's optional in other Wolf models but easy to add. I have some complaints about the Wolf grates as well but not the center one. That's actually quite nice as is the SS sides around the burner. When you get a 30" range that has continuous grates, and there are only 2 grates they can be heavy and awkward. The SS spacer around the burners did seem odd at first though. My biggest complaint with the Wolf grates is the rubber feet. No idea who thought that one up but it's a poor design for sure.

I've never been a Dacor fan as I just don't care for the FF or the knobs. The RNRP ticks a lot of boxes and I can understand why you picked that one. I wanted the same thing, Sliding oven rack, at least 3 burners that were full range and the same BTU, Self Cleaning etc. The price is right up there with a lot of other high end ranges though and I'd pay attention to the service network in your area.

The new Miele has a digital control panel that sets just above the oven door. No matter how well an oven door closes some heat still escapes the seal. It's a fantastic looking product but that control panel longevity would be my concern.

Tough choice. I hope you will post back and let us know which you get and how well it's working.