It's important not to confuse men looking and appreciating a pretty woman, and men thinking that they can harass or touch a woman without their permission. There's a big difference.

All the makeup, plastic surgery, skimpy clothes in the world doesn't mean a woman wants to be harassed or assaulted, or that she is inviting it. I think most people are flattered by polite attention.

Honestly, a lot of women dress and do cosmetic procedures to impress other women, not men.

That must be the change I’m talking about. I don’t know much or even why to impress another woman in a male dominated culture.

I agree women don’t want harassed or touched but I’ve always dressed frumpy.

Also missing is woman slapping women. Many old shows have women slapping or getting slapped by another woman. It was either Dynasty or Falcon Crest was the slap that could be heard around the world.

I wonder how many of the past stars were putting on shows for the public with their sexy pictures and quotes, and what really went on behind the scenes. I bet there are some sad stories.

I’m sure A LOT happened behind the scenes back in the day. And the skeletons are coming out of the closet now....

I’ll probably be flagged for saying this but I’m sure some of the women did what they had to do to get ahead. And I don’t blame the women at all. We had to do what we had to do in those days.

"Honestly, a lot of women dress and do cosmetic procedures to impress other women, not men."

I find this very, very, very hard to believe. Very hard. You're saying strictly hetero women who spend significant effort on their appearance, their clothes and styles, etc., and who dress dramatically/provocatively don't care if men do or don't notice them? Are or aren't attracted? No, that strains credibility.

Because I'm a playful guy, when encountering a woman who appears to be of this sort who is making the rounds at a party or other get together, I'll make an effort to ignore her. INVARIABLY, that will lead to the woman coming up to me on one pretense or another to give me the glance I was avoiding, or a peek down her blouse, etc. You can doubt what I'm saying if you want but it's true.

Sometimes besides dressing to show other women what they can do in some offices if you did not dress in the latest and have the expensive or at least look expensive accessories women were not promotable. Once they reached a certain level then they could wear a two or three years old piece or two but not until then.

I don't doubt you one bit Elmer. You should hear the stuff women like those you describe talk about in the restroom. Some of them make men's locker room talk seem like child's play.

I agree with Elmer on this one. I think women 99% of the time do it for male attention. Definitely.

Present yourself the way you want to be treated. You can be sexy and attractive and turn every head in the room when you walk it without looking like you just came in off the corner. Anyone used to watch What Not to Wear? Stacy and Clinton said that all the time.

" in some offices if you did not dress in the latest and have the expensive or at least look expensive accessories women were not promotable. "

I don't know what kind of businesses you're talking about but having spent a career from the 70s to the 00s in large "offices" of my own company and often spending mega-time at business client offices, I never knew anywhere where this was the case. Nor even close to being the case. Maybe at work places lower down the food chain?

"Present yourself the way you want to be treated. "

I disagree with this too. Sorry. Women who dress provocatively or stylishly, even when doing so in ways inappropriate for the circumstances (as many seem to do) aren't saying "it's okay to paw me, treat me disrespectfully, or think I want to hop into bed with the first thing that comes along".

Doesn't a lot depend on the woman's circumstances? If she's actively looking to form a relationship with a man, of course she hopes (consciously or subconsciously) to attract one. Or many. But not every woman is looking for a man. This could be because she already has one. Are you saying women in happy monogamous relationships still dress to attract men? That doesn't make biological sense to me.

Older women frequently compliment each other on their appearance. I know this because I'm one of them. As I stated in a thread about looking for love after widowhood, I don't want to complicate my life with the altered state that is romantic love. Most of my friends are married. If I go out at night, I dress and wear makeup to make myself feel good. I can count on someone telling me I look beautiful, and it'll most likely be one of my girlfriends. Most of the time I'll return the compliment--and mean it.

It is true that women often dress or alter there appearance for other women. Sadly, being a woman is often a competition. Women know what men like, and they know when another woman has what they don't,and vis versa. That being said,it's not all catty. I don't think I have EVER had a man compliment the cut of my clothes,or point out how lovely I look in whatever color,or notice a subtle change in my hair cut or color as women have. SO has told me that he thinks women like to try to "out clown" each other,with the popularity of hair weaves,make-up,fake nails,fake tans, fake breasts and butts,etc. I agree. Men don't care about a smoky eye,the right label on clothes or your purse, or the perfect highlights. Women are more likely to notice and pick apart (or compliment)such details.

I have had women compliment me (and tease me,if they are familiar with me) over some of my uuumm....."measurements."-top and bottom :/ (No doubt because of the attention they assume they draw from men) I don't think most men would go up to another man,especially a total stranger,and comment on what about their bodies they admire or covet as women have to me.

As far as how to dress, I don't think it matters THAT much. I was at the grocery store Saturday. I wore jeans that fit comfortably and my Yoda t shirt. Nothing sexy or provocative about Yoda. I still had a man stop me in the produce section to tell me I had an "unusually big and beautiful backside for a white woman." (When i say he told me,I mean he told my chest,as thats where his eyes were glued) Charming. I told him thank you and kept moving. A creep will be a creep,no matter how you present yourself. That being said,i will agree that if were wearing shorts that let my butt hang out or a tight,low cut shirt,it would have been harder to get rid of him. Its not an invitation,but its often taken as one. Women should be mindful of that. I enjoy getting compliments. Most people do,not just women. But try not to pant while your giving it will ya?

Based on personal experience (I am 56 now, but well remember my younger years:) I don't believe women who dress in a revealing manner are trying to impress each other. IMO they are trying to compete with each other, mainly for male attention. Eventually, maturity and self-respect kick in for most of us. But some women are either immature or have low self-esteem and continue to compete for male attention, even at more advanced ages. I do, however, agree that expensive shoes and purses are an attempt to make other ladies jealous because most men can't tell the difference between Walmart and Hermes. :)

Well, this cranky old woman attended a Catholic boarding school where modesty was presented as a virtue! We dressed accordingly.

I worked at a large airbase during WW2. It was swarming with young men. Many of them became my friends and sort of looked out for me. If a group of them were laughing at what I surmised was an off-color joke they stopped when I came near.

My red hair did attract attention and on the college campus where I attended before coming to the airbase there were swarms of young military men. They used to lean out the windows and shout, "Hi Red! I, of course ignored them and thought nothing of it. In fact I was taking a very stiff program of 8 hours of classed 6 days a week so had no time for anything else.

I had plenty of dates and with only one exception in over three years at the air base all were gentlemen. I will say that most of the young women did not dress in sexy attire. In fact the word "sexy" was never used in polite company.

My, how times have changed!!!

seniorgal, I don't think everyone of your era had the same experiences you had. I remember a conversation with my mother (born in the 19-teens) we had when I was still in high school, in the late 60s. It was roughly about "don't think that your generation invented the sexual revolution, you didn't. And mine didn't either". She told me about her experiences as an Army lieutenant during WW2, Young men and women in uniform were excited but also scared, away from home (some very far so and for the first time), serving for what they thought was a noble cause, not knowing if they would live to see their next birthdays. She wasn't footloose and fancy free, she was young and human. The men in the military were too.

Why did so many US servicemen come home from the war and occupation years with brides from areas where they'd been stationed in the US or abroad, the latter the so-called foreign born "war brides"? It wasn't because they'd met women and decided to get married after only first having had coffee and doughnuts together at a USO canteen.

Some servicemen married days or weeks before being sent overseas, and others had relationships but expressly didn't get married until they got back, if their girlfriends waited for their return. Many didn't. The reasons in these cases are different but obvious and related.

I respect your perspective. My point is, in some respects, times haven't changed at all. My mother told me so.

I do believe there are a lot of college-age girls who are not quite sure what they want. They wear skirts that are shorter than any "short-shorts" I ever wore in my long-passed youth. The wear tight, skimpy tops. They wear very high heels of some sort.

They then go to fraternity parties and have a great deal to drink - enough that removes all inhibitions. Then they dance provocatively and when talking to a young man, do a lot of touching him on his arms, legs, neck etc. To most testosterone- driven young men, this is seen as some sort of indication of interest/willingness to move right along. Young men are rather simple creatures. When they make an approach that they think is what was desired, the young women often react like Victorian virgins.

There was a name for such girls when I was in college. Most boys detested girls that led them on and then became outraged.

Many young women claim they want the same freedom as young men - to have as much casual sex as they want with no blaming/shaming. But is this what they really want, or do they prefer to just drive the young men crazy? I think young men today must be very confused and scared to death.

For years I've been dressing first so I don;t embarrass my DH, (not really, but) and then to fit in with what the other women are wearing at whatever event we're attending. Dress for men? why, they don't care what I'm wearing.

When I was in my 20's I dressed appropriately for work. Outside of work I was very honest about myself, no matter what I wore or didn't wear men were not looking at me.

I agree with Chi and Alisande on this one. I think women dress to impress other women, not men. Unless they are actively searching for a romantic "time". I get a manicure every two weeks, a pedicure when needed, color my hair and have a cute haircut (at least I think so). Wear cute age appropriate clothes. And guess who notices? Not my husband!! My girlfriends notice, and compliment me. I'm sure my husband notices on some level, but rarely do I get complimented. Even when I put makeup on, which is rare because I don't wear much.

I think it can be both. Depending on your circumstances. Young women looking for a relationship might dress a certain way.

Women who dress provocatively, I am not sure what is going on in their heads and what they are trying to accomplish.

Women are more free with compliments. Again it might be the climate of today.

I know that I enjoy choosing an outfit when I am going out with girlfriends. DH is a simple guy, so uninterested in clothes. I have to beg him to go shopping. He likes me in simple clothes, so if I save my trendy, more colorful things for work or when going out with friends.

As a young teen, I felt very uncomfortable with whistles and cat calls. And, trust me my usual mode of dress was jeans and a tee shirt.

I often wonder why we speak in such generalities, as in "women do this" or "men think that". We humans are much more complex than that and the comments that resonate the most for me are when people talk about their own reasons for doing things and not for someone else's perceptions for why people are dressing in a certain way. I feel the only person you can be absolutely sure you know why they dress a certain way is you.

I am influenced by the context or the situation, therefore I try to dress comfortably but casually, fancy, or business depending on what I perceive will be appropriate. My DH and I check in with each other about color and fit when we feel a need for advice.

I compliment both men and women on how they look. My DH says he compliments only women that he knows well and won't misconstrue his reasons for saying something.

My only observation to add here is that when my DD was in high school, she felt the pressure (from TV, movies, & magazines aimed at her age group, as well as some of her peers) to be "sexy" in the way that they were defining it -- revealing, tight clothes. She wasn't totally comfortable with the tight, short shorts, midriff baring tops, low cut tanks -- but wanted to fit in and meet what she though was the norm for her age group. She totally bought the idea that if she wasn't "sexy" then she was of lesser value. Thank goodness she grew out of that phase. It seems that a fair number of women never did.

I don’t know who is ‘missing’ women slapping women. I sure am not missing it. Never got that. Why? And women acting so sexy around men? That always just made me somewhat uncomfortable. It’s different from playful flirting back when we were single, younger and at parties in a big way. Movies are not real life.

The majority of professional women I have been associated with in my lifetime have dressed, worn makeup and presented themselves as they would like to be perceived by those around them....as professionals. Yet you always ran across a few who weren’t exactly like that, and shame on them for giving the rest a bad name. That goes for men as well as women, but somehow it was always the woman who was guilty because she worse a tight fitting dress or too much makeup, not a business suit.

Most workplaces these days have gotten far more casual than they were 20years ago. I remember wearing nothing but skirts and jackets and an occasional pantsuit in the 80’s and 90’s. Now it’s very unusual in most environments except very specific situations to see that every single day. We women don’t wear jeans to work, but funny thing is, I see guys wearing jeans and dressing in very casual attire all the time. I personally enjoy clothing that is mostly classic but stylish and up to date. And I get compliments from women on how well I wear my clothing. Not from men, who I think don’t usually know how to, and are now afraid to, pay compliments to women except in generalities.

And then there’s the surgical enhancements, Botox and such. Who cares? Really? I once thought I would never do such a thing, but then I had eyelid surgery and looked so much better I can’t fault anyone ever again for doing what they want to do to maintain a healthy look. And I think for many it is a confidence thing.

Outside...speaking of confidence. ..I once heard my FIL say the sexiest thing any woman can wear is confidence.

I think many adults lack self confidence due to their childhood --- neglect, being abused, being ridiculed for appearance ...too fat, too thin, too short, too tall etc., etc. As a result of low self esteem, it may be that one looks for approval from others by trying too hard to fit in for fear of being criticized. As a result the choices made, may not be the best ones for the individual.

It's a COMPETITION. Women dress for other women to SHOW OFF!! They dress for men to show women the control THEY can conjure. Bottom line women are as diverse as any other creature. Some are really into the sexy thing, other's not so much. They prefer to compete intellectually. Some were in the race until they found their mate. Other's need the adulation 24/7 for the rest of their lives. Some of us are just not competitors. Women cannot be put in a box as a single type. It would be most helpful if as a woman each were comfortable with who they are and not feel less than ever. I just hope for their sake, those that trade in the physical do it w/o cost to their self. But I don't believe it's possible.

I was thinking about this thread today while I was at the mall. For the most part the women were nicely dressed. Clothes were clean and were put together to create an outfit and were age appropriate.

I happened to notice one female who was wearing Daisy Dukes and a frilly shirt tied up under her chest. She happened to be knock-kneed with slightly thick thighs and a bit of a protruding tummy with long curly hair and she was texting. I honestly thought she was a tween or teenager who hadn't quite finished growing out of the thicker thighs and slightly protruding tummy which many of that age display. No criticism just an observance. However, when she looked up I was surprised to see that she was probably in her late 40's. And then I thought - well each to her own, daisy dukes and all!

5 years ago when I was 57 a car with young men gave me wolf whistles. I am tall and most of it is legs. At the time I was thin. I was a tourist walking the strip in Virginia Beach shopping one afternoon. There was a car that came up the street from behind me and the young men started wolf whistling before they passed me. I had to look around to see who they were whistling at and was surprised that it was me. I was the only one around. I'm sure they were embarrassed when they passed me and found out I was an old lady, but it sure made my day.

This will give you a chuckle. I attended a private Catholic school from grade 1 to 12. There were only 32 girls in the class and we were very protected and naive. Fast forward to when I turn 14 and decide to hit Boston and get my working papers so we could get summer jobs at Filene's. My friend Pat and I started applying and the first application we got we were told to sit in an adjacent room and fill it out. I read the fourth line and it said SEX with two sets of parenthesis. Remember I never heard that word in my life so Pat said to me "what are you going to write" and I said NO. So we both filled it in that way. Upon landing back home we asked Pat's mother what it meant and she told us. she asked what we wrote and we both said NO. I thought she was going to choke laughing. Boy times have changed. Btw our nuns called it genders.

Well, I can see why many women might not want to meet you, with an attitude like that.

That responder signed up wth Houzz just to post that comment........I'd suspect a troll :-)

Or an incel.

Back in the day sexual appeal was all women were allowed to use so they did. You want to go to Harvard? You want to be a doctor, lawyer, CEO? The ceiling wasn't glass, it was stainless steel. We have other options now. Don't throw that away. If you want to be known for your T and A so be it but you will limit where you can get. If you want to be CEO of the company Tand A is not going to get you there, you can be the mistress of the CEO. It depends on what you want out of life.

gardengal, that's a name that's been around? Oh, not the OP. Got it.

Lucille, my son reads a subredit about those sorts. I had no idea what he was talking about. If not for my young adult son, I would never have heard of them. How did you know that name?

Rob333, the "incel" type person has been discussed within discussions on mass shootings in the US. I'm sure I've heard about it on NPR and in socio-political blogs, and in newspaper columns. The term is around and out there, not a rare word now.

I’m impressed that you know about incels Lucille. High five!

rob, here are a couple of recent articles on incels:

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/the-rage-of-the-incels

https://www.thecut.com/2019/05/incel-plastic-surgery.html

I didn't know the term. I've got to get caught up on my pile of New Yorkers, lol! Thanks for posting this...I knew what they were, just not that there was a "special" name for them besides jerk.

Chi: Well spoken. You seem to be an astute observer of the human creature.

Wow - I have to say that this conversation surprises me.

I’ve been told I’m attractive, have certain assets I try and minimize, love clothing and dress well but never “sexy” - especially at, or around work.

I also have been in business to business sales for almost 30 years, have dyslexia but graduated college with two majors in four years, have an IQ in the 130’s and call on top ten clients in my industries.

I didn’t do any of this by “being pretty” or “using my assets”. Instead I worked my ass off. And throughout my hard work I’ve dealt with others (mostly men) trying to box my progression into their definition of what I should be.

Getting unwanted massages at an internship my senior year in college

Not married until my 40’s meant years of being asked if I was gay.

A client meeting in my mid 30’s with two men and a woman when I asked if there was anything else they needed, getting the answer “ I guess sex is out of the question” heehee

Being told not to be so aggressive by SALES managers

Being told, and then fired by, a young male manager who said sales has changed and older people don’t understand how it works now

And the women who keep talking about how we try to impress others and be sexy to get things and how we dress means we invite others to treat us certain ways ALL are part of the problem.

People who want to dominate and push others down do so through two channels. The first channel is direct where their actions lead to their goal. The second channel is by manipulating society into also talking about things in way that supports their goal.

This really struck a nerve for me.

ETA - I’ve also had plastic surgery and procedures that make ME happy.

Rob the word incel is mainstream now, have seen it in newspapers (and had to look it up the first time I saw it).

My view of this term is that real life influences what's in mass market "popular culture", not the other way around. Everyone seems to have their own made up words. Is using them a sign of trying to be cool or with-it ? Even extremists like Bannon and Miller in the far right have and use their own terms as if they were something special. Others do too.

Life goes on outside the pages of the internet, Fox News, and the New Yorker, among others.

I hesitated to comment in this needlessly resurrected old thread but the discussion of this silly term was too much a lure to avoid. Using it or not (or any of the others as well) doesn't mark anyone as being in the in-crowd or the out-crowd.

Elmer -- My 'take', too.

I missed last years date on the OP